Kyrie needs to be in the top 5 player discussion...Celtics record 10-2 Cavs 5-6..MVP year

[Saciid11]

LeBron sits for 30 second they give up 6 points, can't play D and can't execute at the offensive end .Kyrie is one of the best one on one player, but there is no way he close to being top5 player... Especially with that defence and not having ability to run a team ...

[Seabass11]

He's gotta learn to sustain his success with Bron on the bench before this discussion. But I do think he is the best ISO scorer in the league. The number of ways he can finish is incredible

[HiRez]

The guy is so dominant at times

Kyrie is having a better finals than Curry.

The bold part is the key phrase. That applies to a lot of players. You could even say that about Kevin Love or Klay Thompson.

Also, I don't know what Finals you have been watching but Steph had 3 great games, and one bad one (and still had 10 assists in that one).

Don't get me wrong, Kyrie is really good, I just think you're going a little overboard in your analysis and comparisons.

[og15]

Honestly, I'm not even sure if he's not the greatest player in game.

Well at least you didn't deny he outplayed LBJ in a critical elimination game.

He is not even a top 5 PG. Just because he had 2 great games in a row doesn't make him a top 5 player in the NBA...

Look at his stats for the season...last year's finals...this year's finals...hes the reason the Cavs are alive and breathing right now. Why would I pick Curry over a Kyrie who consistently out performs him in the finals 2 years in a row.

This problem you'll run into with these proclamations is that the actual primary reason you are propping up Kyrie is because his team has had playoff success and he gets to have his performances at the biggest stage. The primary reason for his teams playoff success has been Lebron. This doesn't mean he doesn't contribute, of course he does, a good amount, but take out Lebron, leave him with Kevin Love, and add a decent SF, and you wouldn't be giving Kyrie any of these same props because his team would be out in the 2nd round.

We can look at his season stats, but we can also look at Damian Lillard's season stats as a first option, and how is Kyrie doing any better? Chris Paul with Blake Griffin out for 4.5 of the 7 games averaged 25/5/10 with a .592 TS% vs Utah and he didn't have the luxury of being able to win games if he basically wasn't the best player in the game. Okay, so one can say, "well finals performances", and that is great, yes, but he gets to be in the finals because he plays with Lebron and he is still the second option and secondary focus behind Lebron, and that is a big difference.

Lillard for example is the primary focus of a team like GS's defense, if that was the case for Kyrie, things would change, he would be doubled off screens, he would get a couple fewer open shots, he would now be relied on to not just focusing on scoring for himself, but also getting teammates good shots all game. He's now bringing the ball up and expending that energy all game, all things Lebron takes off his hands, but other players have to do in addition to their scoring.

Lillard had a horrible game 2, but he had 34, 31, 34 in the other three games vs GS in this seasons playoffs. So now we see Kyrie who didn't really do much success wise before Lebron, even though, yes, his teammates weren't anything special, but he didn't do anything even decent yet winning wise. Now the nice thing for him is that he gets to play with Lebron, which equals instant success, and then he's also still young, so we can then just say "sure he gets to play with Lebron, but he's also improved from the player before Lebron", and now he gets covered on all angles because we don't have to see Kyrie without Lebron at this current stage and the level of play and success now can just be attributed to him also improving. It's a nice win all around for him.

Kyrie currently has the luxury of having a 11/2/6 game on 4/11 FG in the playoffs and his team wins by 13 points or 16/5/4 on 7/21 FG and his team wins by 21 points, or 13/2/4 on 4/17 FG and his team wins by 5 points. The issue when we start comparing is that few other players have that luxury. It's basically the secondary options on Cleveland and GS that have the luxury of having games like that and winning, but other players don't have that at all.

[ninjamilk23]

Great post man. That's the bad thing with LeBron he will always elevate any role-player's game but can never do the same with allstar level especially ball dominant players.

Steph and Klay playing with LeBron would actually benefit each other really well. Both shooters are great being effective without the ball.

Are you calling Kyrie a role player? Kyrie was a 2x all star (and all star MVP) before playing with LeBron.

Nah I'm not saying that. I think Kyrie is very fortunate to have LeBron as a teammate but what I'm trying to say is players like Wade, Bosh, and Love always gets the blame for playing subpar next to LeBron. But you gotta start thinking that maybe LeBron system is what's prevented them from doing so much more.

[Braggins]

Kyrie is so criminally underrated and underappreciated. Everyone's still attributing it to the "Lebron factor," implying that any other decent PG in the league would score 38 and 40 points in back to back finals games simply coz he got Lebron as teammate. He utterly outplayed Curry, outscoring him 40 to 14, and people even barely talk about it. If it was the other way around there probably would be at least 5 threads about it. You'd think that after last year's finals, where Kyrie stood toe-to-toe against the 2x MVP, that people would start giving Irving the recognition he deserves, but the truth is by the time the next season starts, there will yet again be another Kyrie vs Lowry debate instead of comparing him against the likes of Curry, Westbrook or Wall.

The problem is that Kyrie is caught between two sides.

The one side is that he simply doesn't possess the gravity that Curry brings to a team on a nightly basis. We all know that from the moment that he crosses half court, he is a threat to bomb from deep. It's the reason why CLE traps him so high, hedges so hard on PnR, and plays physical with him. They are trying to do everything that they can to inhibit the ease with which he can make 3s at an extremely high volume. Kyrie is good but he doesn't have the type of draw nor the ability to open the floor for others that Steph does.

The other side is actually the more compelling one. There is a large contingent of LBJ supporters that need to prop up the narrative that LeBron has the midas touch; any garbage he plays with turns into gold. And by box score measurements and a surface analysis of the game, it would appear to be true.

However, most people honestly do not understand that it isn't easy being LeBron's teammate, especially one as talented as Kyrie.

There is a sacrifice to one's personal game that you have to make in order to play with him. Yes, you do get the benefit of playing in a near elite offensive system, but it surely isn't a democratic one.

LBJ plays free safety on defense which helps him reach rebounding totals very quickly. He brings the ball up, initiates the offense, beats his man off the dribble, and gives you the ball so that you can shoot a 3. (This obviously racks up the assists.) The only time another player runs sets is when LBJ doesn't feel like doing it. Because of this, he will always have tremendous box score numbers. Simply by the nature of running with LBJ, it would be much harder for anyone to put up great number consistently considering that plays aren't designed to be run through them often.

Bosh and Wade underwent the same treatment over time. Bosh warned Love ahead of time, yet Love didn't understand it until he experienced himself.

On one hand, you need to attribute it to LBJ's greatness that he is almost always a mismatch when he has the ball in his hands, and thus you can regularly expect the defense to collapse when he inevitably beats his man off the dribble or in PnR.

At the same time, LeBron's teammates are all marginalized in the sense that by letting LBJ do everything, his teammates can't do all that they may want to do. For some like JR, Shumpert, and Korver, it's great because he enables you to just focus on your strengths. But got guys like Wade, Bosh, Love, and Kyrie, it's very tough because you know that you can do so much more, but you're sort of being forced to primarily become just a shooter. They're not really allowed to showcase their strengths as much as they'd like because it doesn't go with the LBJ system. Thus, they're often critiqued for not flourishing in a role that they were never really designed to play in.

Players who are or could be developed into greater talents are by design reduced to shooters. And shooters know that completely wide open in-game shots are actually not easy to hit, since they usually aren't rhythm shots.

The hardest part of the play, which is making the shot, falls on his teammates. LBJ has some of the best spot up shooters surrounding him but it goes to show that it's very hard to always show up on demand like that, especially when you're not allowed to get into your own rhythm.

LBJ kills two birds with one stone with the system that his teams run. He generates all of the action (hence why we don't often see too many hockey assists from them) and can put up fantastic numbers, but his teammates have to be elite marksmen all of the time which is impossible for any one to do. By nature of LBJ's greatness but also by design of the system, his better teammates (who aren't 3&D players by nature) are essentially setup to always come up short.



Sent from my SM-N900T using RealGM mobile app

If Kyrie was so great of a player he would be able to carry the offense doing the same Lebron drive and kick system, just like all the other true superstars pretty much do. Kyrie is impossible to stay in front of when hes handling the ball, so there is no reason he shouldn't be able to excel doing the same thing Lebron does on offense when Lebron is off the court (or at least very similar). However, that isn't what happens and the team basically collapses most of the time when Lebron isn't on the floor. A huge part of that is because their defense collapses, which certainly isn't entirely on Kyrie, but he is a terrible defender and a big part of that problem. Also, Kyrie just can't consistently carry an offense by himself like true superstar players can, for reasons that have already been mentioned (low iq, tunnel visions, lack of playmaking/vision, inconsistency). When he goes Uncle Drew god mode he can carry a team because he can put up tons of points on amazing efficiency very quickly, but when he isn't doing that he really isn't doing a whole lot that has a large effect on his team winning.

People need to stop acting like the fact that other players, no matter who they are, have to take on a secondary role to Lebron when they play with him is somehow a knock on Lebron. It is this way because Lebron is simply the best player and best offensive machine in the game. Curry is the only player who has an offensive impact on Lebrons level (possibly greater), but that is largely because the gravity he creates off ball is completely unprecedented. He isn't as effective as Lebron at creating offense while dominating the ball, though. Curry + Lebron would honestly probably be the best offensive combination in the history of basketball. If you swapped Kyrie and Steph the Cavs would win this series easily imo.

edit: I do give Kyrie a lot of credit for being clutch. Dude is a gamer and is never afraid of any moment.

[Mind_Odyssey]

Regardless of the Kyrie vs Curry debate. We all need to acknowledge that Durant is clearly the best player for the Warriors and the gap between Curry and other PGs isn't that big (if it exists).

[sikma42]

Regardless of the Kyrie vs Curry debate. We all need to acknowledge that Durant is clearly the best player for the Warriors and the gap between Curry and other PGs isn't that big (if it exists).

If one were to acknowledge that then the board would have to look in the mirror and shame itself for the Curry is Jordan's equal offensively posting...


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[Hello Brooklyn]

Kyrie did not guard Curry "all of last night."

What game were you people watching?

The Cavs were putting double teams on Steph all night and were denying him the ball. It wasn't single coverage with Kyrie.

He had a great 2 games but hes still terrible defensively, useless off the ball, not a great playmaker, and unable to lead them team with LeBron on the bench.

All of the advanced stats will back me up on this.

[Hello Brooklyn]

Regardless of the Kyrie vs Curry debate. We all need to acknowledge that Durant is clearly the best player for the Warriors and the gap between Curry and other PGs isn't that big (if it exists).

Durant is putting up great stats but hes not as important to the Warriors as Curry is.

Curry is still the one that makes the offense go. If hes off, the team becomes terrible.

As far as the gap between Curry and the 2nd best, I don't think its close.

Hes way better than Westbrook/Harden. Neither of those two have shown the capability to lead a team to the Finals.

Kyrie still isn't even the best Point Guard in the East.

John Wall is still better than him and if Isaiah wasn't such a huge defensive liability due to his size, he would be better as well.

[NickAnderson]

A lot of Kyrie hate in this thread. He's only 25 doing this in the finals and what not.

And the people that mentioned Lowry and Lillard would play better then Kyrie with lebron? No way in hell.

His handles and finishing at the rim is way better then anyone in the league. That's why he's playing very well.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[HotRocks34]

Well at least you didn't deny he outplayed LBJ in a critical elimination game.

GAME 4 STATS

LeBron On --------> +32
LeBron Off --------> -11
LeBron On/Off ---> +43

Kyrie On -----------> +07
Kyrie Off ----------> +14
Kyrie On/Off ------> -07


LeBron ORTG/DRTG/NRTG --------> 139/117/+22
Kyrie ORTG/DRTG/NRTG ----------> 139/123/+16


If your team was better without you on the court in a particular game, it's highly doubtful that you outplayed your teammate who was +43 On/Off in the same game.

[UnbelievablyRAW]

Top 3 scoring talent imo. As the an overall player? Naw

Look at the Cavs everytime Lebron sits for 40 seconds. The run GS will go on if its just Kyrie happens like clockwork

[imraged]

There is a sacrifice to one's personal game that you have to make in order to play with him. Yes, you do get the benefit of playing in a near elite offensive system, but it surely isn't a democratic one.

Kyrie hasn't had to sacrifice anything. His usg% and time of possession dropped slightly their first season together. The past couple of seasons both metrics have been virtually identical to his pre-LeBron years and both were higher than LeBron's this season.

Neither did Wade for that matter he just got old/injured.

He generates all of the action (hence why we don't often see too many hockey assists from them)

They were sixth in the league in hockey assists.

Kyrie has those same elite shooters surrounding him when LeBron is out. If he's such a great player there's no reason he shouldn't be able to carry a competent offense yet over the last couple of seasons they've consistently looked completely inept any time Kyrie is on and LeBron is out.

[HotRocks34]

Points Created (Points scored + points assisted) in Game 4

LeBron ----------> 60
Kyrie ------------> 50

[BayArea408415]

GAME 4 STATS

LeBron On --------> +32
LeBron Off -------> -11
LeBron On/Off ---> +43

Do you happen to have LeBron's on stats for when Durant/Curry are both sitting? I'm curious if it inflates his on/off +/- at all or if I'm off base with that assumption.

[tdotrep2]

He's done absolutely nothing in his career without LeBron

[AdagioPace]

top 5 SG??

[HotRocks34]

GAME 4 STATS

LeBron On --------> +32
LeBron Off -------> -11
LeBron On/Off ---> +43

Do you happen to have LeBron's on stats for when Durant/Curry are both sitting? I'm curious if it inflates his on/off +/- at all or if I'm off base with that assumption.

I do not have that. I'm not sure that stat is available, although maybe it is. I know you can check to see how a guy does when his teammate sits, not sure if you can do it for when a particular opponent sits. Maybe you can, but I'm not sure.

[rebirthoftheM]

This thread aint about kyrie. It is about Lebron James, with the pro and anti camps going at it using Kyrie as a prop. No need to conceal it.