WCQF | (3) Houston Rockets vs Oklahoma City Thunder (6) | HOU 2-1

[K_chile22]

I started watching in the 3rd when Westbrook was rolling, and was wondering why Ariza and Harden were guarding him instead of Beverley. I'd assume Pat was in foul trouble because otherwise there's no reason for any other Rocket to guard Westbrook when Bev is on the floor.

Usually I'd agree, but Ariza has been playing good D again so far, and when Russ goes into jumper mode it's better to put more length on him. He was too worn out to blow by anyone

[RatherUnique]

OKC can still win the next 2 at home and make it a series though. I expect Russ to play smarter next game and they should win that one. idk about game 4 though

The Thunder won the game by double digits in the 41 mins that Westbrook was on the court.

They were beaten by 15 while he was on the bench from quarters 2-4, which shouldn't be overlooked because..... the points scored in those 7 mins count towards the final score.

He can "play smarter" next game & they will still lose if Donovan plays 12 players & their 2nd units get dominated like last night.

We're essentially criticizing Westbrook's lineups for not outscoring a 55 win team by 16+ points

Its absurd. If your team is getting outscored by 15 when your star sits, you are almost guaranteed to lose.

Haha THIS is absurd.

The Thunder won game 1 by 3 when McBuckets was on the court, does that make him better than Westbrook? So much garbage. Guess who had the worst +/- in game 1? Yeah WB.

Some people are saying in game 2 Westbrook was plus +11 and the back up PG was -15, that's the reason they lost. Well, look back at game 1 - Westbrook -25, back up PG only -6

People are trying really hard to push that his help is crap.

Doug McDermott entered game 1 with 3 mins left and the Thunder were down by 32. His contributions were in garbage time. The stats that I provided were not in garbage time.

Try again.

There are 48 mins at the PG spot. They were +11 with their star at that spot for 41 mins. They were -15 for the other 7 mins where he was on the bench & a d-league guy was in his place.

And the entire team was bad in game 1. Every single player. Nobody is disputing that.

[RatherUnique]

OKC can still win the next 2 at home and make it a series though. I expect Russ to play smarter next game and they should win that one. idk about game 4 though

The Thunder won the game by double digits in the 41 mins that Westbrook was on the court.

They were beaten by 15 while he was on the bench from quarters 2-4, which shouldn't be overlooked because..... the points scored in those 7 mins count towards the final score.

He can "play smarter" next game & they will still lose if Donovan plays 12 players & their 2nd units get dominated like last night.

We're essentially criticizing Westbrook's lineups for not outscoring a 55 win team by 16+ points

Its absurd. If your team is getting outscored by 15 when your star sits, you are almost guaranteed to lose.

Totally negating the issue of everybody else on the team standing and watching Westbrook throw up 45 shots.

This is the real problem with Westbrook dominating the ball so much, other guys have no rhythm, they aren't feeling the offense. That's what puts a ceiling on a team playing like this. They will be as good as Westbrook and no more.

That's also an issue. 100%.

The point is, last night, be that as it may, they outpaced Houston by 11 points with lineups that featured Russ.

When he was on the bench, the game completely flipped in those limited mins, in part because the coach played seven bench players last night, most notably Semaj Christon who is one of the worst rotation players in basketball.

[Scizzup]

The Thunder won the game by double digits in the 41 mins that Westbrook was on the court.

They were beaten by 15 while he was on the bench from quarters 2-4, which shouldn't be overlooked because..... the points scored in those 7 mins count towards the final score.

He can "play smarter" next game & they will still lose if Donovan plays 12 players & their 2nd units get dominated like last night.

We're essentially criticizing Westbrook's lineups for not outscoring a 55 win team by 16+ points

Its absurd. If your team is getting outscored by 15 when your star sits, you are almost guaranteed to lose.

Haha THIS is absurd.

The Thunder won game 1 by 3 when McBuckets was on the court, does that make him better than Westbrook? So much garbage. Guess who had the worst +/- in game 1? Yeah WB.

Some people are saying in game 2 Westbrook was plus +11 and the back up PG was -15, that's the reason they lost. Well, look back at game 1 - Westbrook -25, back up PG only -6

People are trying really hard to push that his help is crap.

Doug McDermott entered game 1 with 3 mins left and the Thunder were down by 32. His contributions were in garbage time. The stats that I provided were not in garbage time.

Try again.

There are 48 mins at the PG spot. They were +11 with their star at that spot for 41 mins. They were -15 for the other 7 mins where he was on the bench & a d-league guy was in his place.

And the entire team was bad in game 1. Every single player. Nobody is disputing that.

Yo context matters when it comes to +- , even though u right that okc plays bad when he sat last night. The offense is 23 point worse when Adams sits compared to 11 when Russ sitting btw. The team got outscored by 10 when Russ was in and Adams wasn't off last night. Again context.

[BallerTalk]

One of the things I find most hilarious about this raging Harden vs Westbrook debate is that Thunder fans were having the VERY SAME debate among themselves 5 years ago.
Many agreed that Harden was the better playmaker but felt that was what made him a better candidate to run the second unit than Westbrook.

I can't help but wonder how many of those who were around then and had Harden as the better playmaker are arguing differently now that he is on an opposing team.

[kevC]

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

How can they miss something so obvious?

[BallerTalk]

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

How can they miss something so obvious?

Fortunately it didn't make a difference in the end but I was completely stunned that all the refs missed such an easy and obvious call.
It was kinda funny watching the one ref trying to explain to D'Antoni while the look on his own face said he knew he missed it.

[HotTubMike]

watching PTI right now... man I wonder how RW teammates feel when all the media does is rip on them. Must be a joy to be a part of that team right now.

[Yoshun]

One of the things I find most hilarious about this raging Harden vs Westbrook debate is that Thunder fans were having the VERY SAME debate among themselves 5 years ago.
Many agreed that Harden was the better playmaker but felt that was what made him a better candidate to run the second unit than Westbrook.

I can't help but wonder how many of those who were around then and had Harden as the better playmaker are arguing differently now that he is on an opposing team.

Well sure, but 5 years have passed and neither player is the same. Both Westbrook and Harden are much better playmakers, and players overall, than they were 5 years. It's certainly a fair debate and there's nothing wrong with feeling differently about it now, after 5 years.

Here's the thing, this game was bad, there is no way to defend it. Great first three quarters, horrible 4th. Honestly, defending it is ridiculous. Regardless of his teammates or any other factors involved, he played bad, and I think he knows it.

That said, this one quarter shouldn't be indicative of his entire season. The man played great all year and he did so with very little help on the offensive end. I really don't see how anyone can deny that. He's also been great all year in the clutch. He's hit countless winners and played extremely well in the 4th. Again, the Westbrook/Harden debate has it's merits.

This was a bad game, specifically a terrible 4th quarter, and OKC lost because of it. They live and die by Westbrook, no surprise there. Let's call this what it was and move on.

[gmoney411]

The Thunder won the game by double digits in the 41 mins that Westbrook was on the court.

They were beaten by 15 while he was on the bench from quarters 2-4, which shouldn't be overlooked because..... the points scored in those 7 mins count towards the final score.

He can "play smarter" next game & they will still lose if Donovan plays 12 players & their 2nd units get dominated like last night.

We're essentially criticizing Westbrook's lineups for not outscoring a 55 win team by 16+ points

Its absurd. If your team is getting outscored by 15 when your star sits, you are almost guaranteed to lose.

Totally negating the issue of everybody else on the team standing and watching Westbrook throw up 45 shots.

This is the real problem with Westbrook dominating the ball so much, other guys have no rhythm, they aren't feeling the offense. That's what puts a ceiling on a team playing like this. They will be as good as Westbrook and no more.

That's also an issue. 100%.

The point is, last night, be that as it may, they outpaced Houston by 11 points with lineups that featured Russ.

When he was on the bench, the game completely flipped in those limited mins, in part because the coach played seven bench players last night, most notably Semaj Christon who is one of the worst rotation players in basketball.

That's a nice stat but the Thunder were up six points ten seconds into the 4th quarter with Russ on the court. People act like he came back in with his team trailing. 41 minutes is a lot of minutes but it's not an extraordinary amount. He shot his team out of the game with poor decision making.

Also, with 90 seconds left the Thunder were down 10 and the game was basically over. The 6 point swing to make Russ +11 instead of +5 is pointless.

[BallerTalk]

One of the things I find most hilarious about this raging Harden vs Westbrook debate is that Thunder fans were having the VERY SAME debate among themselves 5 years ago.
Many agreed that Harden was the better playmaker but felt that was what made him a better candidate to run the second unit than Westbrook.

I can't help but wonder how many of those who were around then and had Harden as the better playmaker are arguing differently now that he is on an opposing team.

Well sure, but 5 years have passed and neither player is the same. Both Westbrook and Harden are much better playmakers, and players overall, than they were 5 years. It's certainly a fair debate and there's nothing wrong with feeling differently about it now, after 5 years.

Here's the thing, this game was bad, there is no way to defend it. Great first three quarters, horrible 4th. Honestly, defending it is ridiculous. Regardless of his teammates or any other factors involved, he played bad, and I think he knows it.

That said, this one quarter shouldn't be indicative of his entire season. The man played great all year and he did so with very little help on the offensive end. I really don't see how anyone can deny that. He's also been great all year in the clutch. He's hit countless winners and played extremely well in the 4th. Again, the Westbrook/Harden debate has it's merits.

This was a bad game, specifically a terrible 4th quarter, and OKC lost because of it. They live and die by Westbrook, no surprise there. Let's call this what it was and move on.

You are right, one quarter should not be indicative of Westbrook's entire season.
Unfortunately it does conjure old ghosts. It was a horrible hodgepodge of many of the things Russell's critics have been most vocal about: Poor shot selection, weak defense, and selfish play.
It gets magnified by the fact that it happened in the playoffs and in spectacular fashion. Eighteen shots in a quarter is an eye catcher.

Then you add that all eyes are on this series as it was the most anticipated of the 1st round. It features the two leading MVP candidates so the comparisons were inevitable.
Thus far Harden has largely appeared the calm, pace controlling playmaker who gets his teammates involved and knocks down timely shots.
Meanwhile Westbrook followed an erratic Game 1 with a brilliant first 3 quarters of basketball.
Then came the complete breakdown in the 4th quarter.

For the record I've always thought Harden was the better playmaker of the two, even when they were on the same team.
I felt that was where Westbrook needed to make the most improvement. But it's hard to tell a guy (or his fans) he needs improvement when he is putting up the astronomical numbers he is and garnering the accolades that come with it.

Nevertheless I still find it funny that this debate rages on.

[RatherUnique]

Totally negating the issue of everybody else on the team standing and watching Westbrook throw up 45 shots.

This is the real problem with Westbrook dominating the ball so much, other guys have no rhythm, they aren't feeling the offense. That's what puts a ceiling on a team playing like this. They will be as good as Westbrook and no more.

That's also an issue. 100%.

The point is, last night, be that as it may, they outpaced Houston by 11 points with lineups that featured Russ.

When he was on the bench, the game completely flipped in those limited mins, in part because the coach played seven bench players last night, most notably Semaj Christon who is one of the worst rotation players in basketball.

That's a nice stat but the Thunder were up six points ten seconds into the 4th quarter with Russ on the court. People act like he came back in with his team trailing. 41 minutes is a lot of minutes but it's not an extraordinary amount. He shot his team out of the game with poor decision making.

Also, with 90 seconds left the Thunder were down 10 and the game was basically over. The 6 point swing to make Russ +11 instead of +5 is pointless.

What if he came back in & was still up 12, or even 9? Then if Houston makes a few threes, they're still in front instead of trailing.

Nobody is acting like he came back in with a deficit. We're acting like Houston's points, and OKCs lack thereof, while Semaj was in the game contributed to the final score. In a 5 point game, that really really hurts.

When you play 7 bench players, including a d-league guy at point guard, the margin for error for your best lineups is extremely thin. They build up a lead, and instead of it being maintained, it's erased.

[BallerTalk]

That's also an issue. 100%.

The point is, last night, be that as it may, they outpaced Houston by 11 points with lineups that featured Russ.

When he was on the bench, the game completely flipped in those limited mins, in part because the coach played seven bench players last night, most notably Semaj Christon who is one of the worst rotation players in basketball.

That's a nice stat but the Thunder were up six points ten seconds into the 4th quarter with Russ on the court. People act like he came back in with his team trailing. 41 minutes is a lot of minutes but it's not an extraordinary amount. He shot his team out of the game with poor decision making.

Also, with 90 seconds left the Thunder were down 10 and the game was basically over. The 6 point swing to make Russ +11 instead of +5 is pointless.

What if he came back in & was still up 12, or even 9? Then if Houston makes a few threes, they're still in front instead of trailing.

Nobody is acting like he came back in with a deficit. We're acting like Houston's points, and OKCs lack thereof, while Semaj was in the game contributed to the final score. In a 5 point game, that really really hurts.

When you play 7 bench players, including a d-league guy at point guard, the margin for error for your best lineups is extremely thin. They build up a lead, and instead of it being maintained, it's erased.

Benches usually aren't as good as the starters.
Shrinking leads are not an uncommon thing.

As has been said before, you could make that argument if Westbrook returned to a deficit, but he didn't.
In fact the Thunder lead was up to 8 points just 30 seconds into the quarter [94 - 86 @ 11:31] and they still ended up down by 10 by the end, all with Westbrook on the floor.
Blaming the bench is convenient but it just doesn't wash when the star was on the floor during the final 18 point swing of a game they lost by four. What the bench did prior to that becomes moot.

[RatherUnique]

That's a nice stat but the Thunder were up six points ten seconds into the 4th quarter with Russ on the court. People act like he came back in with his team trailing. 41 minutes is a lot of minutes but it's not an extraordinary amount. He shot his team out of the game with poor decision making.

Also, with 90 seconds left the Thunder were down 10 and the game was basically over. The 6 point swing to make Russ +11 instead of +5 is pointless.

What if he came back in & was still up 12, or even 9? Then if Houston makes a few threes, they're still in front instead of trailing.

Nobody is acting like he came back in with a deficit. We're acting like Houston's points, and OKCs lack thereof, while Semaj was in the game contributed to the final score. In a 5 point game, that really really hurts.

When you play 7 bench players, including a d-league guy at point guard, the margin for error for your best lineups is extremely thin. They build up a lead, and instead of it being maintained, it's erased.

Benches usually aren't as good as the starters.
Shrinking leads are not an uncommon thing.

As has been said before, you could make that argument if Westbrook returned to a deficit, but he didn't.
In fact the Thunder lead was up to 8 points just 30 seconds into the quarter [94 - 86 @ 11:31] and they still ended up down by 10 by the end, all with Westbrook on the floor.
Blaming the bench is convenient but it just doesn't wash when the star was on the floor during the final 18 point swing of a game they lost by four. What the bench did prior to that becomes moot.

Shrinking leads are not uncommon.

Double digit leads being reduced to one possession games is uncommon.

You won't get far in the playoffs with a bench like that unless you have multiple stars in your starting lineup like the '11 Heat or other top heavy teams.

And how is it moot when the points that the Rockets scored on their bench counted towards the final score? Instead of being up 8 points 30 seconds into the quarter, it could've been 20, or 15.

That is the point.

[bakesale]

I didn't get to watch the game but why is Adams only taking 3 shots? You give him a 100 mil contract and he only gets 3 shots? that's ridiculous, meanwhile RW gets 43 shots. Again I didn't see this game, but I'd wanna get Adams more involved if I was OKC.

you must have not watched the game? if you did you would have known Adams was triple teamed and Shaq was guarding him

makes sense now!

[BallerTalk]

And how is it moot when the points that the Rockets scored on their bench counted towards the final score? Instead of being up 8 points 30 seconds into the quarter, it could've been 20, or 15.

That is the point.

What if they hadn't let a 15 point lead dwindle to six at halftime while Westbrook was on the floor?
What if the bench had increased the lead to 15 instead of 3?
What if the Rockets best three point shooter didn't go 0-7?
Hypotheticals like that can go a million different ways.
And it's all irrelevant.

The fact is the Thunder had an eight point lead in the 4th quarter with Westbrook on the floor.
Trying to blame a loss on something that happened with the bench in the 3rd quarter at that point is disingenuous.

[RatherUnique]

And how is it moot when the points that the Rockets scored on their bench counted towards the final score? Instead of being up 8 points 30 seconds into the quarter, it could've been 20, or 15.

That is the point.

What if they hadn't let a 15 point lead dwindle to six at halftime while Westbrook was on the floor?
What if the bench had increased the lead to 15 instead of 3?
What if the Rockets best three point shooter didn't go 0-7?
Hypotheticals like that can go a million different ways.
And it's all irrelevant.

The fact is the Thunder had an eight point lead in the 4th quarter with Westbrook on the floor.
Trying to blame a loss on something that happened with the bench in the 3rd quarter at that point is disingenuous.

It's not "irrelevant" or "disingenuous" when every single point scored and given up contributes to the final score

[Young_Star11]

https://streamable.com/08s6v#

Westbrook has a career 39% 3PT shooter in McDermott who was 4/5 FG and 3/4 from 3PT on the night and still didn't pass the ball to him in the 4Q even though he was open multiple times. Enough with the pathetic excuses; this is just bad basketball IQ.

McDermott did everything but get the ball. Clearly Russ was wanting to get his own shot.

Russ has never been known for his basketball IQ and it hasn't improved a lot over the years.

[Young_Star11]

The Westbrook being selfish meme isn't being brought up from nowhere. I posted this on another thread, but when Westbrook was playing with Durant, his shots per game was as high as Durant's while being a significantly worse scorer. To me, if you shoot as much as one of the best pure scorers that the NBA has ever seen and do it at a significantly lower percentage, then that means you are selfish. I mean, if I were Westbrook, I would try to get Durant as many shots as possible (certainly more than myself) and concentrate on playing ferocious defense, getting my teammates involved, and playing essentially like a hyper version of CP3. That certainly wasn't the case.

I certainly think OKC/KD/Russ would look back and wonder how they never won a championship during their time together, even after trading Harden.

[Screwston]

This will be a sweep. Mvp will usually get you one, but that won't be the case here