SOUL wrote:Blue Dream
1 of my top 3 daytime faves along with Northern Lights and Maui Waui.
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SOUL wrote:Blue Dream
GrandTheftRondo wrote:RingsDontLie wrote:Someone needs to say it. May go down as one of the worst moves in NBA history.
Another quality thread from you.
I'm not in love with the deal right now but this is far from the worst moves in NBA history. Especially claiming that right at this moment. Absolutely laughable.
Dominater wrote:GrandTheftRondo wrote:RingsDontLie wrote:Someone needs to say it. May go down as one of the worst moves in NBA history.
Another quality thread from you.
I'm not in love with the deal right now but this is far from the worst moves in NBA history. Especially claiming that right at this moment. Absolutely laughable.
Yea it's not even close to all time worst. In fact, it's highly likely that it will take 2-3 years before we even know who made out better from this
Wilfried wrote:ChiCityHoops34 wrote:Boston picks after already being a one seed this year.
2017 PHI 1st
2018 BOS 1st - late 1st round
2018 LAL 1st - only possible 2-5
2018 BKN 1st
2019 BOS 1st - late 1st round
2019 LAC 1st - protected 1-14
2019 SAC 1st - if Lakers pick doesn't fall in 2018
2019 MEM 1st - protected 1-8 or 1-6 in 2020
I would kill to be in the Celtics position right now
It's either 2018 LA pick or 2019 SAC pick, not both.
Together with this year's 3rd pick, the BKN 2018 pick and the LA/SAC pick are very very nice assets (although a lot can happen in 1 summer).
All the rest are low 1st round picks or pretty decent protected picks. So really nothing game changing.
And the picks need to be shipped, because I don't see the possibility to AND try to be a real contender AND built for the future.
But if they decide to go fot the future, at this moment they are with:
Jaylen Brown
Tatum/Josh Jackson/Dennis Smith/...?
BKN 2018
LA/SAC pick
That's very pretty ... but to me not even enough to challenge the other teams with a lot of bright future, like Milwaukee, Denver, Philadelphia and maybe even Minnesota.
EmperorLocky wrote:Looking at the 2019 picks I'm keen to watch Boston go 1,2,3 in the lottery.
NormanDale wrote:simmbiid wrote:zronv7 wrote:Fultz has a loser mentality, he's not fit for the Celtics who hold a prestigious winning mentality.
Do you want salt with those chips on your shoulders?
48 hours ago, Boston fans were calling him a beast and the consensus number 1 pick. Now, he has a losing mentality, low motor, bust potential, etc.
In all honesty, it was the right decision for both teams. Boston didn't want another guard and felt they could get what they wanted at a lower pick and walk away with another asset, and the sixers wanted him badly due to his fit on the team. A win-win for both. Both GMs were happy, I figure.
I agree with your first point. Either Fultz is a stud or he's not, but he can't be a stud when he's going to Boston and mediocre when he's going to Philly.
You're wrong about the second point, because (1) I doubt "fit" is the reason for the trade, and if it is, it's a stupid reason. You don't trade the #1 pick for fit reasons, you take the best player. None of the Celtics guards are worth passing on a future star, if that's what fultz is.
No, Ainge has convinced himself that Fultz is not the best player in the draft, and has his heart set on Jackson or Tatum. He probably considered shocking everyone by picking his real favorite at 1, but then realized he could get him anyway and add a future asset.
This move makes sense if you believe that the guy who wanted to trade 4 first round picks for Justice Winslow knows more about who will be the best player in this draft than everyone else combined.
I'm skeptical.
Ponchos wrote:Wilfried wrote:
That's very pretty ... but to me not even enough to challenge the other teams with a lot of bright future, like Milwaukee, Denver, Philadelphia and maybe even Minnesota.
You rate their future higher than Minny? I mean, who the heck do the Nuggets have aside from Jokic? They have a lot of nice role-players but Mudiay can't shoot and has been underwhelming, Murray might be alright. What am I missing?
I'd take Boston's present and future over Denver.
ChiCityHoops34 wrote:Boston picks after already being a one seed this year.
2017 PHI 1st
2018 BOS 1st
2018 LAL 1st
2018 BKN 1st
2019 BOS 1st
2019 LAC 1st
2019 SAC 1st
2019 MEM 1st
I would kill to be in the Celtics position right now
Wilfried wrote:Ponchos wrote:Wilfried wrote:
That's very pretty ... but to me not even enough to challenge the other teams with a lot of bright future, like Milwaukee, Denver, Philadelphia and maybe even Minnesota.
You rate their future higher than Minny? I mean, who the heck do the Nuggets have aside from Jokic? They have a lot of nice role-players but Mudiay can't shoot and has been underwhelming, Murray might be alright. What am I missing?
I'd take Boston's present and future over Denver.
Yes. Because Boston still has to find it's Jokic (franchise talent).
Brown and Jackson/Smith/Tatum is to me equal to Murray/Harris (you forgot him, very decent prospect).
And Denver has a lot of trade chips (Barton/Chandler/Farried) to add more talent to that team.
I think they have a very, very nice future.
Ponchos wrote:Wilfried wrote:Ponchos wrote:
You rate their future higher than Minny? I mean, who the heck do the Nuggets have aside from Jokic? They have a lot of nice role-players but Mudiay can't shoot and has been underwhelming, Murray might be alright. What am I missing?
I'd take Boston's present and future over Denver.
Yes. Because Boston still has to find it's Jokic (franchise talent).
Brown and Jackson/Smith/Tatum is to me equal to Murray/Harris (you forgot him, very decent prospect).
And Denver has a lot of trade chips (Barton/Chandler/Farried) to add more talent to that team.
I think they have a very, very nice future.
Okay, but I mean, Isaiah Thomas is going to get MVP votes this year. Jokic hasn't even gotten into an all-star game. I like Harris, but he's a role-player. A good one though. A guy like Avery Bradley >>> Harris.
Jokic also is a bad rim-protector and defender and that hamstrings your team a lot when you have to play him at C. I question whether you can go far in the NBA with a C who plays so poorly on D. I'd rather have Brown + 3rd 2017 + Lal or Sac pick than Jokic, just because I think his upside is capped. He won't be a superstar.
You mention Denver's trade chips, but Boston has far more. Picks, all-star players, role-players.
Denver is also in trouble because they don't have the potential talent to compete for the top spots, and they aren't bad enough to get a good draft pick. They're picking 13th in the lotto this year. Meanwhile, Brooklyn tanks for the Celtics.
Krazykiwi wrote:Ainge is just dumb. He's lucked into most of the those picks, and IT was gift wrapped to him for free. Let's face it, nobody ever expected IT to be this good, it was one of the meaningless trades to get IT just for the sake of getting IT. it's not like Ainge knows how good IT would become. Then he went out and gave max contract to Harford. what does that signal? you are ready to put together a competitive team. Then he's lucked into a no.1 pick when his team has won 53 games and no.1 seed in the east. Now you have enough young players and draft picks in the coming years, why stockpile more? If you don't like Fults, then make the trade no.1 for Bulter, who's under contract for 2 more years and an excellent player. If you are a team like Boston right now, would you be better off with Bulter or someone like jackson and next year's pick who knows what's going to be. Prove talents almost always better than the unknowns. if you like Fults then take him and call it a day. you don't mess around and draft someone like Jackson while someone like Bulter could be had for the no.1 pick. I think Ainge really just clueless, he has no direction.
Wilfried wrote:Ponchos wrote:Wilfried wrote:
Yes. Because Boston still has to find it's Jokic (franchise talent).
Brown and Jackson/Smith/Tatum is to me equal to Murray/Harris (you forgot him, very decent prospect).
And Denver has a lot of trade chips (Barton/Chandler/Farried) to add more talent to that team.
I think they have a very, very nice future.
Okay, but I mean, Isaiah Thomas is going to get MVP votes this year. Jokic hasn't even gotten into an all-star game. I like Harris, but he's a role-player. A good one though. A guy like Avery Bradley >>> Harris.
Jokic also is a bad rim-protector and defender and that hamstrings your team a lot when you have to play him at C. I question whether you can go far in the NBA with a C who plays so poorly on D. I'd rather have Brown + 3rd 2017 + Lal or Sac pick than Jokic, just because I think his upside is capped. He won't be a superstar.
You mention Denver's trade chips, but Boston has far more. Picks, all-star players, role-players.
Denver is also in trouble because they don't have the potential talent to compete for the top spots, and they aren't bad enough to get a good draft pick. They're picking 13th in the lotto this year. Meanwhile, Brooklyn tanks for the Celtics.
And I meant that if Boston decides to go for a rebuild 1 day, there are teams (even if they have a load of picks) in better situation.
Jokic has a DRPM better than LeBron and Kawhi. And in Wins% he was 10th in the NBA, in RPM 6th (and he had a real slow start to the season). Stats don't tell everything, but they tell something, no?
That guy seems a franchise player and will be an Allstar next season.
Boston really doesn't have that kind of guy to built a possible contender around.
They have a lot of good players, great mentality, very good coach, a lot of assets, ... and they play in a weak division.
Ponchos wrote:Wilfried wrote:Ponchos wrote:
Jokic has a DRPM better than LeBron and Kawhi. And in Wins% he was 10th in the NBA, in RPM 6th (and he had a real slow start to the season). Stats don't tell everything, but they tell something, no?
That guy seems a franchise player and will be an Allstar next season.
Boston really doesn't have that kind of guy to built a possible contender around.
They have a lot of good players, great mentality, very good coach, a lot of assets, ... and they play in a weak division.
Have you watched a lot of Jokic? He is NOT a good defender.
He's an All-Star for sure. Superstar? Up there with LeBron/Durant/Curry/Kawhi/Westbrook? Nope.
But I guess we'll see!
Wilfried wrote:Ponchos wrote:Wilfried wrote:
Have you watched a lot of Jokic? He is NOT a good defender.
He's an All-Star for sure. Superstar? Up there with LeBron/Durant/Curry/Kawhi/Westbrook? Nope.
But I guess we'll see!
We'll see indeed.
Video clips and stats are not the same. I can make a video that makes Okafor a better version of Gobert, of Gobert a lesser version of Okafor
https://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM
Check for yourself.
You can be a superstar if your offense is that elite too btw. Look at Stephen Curry, who is a mediocre defender at best. Or Harden.
If you're surrounded by good defenders and a good defensive scheme, you look like a good defender too.
azcatz11 wrote:Fico92 wrote:azcatz11 wrote:
Fultz is generational.
(azcatz11)
Generational talent = a Durant, LeBron, Duncan, Kobe, etc...someone who might end up top 20 all time.
You put Fultz in that class?
Generational = top 100 player. Yes, I do put him in that class sir.
Ponchos wrote:
So do you think that Bebe Noguiera, Aron Baynes and David West are better defenders than Kawhi and Jokic?
Also, Steph Curry isn't a C. He isn't the anchor of the Defense. You can't have a Center who plays crap D and still be a superstar. That's why a guy like Gobert will always be better than Jokic if you want to win.
Wilfried wrote:Ponchos wrote:
So do you think that Bebe Noguiera, Aron Baynes and David West are better defenders than Kawhi and Jokic?
Also, Steph Curry isn't a C. He isn't the anchor of the Defense. You can't have a Center who plays crap D and still be a superstar. That's why a guy like Gobert will always be better than Jokic if you want to win.
Pachulia is the anchor of the Warriors D than?
No I don't think Noguiera, Baynes and West are better defenders than Kawhi.
You cannot compare players who only play a couple of minutes with a very clear defensive role to players who play both end of the floor for 35+ minutes.
But let's leave it here. To me, Jokic is a franchise talent, with which I mean you can built a contender around. You probably will need to add good defensive players around him. But I don't see him as an incredible liability on D (like Okafor), so it would be impossible with him in the middle to win something.
First because the stats tell different and second because being incredibly good at offense is very valuable too.