2017 Isaiah Thomas is better than any version of Iverson.

OkcSinceSGA · Post #1 » by **OkcSinceSGA** » Wed May 3, 2017 1:22 pm

Anyone who disagrees can fight me with actual data and evidence. I'm addressing this because I see people constantly pissing on IT while Iverson is on some nostalgic pedestal and it annoys me. Both were mediocre defenders who got steals in the passing lanes but not much else (although Iverson was better defensively). Isaiah's efficiency on offense more than makes up for PG defense.

"But defense!" People need to realize PG defense was never a huge thing. Sure, big PG's like Gary Payton, Jason Kidd, Dennis Johnson who also guarded 2s and 3s. But most other hall of fame PG's didn't play a lick of defense. Stop being hypocritical.

sikma42 · Post #2 » by **sikma42** » Wed May 3, 2017 1:25 pm

Different eras, different rules

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

OkcSinceSGA · Post #3 » by **OkcSinceSGA** » Wed May 3, 2017 1:26 pm

sikma42 wrote:Different eras, different rules

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Handchecking has made a pretty big comeback the last 2 or 3 years. Almost never see it called.

Lauri_Legend · Post #4 » by **Lauri_Legend** » Wed May 3, 2017 1:26 pm

ClipsFanSince98 wrote:Anyone who disagrees can fight me with actual data and evidence. I'm addressing this because I see people constantly pissing on IT while Iverson is on some nostalgic pedestal and it annoys me. Both were mediocre defenders who got steals in the passing lanes but not much else (although Iverson was better defensively). Isaiah's efficiency on offense more than makes up for PG defense.

"But defense!" People need to realize PG defense was never a huge thing. Sure, big PG's like Gary Payton, Jason Kidd, Dennis Johnson who also guarded 2s and 3s. But most other hall of fame PG's didn't play a lick of defense. Stop being hypocritical.

I'll fight you with common sense. No.

TheKingOfVa360 · Post #5 » by **TheKingOfVa360** » Wed May 3, 2017 1:26 pm

No, Iverson in this era with the current rules would be on another level. Remember he played in a slow paced era with hand checking and 7 foot shot blockers lurking in the paint.

homecourtloss · Post #6 » by **homecourtloss** » Wed May 3, 2017 1:27 pm

Offensively, absolutely.

OkcSinceSGA · Post #7 » by **OkcSinceSGA** » Wed May 3, 2017 1:28 pm

diebieber wrote:
ClipsFanSince98 wrote:Anyone who disagrees can fight me with actual data and evidence. I'm addressing this because I see people constantly pissing on IT while Iverson is on some nostalgic pedestal and it annoys me. Both were mediocre defenders who got steals in the passing lanes but not much else (although Iverson was better defensively). Isaiah's efficiency on offense more than makes up for PG defense.

"But defense!" People need to realize PG defense was never a huge thing. Sure, big PG's like Gary Payton, Jason Kidd, Dennis Johnson who also guarded 2s and 3s. But most other hall of fame PG's didn't play a lick of defense. Stop being hypocritical.

I'll fight you with common sense. No.

I'm waiting for the common sense. Why is 2017 Isaiah not better than Iverson's best?

rygar · Post #8 » by **rygar** » Wed May 3, 2017 1:29 pm

Prime Iverson was an MVP. Isaiah not even on the 1st team. Case closed.

OkcSinceSGA · Post #9 » by **OkcSinceSGA** » Wed May 3, 2017 1:29 pm

homecourtloss wrote:Offensively, absolutely.

Offense is what Iverson was. He sure as hell wasn't known for defense or to a lesser degree playmaking. Would you also not agree offense is far more important for a PG than defense? If Iverson was Jason Kidd on defense maybe he'd have a case, but he wasnt.

OkcSinceSGA · Post #10 » by **OkcSinceSGA** » Wed May 3, 2017 1:29 pm

rygar wrote:Prime Iverson was an MVP. Isaiah not even on the 1st team. Case closed.

So popularity, not logic and data should settle this?

skones · Post #11 » by **skones** » Wed May 3, 2017 1:30 pm

ClipsFanSince98 wrote:
diebieber wrote:
ClipsFanSince98 wrote:Anyone who disagrees can fight me with actual data and evidence. I'm addressing this because I see people constantly pissing on IT while Iverson is on some nostalgic pedestal and it annoys me. Both were mediocre defenders who got steals in the passing lanes but not much else (although Iverson was better defensively). Isaiah's efficiency on offense more than makes up for PG defense.

"But defense!" People need to realize PG defense was never a huge thing. Sure, big PG's like Gary Payton, Jason Kidd, Dennis Johnson who also guarded 2s and 3s. But most other hall of fame PG's didn't play a lick of defense. Stop being hypocritical.

I'll fight you with common sense. No.

I'm waiting for the common sense. Why is 2017 Isaiah not better than Iverson's best?

Is your evidence purely statistical? Because if it is, you're opening up a can of worms with regards to comparing players from different eras.

OkcSinceSGA · Post #12 » by **OkcSinceSGA** » Wed May 3, 2017 1:31 pm

It's easy to score 30 ppg as an extremely high volume scorer (assuming you're good enough). It's way, way more difficult to put up 30 ppg while maintaining elite efficiency.

sikma42 · Post #13 » by **sikma42** » Wed May 3, 2017 1:33 pm

ClipsFanSince98 wrote:
sikma42 wrote:Different eras, different rules

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Handchecking has made a pretty big comeback the last 2 or 3 years. Almost never see it called.

Yea, because players have adjusted. On top of that the floor is much more spread in this era

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

OkcSinceSGA · Post #14 » by **OkcSinceSGA** » Wed May 3, 2017 1:34 pm

skones wrote:
ClipsFanSince98 wrote:
diebieber wrote:
I'll fight you with common sense. No.

I'm waiting for the common sense. Why is 2017 Isaiah not better than Iverson's best?

Is your evidence purely statistical? Because if it is, you're opening up a can of worms with regards to comparing players from different eras.

Open the can of worms. Because the era argument is endlessly circular as we've seen. Wilt would be DeAndre Jordan in 2017 blah blah. The reality here is Iverson gets a pass because he was a tough guy. Because pure, objective data is hard to overcome, even if you try to compensate for era. As I said early I see handchecking constantly now and it's never called. I saw a huge resurgence in it about 2 or 3 years ago and wondered why refs stopped calling it.

In watching IT play it's not wide open stuff. It's a lot of shots made with contact or that are acrobatic in nature. He's not just being left alone. He's getting hit.

sikma42 · Post #15 » by **sikma42** » Wed May 3, 2017 1:36 pm

ClipsFanSince98 wrote:
skones wrote:
ClipsFanSince98 wrote:
I'm waiting for the common sense. Why is 2017 Isaiah not better than Iverson's best?

Is your evidence purely statistical? Because if it is, you're opening up a can of worms with regards to comparing players from different eras.

Open the can of worms. Because the era argument is endlessly circular as we've seen. Wilt would be DeAndre Jordan in 2017 blah blah. The reality here is Iverson gets a pass because he was a tough guy. Because pure, subjective data is hard to overcome, even if you try to compensate for era. As I said early I see handchecking constantly now and it's never called. I saw a huge resurgence in it about 2 or 3 years ago and wondered why refs stopped calling it.

I question your ability to interpret data when you don't understand the difference between objective and subjective...just saying

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Post #16 » by **Prez** » Wed May 3, 2017 1:36 pm

Iverson was getting sent to the floor whenever he went to the paint while Isaiah gets a foul call for getting looked at. Denying the rule changes and difference in physicality that favors perimeter players today compared to one of the most brutal defensive eras in basketball is just absurd.

Post #17 » by **Doctor MJ** » Wed May 3, 2017 1:36 pm

sikma42 wrote:Different eras, different rules

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Yes but: Iverson chose to settle for crappy shots.

It was harder to score as a hobbit back then...which was why Iverson would have been better had he shot more wisely.

There are still guys today who can't seem to figure what a good shot is. Westbrook is one of them, though he's way smarter at it than Iverson.

The cleverness of Isaiah's shooting is drastically superior to anything we saw from AI.

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

rygar · Post #18 » by **rygar** » Wed May 3, 2017 1:37 pm

ClipsFanSince98 wrote:
rygar wrote:Prime Iverson was an MVP. Isaiah not even on the 1st team. Case closed.

So popularity, not logic and data should settle this?

All star game is the popularity contest. MVP is awarded to the most valuable player.

Papi_swav · Post #19 » by **Papi_swav** » Wed May 3, 2017 1:37 pm

No No No, he will never be as good as Iverson. Different eras, Iverson would be at the free throw line 15 times a game today, especially with the crappy calls IT always get. Iverson was never a flop either and he wasn't always a liability like IT on defense.

OkcSinceSGA · Post #20 » by **OkcSinceSGA** » Wed May 3, 2017 1:38 pm

sikma42 wrote:
ClipsFanSince98 wrote:
skones wrote:
Is your evidence purely statistical? Because if it is, you're opening up a can of worms with regards to comparing players from different eras.

Open the can of worms. Because the era argument is endlessly circular as we've seen. Wilt would be DeAndre Jordan in 2017 blah blah. The reality here is Iverson gets a pass because he was a tough guy. Because pure, subjective data is hard to overcome, even if you try to compensate for era. As I said early I see handchecking constantly now and it's never called. I saw a huge resurgence in it about 2 or 3 years ago and wondered why refs stopped calling it.

I question your ability to interpret data when you don't understand the difference between objective and subjective...just saying

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

It was a typo. I know the difference obviously as i use both words regularly. But if that's your comeback instead of an actual reason Iverson is superior, I'll take that as you don't have an argument.

Is this true?