2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)

[E-Balla]

So all these players are playing worse than they ever had while they were on losing teams, Harden isn't that impactful, and they're probably going to hit 55 wins. Wild.
Guess Beverley and Clint are the ones carrying that team huh

I also enjoy the gymnastics of using 'before he came to' then 'with __ off the floor' with ppg, then pp36, and including TS% only when it benefits your argument

Nice strawman and goal shifting. Also I used ppg for Dipo because he still plays 33 mpg (33.3 last year and 33.0 this year). I excluded his and Taj's TS% because its almost exactly the same as before (54 to 53 with Taj and 53 to 54 with Dipo). With EG I went with his numbers without Harden on the floor because I feel Dantoni made him better but even without that his production is the same as last year. Nice try though. How about someone gets me examples? Don't say Westbrook makes others worse with no examples and don't say Harden makes others better with no examples. Its a lazy argument used to brush off a player having superior teammates.

I never said WB makes anyone worse, just disagreeing with your premise of Harden not helping anyone. Ryno is having his best TS since he was 23. Nene was not this good with the Wizards, that's BS, higher PER, OPM, and BPM, way higher TS, and higher offensive and overall win shares and WS/48, this is easily his best season since the Nuggets days. It's also probably safe to say Ariza's 2014 season was an outlier, as it was his highest 3p% by over 3%, over 4% from his other Wizard season.
EG also has a higher TS of 57 with Harden on, which would be his best since his Clippers days.
Lou has struggled however, I'll give you that one. Most of your points besides Ariza are nothing but smaller usage

If you're not arguing those things why even comment in my post. My main point was that is dumb to say Westbrook makes his teammates worse and in the same breath say Harden makes his better. I don't think either really makes their teammates better I reserve saying that for only the best of the best. The Steve Nashes of the world.

Ryno's volume is so far down is that really a relevant point? And it's not like his TS% is high enough to stop his PER from plummitting or to raise his OBPM. You're right about Nene but I'd totally disagree with this being better than all his Wiz seasons aside from last year.

Ariza wasn't having an outlier season. He just finally learned to shoot threes and he had the 3rd best passer in the late feeding him. His PER in both Wizards seasons was better than it's been next to Harden. EG does have a higher TS with Harden on the floor but he loses so many shots and so much volume. Its like what Lebron does to Kyrie. Meanwhile Dipo performs way better with Westbrook.

[gmoney411]

The Rockets had the 8th ranked defense that year. OKC is 16th. Harden at least had a defense, Westbrook is all alone.

He's not all alone. His game just doesn't fit as easily with others as Harden's does. Westbrook is more of a Kobe style player. An all time great but he can't just play with anybody. Harden is better at making the guys around him better. Westbrook is good at it too because playing with somebody as great as him makes the game easier for others. But Harden is a step ahead of him in that area based on the way he plays the game.

That's just not true. If you look at the production of Westbrook's support when he's not there its a major difference. For example Kanter went from 18/10 on 54 TS% to 22/13 on 61 TS% when traded to OKC midseason. Taj Gibson went from 15.3 pp36 to a way lower 15.0 after being traded to play with that ballhog. Oladipo (a G) went from a staggering 16.1 ppg last year to a way lower 16.0! Jerami Grant went from 13 per 36 on 50 TS% to 10 on 55 this year. There's a long list of guys that have played better with Westbrook.

Now let's see that list for Harden:
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...
...
...


Oh wait there's no one here. Ryan Anderson went from 20 pp36 to a next to career low 16. Lou Will went from 28 pp36 on 61 TS% to 21 pp36 on 56 TS% when traded to Houston. Eric Gordon averages 26 pp36 on 56 TS% when Harden isn't on the floor. Nene and Ariza both played better in Washington with John Wall. Dwight Howard is playing better than he did with Harden with Schroeder at point. If Harden is better at making guys around him step up their play where's the proof?

Also go look at how guys played next to Kobe if you think he hurt his teammates. You'd be surprised. Pau was ight in Memphis but he was All NBA next to Kobe.

That's some fantastic strawman you put together. I never said Kobe or Westbrook didn't make their teammates better. In fact I actually said the complete opposite about Westbrook. But I'm guessing you only hear what you want to hear.

[E-Balla]

He's not all alone. His game just doesn't fit as easily with others as Harden's does. Westbrook is more of a Kobe style player. An all time great but he can't just play with anybody. Harden is better at making the guys around him better. Westbrook is good at it too because playing with somebody as great as him makes the game easier for others. But Harden is a step ahead of him in that area based on the way he plays the game.

That's just not true. If you look at the production of Westbrook's support when he's not there its a major difference. For example Kanter went from 18/10 on 54 TS% to 22/13 on 61 TS% when traded to OKC midseason. Taj Gibson went from 15.3 pp36 to a way lower 15.0 after being traded to play with that ballhog. Oladipo (a G) went from a staggering 16.1 ppg last year to a way lower 16.0! Jerami Grant went from 13 per 36 on 50 TS% to 10 on 55 this year. There's a long list of guys that have played better with Westbrook.

Now let's see that list for Harden:
...
...
...
...


Oh wait there's no one here. Ryan Anderson went from 20 pp36 to a next to career low 16. Lou Will went from 28 pp36 on 61 TS% to 21 pp36 on 56 TS% when traded to Houston. Eric Gordon averages 26 pp36 on 56 TS% when Harden isn't on the floor. Nene and Ariza both played better in Washington with John Wall. Dwight Howard is playing better than he did with Harden with Schroeder at point. If Harden is better at making guys around him step up their play where's the proof?

Also go look at how guys played next to Kobe if you think he hurt his teammates. You'd be surprised. Pau was ight in Memphis but he was All NBA next to Kobe.

That's some fantastic strawman you put together. I never said Kobe or Westbrook didn't make their teammates better. In fact I actually said the complete opposite about Westbrook. But I'm guessing you only hear what you want to hear.

My post was a long comparison between Harden and Westbrook asking for some proof to your claims that its easier to play with Harden. Nice to see you have no proof. I'm out this thread I just realized its a Harden circlejerk and there's no point in posting here with a bunch of people that believe what they want to no matter how true or false it is.

[Patches Perry]

The inconsistency in the arguments of this thread is what bothers Rockets fans. Historically the award has been given to players from a Top seed with significant consideration to team records, and now people are discrediting Harden because he plays for MDA or that he has a better team (weren't the Rockets supposed to be a lottery team this year?) or because he's averaging 2 RPG fewer than Westbrook? Let's not act like the Rockets fans are the only villains here. The irrational hate against Harden and the Rockets is clearly strong.

There is no inconsistency because there is no set criteria. The only consistent criteria would either reward Curry another MVP (best player on best team) or Westbrook (best individual season statistically). Anything in between is contrived and will be whimsical.

The irony here is that triple doubles are arbitrary, but so is this magical combination of individual success and team success that rewards Harden the MVP. Why Harden over Westbrook because of team success but not Curry/Leonard over Harden? Spurs are 8 games better than the Rockets and Rockets are 8 games better than OKC, yet Spurs and Rockets are "top teams" and Thunder don't clear the threshold. Totally arbitrary.

People will vote, maybe Harden will win and if he does that's fine. If he doesn't win, it's no injustice or inconsistency, because the criteria you're appealing to to favor Harden is in itself inconsistent.

Rockets fans have decided that a sub 50 win 6th seed cannot have an MVP. While you can say that is contrived or arbitrary, there is a lot of historical voting precedence behind that. It's not inconsistent to frame an argument for Harden MVP. He's the only guy that checks multiple boxes (stats, winning, and the redemption story narrative).

Harden certainly has a case, and I certainly wouldn't have issue if he won, but it's just not going to be any kind of injustice if Westbrook wins, because there is also a strong case that Westbrook deserves it more.

[gmoney411]

That's just not true. If you look at the production of Westbrook's support when he's not there its a major difference. For example Kanter went from 18/10 on 54 TS% to 22/13 on 61 TS% when traded to OKC midseason. Taj Gibson went from 15.3 pp36 to a way lower 15.0 after being traded to play with that ballhog. Oladipo (a G) went from a staggering 16.1 ppg last year to a way lower 16.0! Jerami Grant went from 13 per 36 on 50 TS% to 10 on 55 this year. There's a long list of guys that have played better with Westbrook.

Now let's see that list for Harden:
...
...
...
...


Oh wait there's no one here. Ryan Anderson went from 20 pp36 to a next to career low 16. Lou Will went from 28 pp36 on 61 TS% to 21 pp36 on 56 TS% when traded to Houston. Eric Gordon averages 26 pp36 on 56 TS% when Harden isn't on the floor. Nene and Ariza both played better in Washington with John Wall. Dwight Howard is playing better than he did with Harden with Schroeder at point. If Harden is better at making guys around him step up their play where's the proof?

Also go look at how guys played next to Kobe if you think he hurt his teammates. You'd be surprised. Pau was ight in Memphis but he was All NBA next to Kobe.

That's some fantastic strawman you put together. I never said Kobe or Westbrook didn't make their teammates better. In fact I actually said the complete opposite about Westbrook. But I'm guessing you only hear what you want to hear.

My post was a long comparison between Harden and Westbrook asking for some proof to your claims that its easier to play with Harden. Nice to see you have no proof. I'm out this thread I just realized its a Harden circlejerk and there's no point in posting here with a bunch of people that believe what they want to no matter how true or false it is.

There is little point in addressing your claims. You jump from ppg for Anderson to TS% for Lou and then TS% for Gordon while Harden is on the bench. You then compare the numbers of a younger Nene. And then you user the numbers of Ariza when he was shooting less 3s a game. You are using different markers to prove your points. There is no consistency in the way you are trying to disprove Harden's impact.

[K_chile22]

Ryno's volume is so far down is that really a relevant point? And it's not like his TS% is high enough to stop his PER from plummitting or to raise his OBPM.

His PER is down because his usage is down. PER rewards chucking like he did as a sixth man in New Orleans. Same with BPM which is derived from box score stats, which fall with lower usage.
And volume when discussing efficiency should be based on actual totals, not per 36 because he isn't actually shooting that many shots so it isn't a relevant sample, where Ryno has taken his 3rd most FGA's in a season this season. He has his 3rd highets TS% over his 3rd largest sample size. Seems good to me!

And Dipo hasn't been as good, for sure, but he hasn't been garbage without Russ like you say he has been.
His TS% takes a pretty significant fall off, from 54.8 to 51.1, but his pp36 jumps to 21 from 16.3 and his assists per 36 nearly doubles, from 2.3 to 4.2 so it's really not a colossal fall off

[RightToCensor]

Read on Twitter

[Scizzup]

That's just not true. If you look at the production of Westbrook's support when he's not there its a major difference. For example Kanter went from 18/10 on 54 TS% to 22/13 on 61 TS% when traded to OKC midseason. Taj Gibson went from 15.3 pp36 to a way lower 15.0 after being traded to play with that ballhog. Oladipo (a G) went from a staggering 16.1 ppg last year to a way lower 16.0! Jerami Grant went from 13 per 36 on 50 TS% to 10 on 55 this year. There's a long list of guys that have played better with Westbrook.

Now let's see that list for Harden:
...
...
...
...


Oh wait there's no one here. Ryan Anderson went from 20 pp36 to a next to career low 16. Lou Will went from 28 pp36 on 61 TS% to 21 pp36 on 56 TS% when traded to Houston. Eric Gordon averages 26 pp36 on 56 TS% when Harden isn't on the floor. Nene and Ariza both played better in Washington with John Wall. Dwight Howard is playing better than he did with Harden with Schroeder at point. If Harden is better at making guys around him step up their play where's the proof?

Also go look at how guys played next to Kobe if you think he hurt his teammates. You'd be surprised. Pau was ight in Memphis but he was All NBA next to Kobe.

This is a nice way to look at it but you can also look at this way Dipo/Adams are worse than they were last year on most adv stats. Bpm/Rpm/rapm. asist%/stl%/reb% for Dipo also down. You don't have to do this to make Westbrook look good. TAJ also been worse in okc than he was in Bulls this season. Dipo went from 2BPM to (-1) and Adams went from 2BPM to (0.3). Adams was great last season and there was a legit debate with him and Rudy Gobert.

NBA Preason rank
35: Marc Gasol
36: Steven Adams
37: Rudy Gobert

1. Adams' PG last year was? Oh yeah RUSSELL WESTBROOK!

2. Tell me what the RAPM difference is because unless you calculated it yourself no one has it.

3. Go look up Dipo's numbers without Westbrook on the floor. Someone PM'de about it. He's garbage when he's on the floor alone running things.

4. Taj's boxscore is basically the same outside of blocks and DRB. OKC is a +6.1 team with him on the floor though. OKC's been playing way better since getting him.

i don't know what the first one means unless you saying Russ monopolizing the ball is indeed affecting Dipo/Adams advanced #'s. Dipo and Adams RPM/BPM all available publicly got worse. Rapm available on abpr metrics for some members support the same thing. I mean you can't just use a certain stat that supports your narrative and avoid the rest of them. Also, yes Taj has been great in the starting line up but he has dropped on RPM/BPM since then. I also know that dipo #'s.

Now do you know that Adams/Dipo the 2/3 best player on the team played together with the bench for less than <70mins? idk but that might have something to do with on/off. or how about Adams/Robes mins together with bench?

[Doctor MJ]

The problem for James Harden is he's the Hillary Clinton of the MVP race. On paper he should win but not enough people actually like the guy.

What's funny about that is there's truth in it but he WON the player's MVP award over Curry in 14-15.

On Lowes podcast they were talking about there possibly being a split between current players and the retired players in the media. The latter think that Westbrook is by far the most impressive, while many current players favor Harden.

I would submit that one perspective comes from watching and evaluating with an eye toward advocating for basketball's classic virtues while the other comes from actually trying to stop what each player is doing.

JJ Redick said a couple years ago that he had Westbrook #1 on his MVP list until he played against OKC with Westbrook in this mode, at which point he just felt like Westbrook was doing too much. I don't remember his specific words but my impression was that he felt like it made OKC predictable and not too hard to stop.

And while some may see that as laughable it has to be noted that the sophisticated take on Westbrook's candidacy stems primarily on how bad they look without him, not how dangerous they are with him.

Now let me note: Despite me being something of a Westbrook skeptic, I'm starting to come around. He might get my vote here. I know that what I wrote there is effectively anti-Westbrook but that's because I needed to elaborate on something counter to the understandable assumption that stuff like this only worked for Westbrook.


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OKC is 6-4 vs LAC in the last 3 seasons so it can't be that easy to stop. Its easy to say someone's not improve in theory. Harder to say it when he's busting your butt.

Seriously?

Look, it wasn't about Reddick. Stop trying to make counter arguments and just look to have a conversation.

But since I know it will be worthwhile for people to hear, consider:

1) that was a statement made in 2015, so what are you doing bringing up cumulative records across multiple seasons with drastically changing landscapes? You realize that there was a guy named Durant involved, right?

2) understand that something I factor in heavily hear is offensive excellence, and the fact remains that the Westbrook-only Thunder aren't an elite offense.

I understand about supporting cast. I'm not bringing it up to damn Westbrook. I'm saying that the impression that a player is unstoppable while playing on an offense that is very much stoppable is a contradiction




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[K_chile22]

I don't think either really makes their teammates better I reserve saying that for only the best of the best. The Steve Nashes of the world.

And John Wall, apparently

Ariza wasn't having an outlier season. He just finally learned to shoot threes and he had the 3rd best passer in the late feeding him. His PER in both Wizards seasons was better than it's been next to Harden.

Nene and Ariza both played better in Washington with John Wall

[E-Balla]

I don't think either really makes their teammates better I reserve saying that for only the best of the best. The Steve Nashes of the world.

And John Wall, apparently

Ariza wasn't having an outlier season. He just finally learned to shoot threes and he had the 3rd best passer in the late feeding him. His PER in both Wizards seasons was better than it's been next to Harden.

Nene and Ariza both played better in Washington with John Wall

Umm... Yeah? John Wall is a spectacular passer. If he couldn't score he'd be a top 10 PG in the league right now. Want to see what a real PG does to "make people better" go look at what an out of shape John Wall did for the Wizards in 2013. Brad Beal shot 36% and 32% from 3 before Wall came back. After Wall got back he shot 47% from the field and 47% from 3 while dealing with injuries. Okafor went from being 45% from the field with a sub 95 ORTG to being 49% with a 101 ORTG. Ariza went from bring 34% from the field and 24% from 3 to being 45% and 39% from deep. They went 24-25 when Wall played and 5-28 without him.

You can even simply look at Gortat's production with Nash (16.5 pp36, 58.5 TS%, 116 ORTG), with Dragic (13 pp36, 54.5 TS%, 104 ORTG), and with Wall (14.4 pp36, 58.5 TS%, 114 ORTG) to see exactly how Wall compares to an average passing PG vs a top 5 passer ever.

[HotRocks34]

It's over.

New single-season triple-double record by Westbrook.

[michaelm]

This is a nice way to look at it but you can also look at this way Dipo/Adams are worse than they were last year on most adv stats. Bpm/Rpm/rapm. asist%/stl%/reb% for Dipo also down. You don't have to do this to make Westbrook look good. TAJ also been worse in okc than he was in Bulls this season. Dipo went from 2BPM to (-1) and Adams went from 2BPM to (0.3). Adams was great last season and there was a legit debate with him and Rudy Gobert.

NBA Preason rank
35: Marc Gasol
36: Steven Adams
37: Rudy Gobert

1. Adams' PG last year was? Oh yeah RUSSELL WESTBROOK!

2. Tell me what the RAPM difference is because unless you calculated it yourself no one has it.

3. Go look up Dipo's numbers without Westbrook on the floor. Someone PM'de about it. He's garbage when he's on the floor alone running things.

4. Taj's boxscore is basically the same outside of blocks and DRB. OKC is a +6.1 team with him on the floor though. OKC's been playing way better since getting him.

i don't know what the first one means unless you saying Russ monopolizing the ball is indeed affecting Dipo/Adams advanced #'s. Dipo and Adams RPM/BPM all available publicly got worse. Rapm available on abpr metrics for some members support the same thing. I mean you can't just use a certain stat that supports your narrative and avoid the rest of them. Also, yes Taj has been great in the starting line up but he has dropped on RPM/BPM since then. I also know that dipo #'s.

Now do you know that Adams/Dipo the 2/3 best player on the team played together with the bench for less than <70mins? idk but that might have something to do with on/off. or how about Adams/Robes mins together with bench?

Happy for either player to get MVP, but I am not sure about this argument. Would Adams and Odalipo have been rated as considerably worse players than the equivalent next best players at Houston pre-season? Sure they may have just coincidentally got worse, but it is also possible that OKC's tactics/strategy this year don't optimally use them. Adams in particular looked like one of the best centers in the NNBA in the play-offs last year, although not a point scoring titan of course which is the problem with KD leaving, OKC have an unbalanced team with no real scorers other than Westbrook. That isn't Westbrook's fault, my point is that it may have affected Adams and Odalipo rather than them just turning into scrubs.

[HotRocks34]

Condolences to Harden, who has had an incredible season.

But if you saw how the crowd was reacting tonight in Denver, there doesn't seem any way Westbrook won't win the award now.

It's Westbrook's world, and his season.

[RightToCensor]

Congrats to Brodie. I can't imagine the energy he exerted all season racking up these stats.

[Doctor MJ]

It's over.

New single-season triple-double record by Westbrook.

...In a loss to a lottery team?




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[Patches Perry]

Condolences to Harden, who has had an incredible season.

But if you saw how the crowd was reacting tonight in Denver, there doesn't seem any way Westbrook won't win the award now.

It's Westbrook's world, and his season.

Everybody in the crowd had their phones recording...in Denver. This is a transcendent accomplishment.

[gmoney411]

I don't think either really makes their teammates better I reserve saying that for only the best of the best. The Steve Nashes of the world.

And John Wall, apparently

Ariza wasn't having an outlier season. He just finally learned to shoot threes and he had the 3rd best passer in the late feeding him. His PER in both Wizards seasons was better than it's been next to Harden.

Nene and Ariza both played better in Washington with John Wall

Umm... Yeah? John Wall is a spectacular passer. If he couldn't score he'd be a top 10 PG in the league right now. Want to see what a real PG does to "make people better" go look at what an out of shape John Wall did for the Wizards in 2013. Brad Beal shot 36% and 32% from 3 before Wall came back. After Wall got back he shot 47% from the field and 47% from 3 while dealing with injuries. Okafor went from being 45% from the field with a sub 95 ORTG to being 49% with a 101 ORTG. Ariza went from bring 34% from the field and 24% from 3 to being 45% and 39% from deep. They went 24-25 when Wall played and 5-28 without him.

You can even simply look at Gortat's production with Nash (16.5 pp36, 58.5 TS%, 116 ORTG), with Dragic (13 pp36, 54.5 TS%, 104 ORTG), and with Wall (14.4 pp36, 58.5 TS%, 114 ORTG) to see exactly how Wall compares to an average passing PG vs a top 5 passer ever.

You could also look at Nene having the most efficient season he's had since he left Denver.

[RightToCensor]

Condolences to Harden, who has had an incredible season.

But if you saw how the crowd was reacting tonight in Denver, there doesn't seem any way Westbrook won't win the award now.

It's Westbrook's world, and his season.

Harden will never be appreciated by other fanbases. They'll try to respect him, but after he draws his first foul they all will go back to hating him.

[HotRocks34]

It's over.

New single-season triple-double record by Westbrook.

...In a loss to a lottery team.

Won't make any difference, as is hinted at by the ESPN poll results.

It's over.

Condolences to Harden, but he was going against a force of nature this year.