Are Non-American Players More Well-Behaved?

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Re: Are Non-American Players More Well-Behaved? 

Post#61 » by NZB2323 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:58 pm

Synciere wrote:
NZB2323 wrote:
Synciere wrote:
The fact that there are white American players or black foreign players doesn't mean this isn't about race. Again, I pointed out other sports which are predominantly white who have as much if not more violence associated without regards to play and they are not vilified in the same way. They are not described in the same way. This question, whether right or wrong, is never even brought up in those sports. If you would like to use examples that transcend sports, look at the descriptions that describe white bikers brawling or riots after championships in Canada vs. riots of African Americans here in the States. Look at the descriptions.

Listen, it's not right, it's not the way we want it to be, but putting our heads in the sand and pointing out single exceptions does not invalidate what does or doesn't exist in regards to race.


So we can't have a discussion about technical fouls, off-court issues, and how Americans act because these discussions aren't happening on the MLB board or NHL board? :crazy: :lol:


Not what I said. I said it says something that those conversations do not happen on those boards, in spite of the fact that similar or worse behavior is displayed.


Okay...why do I care what people who are baseball or hockey fans discuss? I can't name 10 players in the MLB or the NHL. This discussion is about NBA players(and Americans in general) and the lack of conversations(apparently) from MLB or NHL fans doesn't make this thread "all about race."

Also, you're the one who brought up the word "thug," when other people are discussing how nationalistic American tourists are, how American players have more technical fouls, and how foreign players(most who are black) seem like better role models.
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Re: Are Non-American Players More Well-Behaved? 

Post#62 » by jwise44 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:00 pm

2LeTTeRS wrote:I'm not so sure I'd classify Batum as well behaved......

You better classify him that way or he'll give you a swift shot to the sack
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Re: Are Non-American Players More Well-Behaved? 

Post#63 » by Synciere » Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:10 pm

NZB2323 wrote:
Synciere wrote:
NZB2323 wrote:
So we can't have a discussion about technical fouls, off-court issues, and how Americans act because these discussions aren't happening on the MLB board or NHL board? :crazy: :lol:


Not what I said. I said it says something that those conversations do not happen on those boards, in spite of the fact that similar or worse behavior is displayed.


Okay...why do I care what people who are baseball or hockey fans discuss? I can't name 10 players in the MLB or the NHL. This discussion is about NBA players(and Americans in general) and the lack of conversations(apparently) from MLB or NHL fans doesn't make this thread "all about race."

Also, you're the one who brought up the word "thug," when other people are discussing how nationalistic American tourists are, how American players have more technical fouls, and how foreign players(most who are black) seem like better role models.


I don't care about those sports in a vacuum either. That's not the point. This thread is about the portrayal of American born players in the NBA, 70% of whom are African American, vs. the portrayal of foreign born players, 70% of whom are white. When comparing, you have to point out the main differences in the two groups in order to get an understanding. The main difference is race. To further that point, I've pointed out other sports, because while not the same thing, it is a similar/like comparison. Denying these factors is willful ignorance.
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Re: Are Non-American Players More Well-Behaved? 

Post#64 » by azwfan » Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:16 pm

Black Jack wrote:
azwfan wrote:
Soupman wrote:
Patriotic = I love my country.
Arrogant = My country is awesome and every other country is trash.

Patriotism is often confused with nationalism.


There's feelings to the left and right and everything in between. I see it as a scale. "I hate my country" "I don't love my country." "I don't know how I feel" "I love my country". "I love my country, and its the best - but other countries have some good qualities too." "I love my country, its the best, and don't know and don't want to know, a darn thing about any other country." "I love my country its the best, rest of the world is trash." "I love my country, its the best, and we should rule the world."

The difference between American culture and a lot of other countries? Our culture is one of "i love my country, its the best..." and start going to the right from there. From my experience, other countries (not China - China is more nationalist than USA is) they start at, "I love my country". Obviously, this doesn't cover everyone in the USA. I think people that travel more are more likely to not be raging nationalists. And like someone said earlier, only 30 something % of the USA has a passport.

I would say "I love my country" (patriotism) is required in order to even have a country. "Its the best" - well I think we can objectively see how that is going to be perceived as arrogant to others who love their country but don't feel the need to rate it as the best or worst or at all.

na·tion·al·ism
ˈnaSH(ə)nəˌlizəm/
noun
patriotic feeling, principles, or efforts.
synonyms: patriotism, patriotic sentiment, flag-waving, xenophobia, chauvinism, jingoism
"their extreme nationalism was frightening"
an extreme form of this, especially marked by a feeling of superiority over other countries.


Al Franken had a good line...conservatives love their country like a small child loves their parent: uncritically, almost worshipful, without seeing any possible wrong. Liberals love their country like a spouse sees their longtime partner: with great care, while seeing the faults and accepting them.


This may be a liberal / conservative thing it may not - I don't know. I consider myself on the liberal side of center, and grew up in the Bay area - son to very liberal parents... and I grew up thinking America was the best also; so I'm not sure that at least when i was growing up this was a feeling that was liberal / conservative dividing. It wasn't until i gained more perspective through international travel that my perspective changed.

Although i've probably traveled more than some, I haven't seen the majority of the United States, so I am hardly an expert on the heartbeat of the nation. I've also never been to Europe or Africa, so I don't have a clue how they view Americans.
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Re: Are Non-American Players More Well-Behaved? 

Post#65 » by tidho » Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:27 pm

Synciere wrote:I don't care about those sports in a vacuum either. That's not the point. This thread is about the portrayal of American born players in the NBA, 70% of whom are African American, vs. the portrayal of foreign born players, 70% of whom are white. When comparing, you have to point out the main differences in the two groups in order to get an understanding. The main difference is race. To further that point, I've pointed out other sports, because while not the same thing, it is a similar/like comparison. Denying these factors is willful ignorance.

The main difference between those two groups isn't race.

The main difference is culture, which is way too often confused with race. Interestingly enough this confusion seems to be more prevalent in the US, where there are political motives to encourage that confusion (won't deep dive that one here though).

The perceived 'bad behavior' we seem to be referencing isn't a function of nationality, or even skin color, its a function of attitude. Easily evidenced by extreme examples like Grant Hill or David Robinson.

The culture players grow up in shape how they treat others, how they expect to be treated, and how they respond to adversity. These factors provide behavioral direction that a player can either choose to follow.
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Re: Are Non-American Players More Well-Behaved? 

Post#66 » by Synciere » Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:08 pm

tidho wrote:
Synciere wrote:I don't care about those sports in a vacuum either. That's not the point. This thread is about the portrayal of American born players in the NBA, 70% of whom are African American, vs. the portrayal of foreign born players, 70% of whom are white. When comparing, you have to point out the main differences in the two groups in order to get an understanding. The main difference is race. To further that point, I've pointed out other sports, because while not the same thing, it is a similar/like comparison. Denying these factors is willful ignorance.

The main difference between those two groups isn't race.

The main difference is culture, which is way too often confused with race. Interestingly enough this confusion seems to be more prevalent in the US, where there are political motives to encourage that confusion (won't deep dive that one here though).

The perceived 'bad behavior' we seem to be referencing isn't a function of nationality, or even skin color, its a function of attitude. Easily evidenced by extreme examples like Grant Hill or David Robinson.

The culture players grow up in shape how they treat others, how they expect to be treated, and how they respond to adversity. These factors provide behavioral direction that a player can either choose to follow.


No, the main difference is NOT culture. Foreign born players come from some 30+ countries? Someone knows the exact number. All of those countries could and do have different cultures. The OP didn't ask the difference between the players in the Spanish and French leagues. THAT would be culture. The differences in culture are at least twentyfold then.

Again, pointing out exceptions in singular forms like Duncan or Hill or Robinson does not dispel the overall notion that non-American players are or are not more well behaved, which is the original question. Just the fact that this question can and is asked in a basketball forum..... Never mind...

Keep grasping at straws.
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Re: Are Non-American Players More Well-Behaved? 

Post#67 » by capwolf » Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:23 pm

GlenRiceARoni wrote:I would agree that this is a nature vs nurture type thing.

Its not bc they are black that they are poorly behaved its due to socioeconomic factors that basketball is predominantly played by poor people.

And it is played much more aggressively by people trying to escape their environment. How many times have you seen the suburban kid tense up playing in urban parks and he can barely hit the rim because hes squeezing his b-cheeks so tight?

We are seeing it become less ghetto over the years though as kids get identified earlier and are put down a more traditional, professional like career path to enhance their brand.

A lot of NBA players are actually pretty intelligent and that's definitely something that couldnt be said in the 70s and 80s.

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So although this has been civil discourse...you are going to go full racist huh?

Basketball is not predominantly played by poor people....why is it that when I'm driving through the suburbs everyone has a hoop in the driveway? Everyone plays basketball so that's your first ignorant statement.
I guess Kevin Love and Bill Bradley and Zaza Pachulia and Grant Hill and Kobe Bryant and Klay Thompson and James Michael Mcadoo and Steph Curry and Larry Nance Jr. are all noncompetitve players...You know, since they all grew up with money. Second dumb ass statement.
Thirdly using ghetto as a perjorative illustrates your perspective and level of ignorance. Hate to break it to you the vast vast majority of people that live in the 'ghetto' are hard working law abiding people.

You sound so ignorant...and it's probably against the rules for me to call you an idiot, so I wont, but let me say you wrote the things that I would normally attribute to a stupid idiot.
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Re: Are Non-American Players More Well-Behaved? 

Post#68 » by capwolf » Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:24 pm

Pennebaker wrote:Depends on what you think "Well-Behaved" means.

I'd agree that non-American players are more fearful of authority. Americans encourage independent spirits, so we probably have a different definition of what can be considered "well-behaved".


You've obviously never watched a Man City versus Man U game.
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Re: Are Non-American Players More Well-Behaved? 

Post#69 » by capwolf » Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:33 pm

tidho wrote:
Synciere wrote:I don't care about those sports in a vacuum either. That's not the point. This thread is about the portrayal of American born players in the NBA, 70% of whom are African American, vs. the portrayal of foreign born players, 70% of whom are white. When comparing, you have to point out the main differences in the two groups in order to get an understanding. The main difference is race. To further that point, I've pointed out other sports, because while not the same thing, it is a similar/like comparison. Denying these factors is willful ignorance.

The main difference between those two groups isn't race.

The main difference is culture, which is way too often confused with race. Interestingly enough this confusion seems to be more prevalent in the US, where there are political motives to encourage that confusion (won't deep dive that one here though).

The perceived 'bad behavior' we seem to be referencing isn't a function of nationality, or even skin color, its a function of attitude. Easily evidenced by extreme examples like Grant Hill or David Robinson.

The culture players grow up in shape how they treat others, how they expect to be treated, and how they respond to adversity. These factors provide behavioral direction that a player can either choose to follow.



You as the poster has posited, are expressing willful ignorance. You cite Grant Hill and David Robinson as examples of how this is about 'attitude' not race. But those two guys are used as examples by whites because they were quiet and kept their heads down. Tim Duncan is another example of a cherry picked 'good guy'.
But Lebron James and Carmelo Anthony conversely has been vilified when in reality they are phenomenal role models. More so than Duncan I would say, because they are vocal about what they believe in,are hard workers, great fathers, and go out of their way to help their communities, and represent the league in exemplary fashion.
It's not about culture, if 'black culture' is considered the lesser form of it.
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Re: Are Non-American Players More Well-Behaved? 

Post#70 » by BlazersBroncos » Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:37 pm

I don't see how this is about race.

If, say, 10% of American born NBA players have off court issues v 2% of European born players, that's a statistic that points to European born players being better behaved.

You can adjust the question to make it about race, and even then, a question about race and crime is not necessarily a racist question.

Anyways, I travel a lot and agree that the stigma with young obnoxious Americans is inherent to all nations, especially English speaking and European nations. I mean, I saw an American dude literally going around the streets of Bangkok at like 4am ripping rearview mirrors off motor bikes. Saw a nude Australian running around a club with One Love tattooed on his butt cheeks. One on the left. Love on the right. People are nuts, especially with alcohol invoiced and especially when they are young travelers, youth that travel tend to be really interesting and generally turn out to be excellent human beings but are also prone to being really nuts at times.

But it really is sad how little this country travels. Every European that I met traveling was on a 3-4 week vacation, paid. Trying to see the world. Getting treated quite well by their jobs. Its just not like that in America, for the most part. New age tech type jobs are getting with the system, but its gonna be a long road to vacation equality with our European neighbors.
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Re: Are Non-American Players More Well-Behaved? 

Post#71 » by Zappa012 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:38 pm

Blackfyre wrote:
PockyCandy wrote:
Pass_the_rock wrote:
Image


That's a great flop by Juan Carlos Navarro.
How's that a flop :lol: ? He got viciously hit in the nuts.


That's not how you act when get hit in the nuts.
Batum missed (by very little), Navarro flopped.

That is not a great sample to show Batum's bad behavior since in europe everyone who hit someone between Navarro and mostly Rudy Fernandez earn god's savior points.
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Re: Are Non-American Players More Well-Behaved? 

Post#72 » by Synciere » Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:38 pm

capwolf wrote:
tidho wrote:
Synciere wrote:I don't care about those sports in a vacuum either. That's not the point. This thread is about the portrayal of American born players in the NBA, 70% of whom are African American, vs. the portrayal of foreign born players, 70% of whom are white. When comparing, you have to point out the main differences in the two groups in order to get an understanding. The main difference is race. To further that point, I've pointed out other sports, because while not the same thing, it is a similar/like comparison. Denying these factors is willful ignorance.

The main difference between those two groups isn't race.

The main difference is culture, which is way too often confused with race. Interestingly enough this confusion seems to be more prevalent in the US, where there are political motives to encourage that confusion (won't deep dive that one here though).

The perceived 'bad behavior' we seem to be referencing isn't a function of nationality, or even skin color, its a function of attitude. Easily evidenced by extreme examples like Grant Hill or David Robinson.

The culture players grow up in shape how they treat others, how they expect to be treated, and how they respond to adversity. These factors provide behavioral direction that a player can either choose to follow.



You as the poster has posited, are expressing willful ignorance. You cite Grant Hill and David Robinson as examples of how this is about 'attitude' not race. But those two guys are used as examples by whites because they were quiet and kept their heads down. Tim Duncan is another example of a cherry picked 'good guy'.
But Lebron James and Carmelo Anthony conversely has been vilified when in reality they are phenomenal role models. More so than Duncan I would say, because they are vocal about what they believe in,are hard workers, great fathers, and go out of their way to help their communities, and represent the league in exemplary fashion.
It's not about culture, if 'black culture' is considered the lesser form of it.


I didn't bring them into the conversation so I haven't posited them as anything. What you ignored about my statement is that one or multiple exceptions to a rule (or in the case, perception) doesn't change it's causation. Matter of fact, nothing in your post contradicts or even addresses any point that I made.

Lets take this back to the beginning. Why do you think the OP thought to ask this question in the first place? I understand that you are not in his head or anything like that. With that said, why do you think he thought to start this thread?
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Re: Are Non-American Players More Well-Behaved? 

Post#73 » by NZB2323 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:21 pm

Synciere wrote:
NZB2323 wrote:
Synciere wrote:
Not what I said. I said it says something that those conversations do not happen on those boards, in spite of the fact that similar or worse behavior is displayed.


Okay...why do I care what people who are baseball or hockey fans discuss? I can't name 10 players in the MLB or the NHL. This discussion is about NBA players(and Americans in general) and the lack of conversations(apparently) from MLB or NHL fans doesn't make this thread "all about race."

Also, you're the one who brought up the word "thug," when other people are discussing how nationalistic American tourists are, how American players have more technical fouls, and how foreign players(most who are black) seem like better role models.


I don't care about those sports in a vacuum either. That's not the point. This thread is about the portrayal of American born players in the NBA, 70% of whom are African American, vs. the portrayal of foreign born players, 70% of whom are white. When comparing, you have to point out the main differences in the two groups in order to get an understanding. The main difference is race. To further that point, I've pointed out other sports, because while not the same thing, it is a similar/like comparison. Denying these factors is willful ignorance.


This just isn't true.

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Re: Are Non-American Players More Well-Behaved? 

Post#74 » by Eyeamok » Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:57 pm

4 pages in and no mention of John Stockton. SMH
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Re: Are Non-American Players More Well-Behaved? 

Post#75 » by BlazersBroncos » Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:23 pm

Something that isn't ever brought up is the fact that crime rates, regardless of country of origin, are way, way lower amongst professional athletes than in the general population.

Criminal perception in athletics has everything to do with exposure and our lionization of these fallible athletes. I mean, you would assume that crime rates among a wealthy subsection of the population would be lower but there seems to be a stigma out there, mostly in the NFL, that these players are committing crimes at an inordinate rate when its actually the opposite.
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Re: Are Non-American Players More Well-Behaved? 

Post#76 » by LuDux1 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:30 pm

Hellcrooner wrote:The troublesome europeans stick to playing Soccer.
There are lots of examples of Soccer players that act like jerks on and off the field


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Re: Are Non-American Players More Well-Behaved? 

Post#77 » by LuDux1 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:27 pm

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Re: Are Non-American Players More Well-Behaved? 

Post#78 » by Pennebaker » Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:54 am

capwolf wrote:
Pennebaker wrote:Depends on what you think "Well-Behaved" means.

I'd agree that non-American players are more fearful of authority. Americans encourage independent spirits, so we probably have a different definition of what can be considered "well-behaved".


You've obviously never watched a Man City versus Man U game.


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Re: Are Non-American Players More Well-Behaved? 

Post#79 » by Pennebaker » Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:55 am

capwolf wrote:
Pennebaker wrote:Depends on what you think "Well-Behaved" means.

I'd agree that non-American players are more fearful of authority. Americans encourage independent spirits, so we probably have a different definition of what can be considered "well-behaved".


You've obviously never watched a Man City versus Man U game.


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Re: Are Non-American Players More Well-Behaved? 

Post#80 » by vergogna » Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:36 am

troubled european guys usually end playing other sports, I guess it's just this

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