Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1...

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Re: Zach Lowe: 

Post#61 » by bondom34 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:23 pm

KayDee35 wrote:
bondom34 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:2) I don't think it makes sense to praise a player leading a mediocre team by playing in a style that caused the conflicts that resulted in the team losing its other big talent. You want to say Westbrook is the MVP because of what he does when he's on the floor, cool, but the team has nothing else left precisely because of the way He sucks up all the oxygen in the room.


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This isn't true. And I don't even have Westbrook as MVP.

But continually spreading this idea is a falsehood considering now the player he sucked said oxygen from is doing the same in a new place.


Let me get this straight: A guy who is posting a higher TS% than LeBron's best season, is 2nd in WS/48, 2nd in total WS, 5th in DWS, 7th in DRtg, 5th in VORP, 10th in Blocks, and 5th in RPM on the lowest USG% of his career is sucking air out of the room?

If Durant is sucking all the oxygen then you must be thrilled that he chose to leave. Sounds like OKC dodged a bullet. Now GS is stuck with this bum. SAD!

I didn't say he was a bum. But the argument that Westbrook is the one making OKC's offense run that way is patently false.
http://www.espn.com/blog/okc-thunder/post/_/id/1062/thunders-kevin-durant-were-not-the-spurs-nor-should-they-be
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/kevin-durant-defends-okcs-iso-ball-if-ive-got-it-im-going-to-work/

To add to that, Durant running isos in Golden State despite causing direct conflict with teammates this season. Seems maybe if he's sucking the air out of the room, Durant was doing the same.
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Re: Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1... 

Post#62 » by KayDee35 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:27 pm

inDe_eD wrote:
Blame Rasho wrote:I love him more than a fish loves water , but by saying that you are marginalizing the historic seasons that Westbrook and Harden are doing.


You really think so? Kawhi's going to be very close to 50-40-90, with 26 PPG, on the best defensive team in the league, that happens to also win 63 games. That's pretty historic in its own right, no?


Durant's also going to be around the 50-40-90 mark with 26 PPG on the 2nd best defensive team in the league that is going to win more games. I don't think his season will be considered historic.

Harden and WB are making the statistical argument. LeBron are Kawhi can be argued for on impact and the historical standard of being one of the best teams in the league.
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Re: Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1... 

Post#63 » by inDe_eD » Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:30 pm

KayDee35 wrote:
inDe_eD wrote:
Blame Rasho wrote:I love him more than a fish loves water , but by saying that you are marginalizing the historic seasons that Westbrook and Harden are doing.


You really think so? Kawhi's going to be very close to 50-40-90, with 26 PPG, on the best defensive team in the league, that happens to also win 63 games. That's pretty historic in its own right, no?


Durant's also going to be around the 50-40-90 mark with 26 PPG on the 2nd best defensive team in the league that is going to win more games. I don't think his season will be considered historic.

Harden and WB are making the statistical argument. LeBron are Kawhi can be argued for on impact and the historical standard of being one of the best teams in the league.


Of course it's going to be historic. The problem for Durant is, he may not even be the MVP of his own team. He's going to get far less credit for how historic the Warriors are this year than Kawhi will for the Spurs, if that makes sense.
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Re: Zach Lowe: 

Post#64 » by KayDee35 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:57 pm

bondom34 wrote:
KayDee35 wrote:
bondom34 wrote:This isn't true. And I don't even have Westbrook as MVP.

But continually spreading this idea is a falsehood considering now the player he sucked said oxygen from is doing the same in a new place.


Let me get this straight: A guy who is posting a higher TS% than LeBron's best season, is 2nd in WS/48, 2nd in total WS, 5th in DWS, 7th in DRtg, 5th in VORP, 10th in Blocks, and 5th in RPM on the lowest USG% of his career is sucking air out of the room?

If Durant is sucking all the oxygen then you must be thrilled that he chose to leave. Sounds like OKC dodged a bullet. Now GS is stuck with this bum. SAD!

I didn't say he was a bum. But the argument that Westbrook is the one making OKC's offense run that way is patently false.
http://www.espn.com/blog/okc-thunder/post/_/id/1062/thunders-kevin-durant-were-not-the-spurs-nor-should-they-be
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/kevin-durant-defends-okcs-iso-ball-if-ive-got-it-im-going-to-work/

To add to that, Durant running isos in Golden State despite causing direct conflict with teammates this season. Seems maybe if he's sucking the air out of the room, Durant was doing the same.


Durant's improvement in TS% is directly related to running fewer iso's. He might do it more than he should but he's way down from his tenure with OKC. His conflicts are mostly with Dray which gets resolved later and also results in KD's improvement.

Image

Citing those articles as justification for the poor OKC offense is not good enough. OKC was -1 in all the 4th quarters combined last season, iirc. Fans constantly complained about how poorly they closed game. Didn't they set a record for most blown 4th quarter leads?

WB thrives in a system like that but KD does not. Ironically, KD is having his best all-around season this year and WB is having his best season. They just happen to be in situations that utilize their strengths.

They were not a good combo. They did it on talent mostly. This year's KD is a team player who is having a huge impact on both sides of the ball and posting a season comparable to Kawhi and LeBron while playing on a loaded team with no major injuries.

Some advanced stats (RPM, for e.g.,) show KD and WB having a similar impact, which is mind boggling considering WB's historical usage. And they are not that far apart on some other stats (PER, for e.g.,) which is also rather impressive.

KD relies on efficiency and defensive impact for his value while WB relies on high usage and energy for his impact. Those two types of players don't usually work well together when they are the top dogs. See Kobe-Shaq in their Finals against the Pistons for reference.
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Re: Zach Lowe: 

Post#65 » by bondom34 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 5:06 pm

KayDee35 wrote:Citing those articles as justification for the poor OKC offense is not good enough. OKC was -1 in all the 4th quarters combined last season, iirc. Fans constantly complained about how poorly they closed game. Didn't they set a record for most blown 4th quarter leads?

WB thrives in a system like that but KD does not. Ironically, KD is having his best all-around season this year and WB is having his best season. They just happen to be in situations that utilize their strengths.

They were not a good combo. They did it on talent mostly. This year's KD is a team player who is having a huge impact on both sides of the ball and posting a season comparable to Kawhi and LeBron while playing on a loaded team with no major injuries.

Some advanced stats (RPM, for e.g.,) show KD and WB having a similar impact, which is mind boggling considering WB's historical usage. And they are not that far apart on some other stats (PER, for e.g.,) which is also rather impressive.

KD relies on efficiency and defensive impact for his value while WB relies on high usage and energy for his impact. Those two types of players don't usually work well together when they are the top dogs. See Kobe-Shaq in their Finals against the Pistons for reference.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. This year (without Durant) OKC leads the league in clutch net rating last I checked. KD actually actively stated he liked the system. KD continues to iso in Golden State, despite his teammates not liking it. Saying Westbrook is to blame for Durant leaving doesn't add up. It brings a totally irrelevant point into a conversation and stirs up a rather sore point at the same time. The two are unrelated. If you want to blame having a worse overall roster, fine. But that's not the spot.

Also, impact and usage aren't related. Never have been, never will be.
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Re: Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1... 

Post#66 » by Braggins » Thu Feb 16, 2017 5:27 pm

Hes probably the 3rd best player after Lebron and barely behind Durant, but I do think he deserves the MVP award this season.
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Re: Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1... 

Post#67 » by blitz41 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 5:52 pm

If the current situation extends to the end of the year I think this is gonna be an odd voting result, and im gonna go out on a limb and say LBJ wins cuz of 2nd and 3rd place votes. As in the first place votes will be split among the leading candidates (lbj will prob get some too) but while they might pick someone in first over lbj, i feel alot of voters will default back onto him for their 2nd/3rd place votes
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Re: Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1... 

Post#68 » by bklynspursfan » Thu Feb 16, 2017 5:56 pm

oaktownwarriors87 wrote:Replace him with Paul George and they still win 60.

That being said he's still the MVP


not a chance
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Re: Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1... 

Post#69 » by Rust_Cohle » Thu Feb 16, 2017 6:02 pm

oaktownwarriors87 wrote:Replace him with Paul George and they still win 60.

That being said he's still the MVP


No, they don't.

PG13 is awesome, but he has many games where he shoots 5/16 or 5/20. He isn't nearly as efficient as Kawhi, Kawhi is hovering around the elite 50-40-90 mark offensively.

PG is a hell of a player, but I think the Spurs team is 50-55 wins with him instead of Kawhi.

Again, SA's supporting cast after Kawhi is pretty overrated.
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Re: Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1... 

Post#70 » by Chinook » Thu Feb 16, 2017 6:12 pm

The real value for Kawhi is the ceiling he gives the Spurs, not the current output. PG might get able to get the Spurs to 60 wins, but Kawhi is how they have a chance to win a title. Massive difference.

(Of course, a dominant Aldridge is the main key to the Spurs trying to beat GS and CLE, but that's only because MVP Kawhi has to be assumed.)

This may well come down to H2H's. The Spurs are 5-1 against teams with other likely MVP candidates (7-1 if you're one of those folks who puts Thomas there). If SAS goes 9-3/11-3 in those games, it's going to come up, even if shouldn't. Without looking, I assume that would be the best record. In a race as close like this, any little thing can tip the balance.
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Re: Zach Lowe: 

Post#71 » by Bergmaniac » Thu Feb 16, 2017 6:13 pm

KayDee35 wrote:KD relies on efficiency and defensive impact for his value while WB relies on high usage and energy for his impact. Those two types of players don't usually work well together when they are the top dogs. See Kobe-Shaq in their Finals against the Pistons for reference.

So the three-peat they achieved earlier doesn't count? 8-)

Durant's improvement in TS% is directly related to running fewer iso's. He might do it more than he should but he's way down from his tenure with OKC.

He runs fewer ISOs because his team is stacked and has a bunch of great passers. of course he'd take more good shots on the most stacked team ever. Not sure how that proves that he and Westbrook were a bad duo.

Citing those articles as justification for the poor OKC offense is not good enough. OKC was -1 in all the 4th quarters combined last season, iirc. Fans constantly complained about how poorly they closed game. Didn't they set a record for most blown 4th quarter leads?

They played the same way in the clutch in previous seasons and were way better. Plus most of their problems were on defense, not offensively. They couldn't stop anyone in the clutch in most regular season games.

Also Warriors are way worse in the clutch this season compared to the last. OKC are way better.
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Re: Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1... 

Post#72 » by r0drig0lac » Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:00 pm

oaktownwarriors87 wrote:Replace him with Paul George and they still win 60.

That being said he's still the MVP

ye.... no way
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Re: Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1... 

Post#73 » by sanitylaker » Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:03 pm

oaktownwarriors87 wrote:Replace him with Paul George and they still win 60.

That being said he's still the MVP


Replace Curry with Lillard and GS still wins 60+

That works both ways.
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Re: Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1... 

Post#74 » by oaktownwarriors87 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:02 pm

sanitylaker wrote:
oaktownwarriors87 wrote:Replace him with Paul George and they still win 60.

That being said he's still the MVP


Replace Curry with Lillard and GS still wins 60+

That works both ways.


It's true, they would
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Re: Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1... 

Post#75 » by Edrees » Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:12 pm

Winsome Gerbil wrote:
manou wrote:I really think spurs without him would fight for the 8th spot.



That's never been true of the Spurs, ever, without any player.

But even if it is true, and Kawhi is certainly a great player so it could be, that's the whole point. The Spurs without Kawhi are still a playoff caliber team, just no longer a threat. The Thunder without Westbrook might not win 30. The entire Houston system is built around Harden. Kawhi is merely the biggest part of the San Antonio system that predates him and would go on without him.


If the Spurs didn't have him and were at the 8th seed, that's a 18 game dropoff. If Thunder lost 18 more games without westbrook they'd actually have just 14 wins heading into the all star break, The thunder aren't that bad without Westbrook. Leonard is more valuable to his team.

Leonard produces a lot more wins for the Spurs than westbrook does for the thunder. And probably around the same amount Harden does for the Rockets. Offensively he's just a little worse than those guys but defensively he is leagues ahead. That's why I'd take him for MVP.

He was my MVP prediction before the season started, as well.
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Re: Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1... 

Post#76 » by E-Balla » Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:20 pm

MVP standings to me:
1. Lebron
2. Lowry
3. Westbrook
4. Wall
5. Curry
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Re: Zach Lowe: 

Post#77 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:33 pm

bondom34 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:2) I don't think it makes sense to praise a player leading a mediocre team by playing in a style that caused the conflicts that resulted in the team losing its other big talent. You want to say Westbrook is the MVP because of what he does when he's on the floor, cool, but the team has nothing else left precisely because of the way He sucks up all the oxygen in the room.


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This isn't true. And I don't even have Westbrook as MVP.

But continually spreading this idea is a falsehood considering now the player he sucked said oxygen from is doing the same in a new place.


It's hyperbole of course, but I don't have a better way of describing how Durant felt.
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Re: Zach Lowe: 

Post#78 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:39 pm

KayDee35 wrote:
bondom34 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:2) I don't think it makes sense to praise a player leading a mediocre team by playing in a style that caused the conflicts that resulted in the team losing its other big talent. You want to say Westbrook is the MVP because of what he does when he's on the floor, cool, but the team has nothing else left precisely because of the way He sucks up all the oxygen in the room.


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This isn't true. And I don't even have Westbrook as MVP.

But continually spreading this idea is a falsehood considering now the player he sucked said oxygen from is doing the same in a new place.


Let me get this straight: A guy who is posting a higher TS% than LeBron's best season, is 2nd in WS/48, 2nd in total WS, 5th in DWS, 7th in DRtg, 5th in VORP, 10th in Blocks, and 5th in RPM on the lowest USG% of his career is sucking air out of the room?

If Durant is sucking all the oxygen then you must be thrilled that he chose to leave. Sounds like OKC dodged a bullet. Now GS is stuck with this bum. SAD!


You need to read more carefully.

bondom didn't say it, I did, and I was referring to Westbrook not Durant.
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Re: Zach Lowe: 

Post#79 » by E-Balla » Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:42 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
bondom34 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:2) I don't think it makes sense to praise a player leading a mediocre team by playing in a style that caused the conflicts that resulted in the team losing its other big talent. You want to say Westbrook is the MVP because of what he does when he's on the floor, cool, but the team has nothing else left precisely because of the way He sucks up all the oxygen in the room.


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This isn't true. And I don't even have Westbrook as MVP.

But continually spreading this idea is a falsehood considering now the player he sucked said oxygen from is doing the same in a new place.


It's hyperbole of course, but I don't have a better way of describing how Durant felt.

Why does how Durant feel even matter? Shaq felt like Penny was "sucking the oxygen out the room" but did that make him right or a big baby?
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Re: Zach Lowe: 

Post#80 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:56 pm

E-Balla wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
bondom34 wrote:This isn't true. And I don't even have Westbrook as MVP.

But continually spreading this idea is a falsehood considering now the player he sucked said oxygen from is doing the same in a new place.


It's hyperbole of course, but I don't have a better way of describing how Durant felt.

Why does how Durant feel even matter? Shaq felt like Penny was "sucking the oxygen out the room" but did that make him right or a big baby?


Uh, because the most talented player in OKC's history left OKC and thus ensured that OKC may never win a championship and likely won't even be much beyond mediocre for a good while to come.

If Westbrook is never on OKC, it's entirely possible OKC still has Durant & Harden and is in a lot better shape than it is now.

So yeah, how a star makes the players around him feel matters. Feel free to knock Durant for being whatever you see him as, feel free to point out how afraid he was to evidently make clear his feelings to OKC earlier, the fact of the matter remains that he switched teams because he wasn't in love with how Westbrook dictated the team's on-court strategy, and that needs to be considered before we blindly say "Wow, look at what Westbrook is doing without talent around him!"

I will say, I do feel like a jerk saying this stuff. It's a kind of "I told you so" because I warned about this stuff for years, and worse, it could have easily not happened - so it's like I"m taking credit for prescience when I didn't know what would happen any more than anyone else. But if people are going to talk about Westbrook's teammates like it's unfair to him (or that others are lucky they have better teammates), it needs to be brought up.
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