What is Ainge and Magic smoking?

Moderators: magnumt, ken6199, BombsquadSammy, Yuri Vaultin, Tarik Black, Mr. E, bwgood77, Rhettmatic, Duke4life831, KF10, GimmeDat, Knickstape1214, DayofMourning, Capn'O, Dirk, CoreyGallagher

User avatar
roc
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 14,232
And1: 948
Joined: May 29, 2006
Location: roc city

Re: What is Ainge smoking? 

Post#61 » by roc » Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:00 am

SOUL wrote:Blue Dream

1 of my top 3 daytime faves along with Northern Lights and Maui Waui. :D
Image
the crux of the biscuit is the apostrophe
User avatar
Dominater
Head Coach
Posts: 6,601
And1: 3,316
Joined: Jan 16, 2005
Location: Cuba

Re: What is Ainge smoking? 

Post#62 » by Dominater » Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:02 am

GrandTheftRondo wrote:
RingsDontLie wrote:Someone needs to say it. May go down as one of the worst moves in NBA history.

Another quality thread from you. :roll:

I'm not in love with the deal right now but this is far from the worst moves in NBA history. Especially claiming that right at this moment. Absolutely laughable.

Yea it's not even close to all time worst. In fact, it's highly likely that it will take 2-3 years before we even know who made out better from this
KC: Do you still think your a championship caliber team?
Gar: I never said that and correct me if i'm wrong
KC: You were asked that question at the news conference announcing Thibodeau's dismissal and you answered yes
User avatar
EmperorLocky
Pro Prospect
Posts: 849
And1: 1,284
Joined: Apr 02, 2013
Location: Townsville, QLD, Australia

Re: What is Ainge smoking? 

Post#63 » by EmperorLocky » Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:11 am

Looking at the 2019 picks I'm keen to watch Boston go 1,2,3 in the lottery.
User avatar
GrandTheftRondo
Analyst
Posts: 3,637
And1: 581
Joined: Dec 02, 2010
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: What is Ainge smoking? 

Post#64 » by GrandTheftRondo » Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:13 am

Dominater wrote:
GrandTheftRondo wrote:
RingsDontLie wrote:Someone needs to say it. May go down as one of the worst moves in NBA history.

Another quality thread from you. :roll:

I'm not in love with the deal right now but this is far from the worst moves in NBA history. Especially claiming that right at this moment. Absolutely laughable.

Yea it's not even close to all time worst. In fact, it's highly likely that it will take 2-3 years before we even know who made out better from this

Exactly. It's a trade that nobody can really judge until we at least see Fultz and whoever Boston drafts.

The 76ers needed Fultz. If he's everything they said he can be then he's going to be a really good fit next to Simmons and Embiid. If he isn't then this could easily end up being an all time bad trade for the 76ers.

I have my doubts about the Lakers ending up in the 2-5 range needed for us to get their pick, but I can't see how the Kings get drastically better by 2019. They need to be bad again this season, they need young talent to rebuild and 2018 is a great chance for them to do so. If that happens, unless they do some sort of stupid trade or overpay a few free agents that 2019 pick will be hovering around the bottom.

Now let's say Boston drafts Tatum or Jackson, the two we've heard a fair bit of noise about. If they turn into a great NBA player which is a fair chance when looking at the draft, that's a huge win for the Celtics. A great player plus another high draft pick for one pick would be a robbery.

Now of course that all changes if Fultz ends up being a Curry level PG but at this stage it's hard to say he will be. I was real happy to get pick one and liked the idea of drafting him, but I don't think any Boston fans were seriously thinking this was LeBron we were getting.

Judging this trade properly right now is impossible. The Nets-Celtics trade of 2013 should have taught all of us to wait a few years to see how a trade pans out when it comes to future picks. It certainly taught me that.
Ponchos
Analyst
Posts: 3,281
And1: 2,452
Joined: Jul 04, 2010

Re: What is Ainge smoking? 

Post#65 » by Ponchos » Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:17 am

Wilfried wrote:
ChiCityHoops34 wrote:Boston picks after already being a one seed this year.

2017 PHI 1st
2018 BOS 1st - late 1st round
2018 LAL 1st - only possible 2-5
2018 BKN 1st
2019 BOS 1st - late 1st round
2019 LAC 1st - protected 1-14
2019 SAC 1st - if Lakers pick doesn't fall in 2018
2019 MEM 1st - protected 1-8 or 1-6 in 2020

I would kill to be in the Celtics position right now


It's either 2018 LA pick or 2019 SAC pick, not both.

Together with this year's 3rd pick, the BKN 2018 pick and the LA/SAC pick are very very nice assets (although a lot can happen in 1 summer).

All the rest are low 1st round picks or pretty decent protected picks. So really nothing game changing.

And the picks need to be shipped, because I don't see the possibility to AND try to be a real contender AND built for the future.

But if they decide to go fot the future, at this moment they are with:
Jaylen Brown
Tatum/Josh Jackson/Dennis Smith/...?
BKN 2018
LA/SAC pick

That's very pretty ... but to me not even enough to challenge the other teams with a lot of bright future, like Milwaukee, Denver, Philadelphia and maybe even Minnesota.


You rate their future higher than Minny? I mean, who the heck do the Nuggets have aside from Jokic? They have a lot of nice role-players but Mudiay can't shoot and has been underwhelming, Murray might be alright. What am I missing?

I'd take Boston's present and future over Denver.
cammac wrote:Big Ben has a cult following but he was slightly better than Roy Hibbert.
:lol:
simmbiid
Senior
Posts: 714
And1: 416
Joined: Nov 15, 2016
     

Re: What is Ainge smoking? 

Post#66 » by simmbiid » Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:19 am

EmperorLocky wrote:Looking at the 2019 picks I'm keen to watch Boston go 1,2,3 in the lottery.

Since the Clippers pick is lottery protected, that would mean the Celtics being in the lottery. About as unlikely as the Blues winning back-to-back origin series. 8-)
simmbiid
Senior
Posts: 714
And1: 416
Joined: Nov 15, 2016
     

Re: What is Ainge smoking? 

Post#67 » by simmbiid » Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:34 am

NormanDale wrote:
simmbiid wrote:
zronv7 wrote:Fultz has a loser mentality, he's not fit for the Celtics who hold a prestigious winning mentality.




Do you want salt with those chips on your shoulders?

48 hours ago, Boston fans were calling him a beast and the consensus number 1 pick. Now, he has a losing mentality, low motor, bust potential, etc.

In all honesty, it was the right decision for both teams. Boston didn't want another guard and felt they could get what they wanted at a lower pick and walk away with another asset, and the sixers wanted him badly due to his fit on the team. A win-win for both. Both GMs were happy, I figure.


I agree with your first point. Either Fultz is a stud or he's not, but he can't be a stud when he's going to Boston and mediocre when he's going to Philly.

You're wrong about the second point, because (1) I doubt "fit" is the reason for the trade, and if it is, it's a stupid reason. You don't trade the #1 pick for fit reasons, you take the best player. None of the Celtics guards are worth passing on a future star, if that's what fultz is.

No, Ainge has convinced himself that Fultz is not the best player in the draft, and has his heart set on Jackson or Tatum. He probably considered shocking everyone by picking his real favorite at 1, but then realized he could get him anyway and add a future asset.

This move makes sense if you believe that the guy who wanted to trade 4 first round picks for Justice Winslow knows more about who will be the best player in this draft than everyone else combined.

I'm skeptical.


Do you realise how cocky you sound when you say somebody is wrong when they are just expressing an opinion? Lighten up.

Of course the sixers want Fultz because of fit. It just so happens that he is extremely gifted, which is why they were willing to trade up. The Celtics have a great PG already and a talented SG (Bradley). Their SFs are meh, so he could be seen as an upgrade over the ones they have. A combination of talent and need. That makes sense to avoid a log jam at certain positions and prevent your best players getting peeved when they lose minutes (aka Sixers center logjam).
Wilfried
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,525
And1: 227
Joined: May 24, 2007

Re: What is Ainge smoking? 

Post#68 » by Wilfried » Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:43 am

Ponchos wrote:
Wilfried wrote:
That's very pretty ... but to me not even enough to challenge the other teams with a lot of bright future, like Milwaukee, Denver, Philadelphia and maybe even Minnesota.


You rate their future higher than Minny? I mean, who the heck do the Nuggets have aside from Jokic? They have a lot of nice role-players but Mudiay can't shoot and has been underwhelming, Murray might be alright. What am I missing?

I'd take Boston's present and future over Denver.


Yes. Because Boston still has to find it's Jokic (franchise talent).

Brown and Jackson/Smith/Tatum is to me equal to Murray/Harris (you forgot him, very decent prospect).

And Denver has a lot of trade chips (Barton/Chandler/Farried) to add more talent to that team.

I think they have a very, very nice future.
Jables
Junior
Posts: 390
And1: 303
Joined: Jul 21, 2014
   

Re: What is Ainge smoking? 

Post#69 » by Jables » Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:46 am

ChiCityHoops34 wrote:Boston picks after already being a one seed this year.

2017 PHI 1st
2018 BOS 1st
2018 LAL 1st
2018 BKN 1st
2019 BOS 1st
2019 LAC 1st
2019 SAC 1st
2019 MEM 1st

I would kill to be in the Celtics position right now

Yeah who knows, might even get the top pick someday, get a good chance at a real superstar. Have you seen the players the Celtics have been taking the past few years with all their firsts?

This was a terrible trade.
Ponchos
Analyst
Posts: 3,281
And1: 2,452
Joined: Jul 04, 2010

Re: What is Ainge smoking? 

Post#70 » by Ponchos » Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:57 am

Wilfried wrote:
Ponchos wrote:
Wilfried wrote:
That's very pretty ... but to me not even enough to challenge the other teams with a lot of bright future, like Milwaukee, Denver, Philadelphia and maybe even Minnesota.


You rate their future higher than Minny? I mean, who the heck do the Nuggets have aside from Jokic? They have a lot of nice role-players but Mudiay can't shoot and has been underwhelming, Murray might be alright. What am I missing?

I'd take Boston's present and future over Denver.


Yes. Because Boston still has to find it's Jokic (franchise talent).

Brown and Jackson/Smith/Tatum is to me equal to Murray/Harris (you forgot him, very decent prospect).

And Denver has a lot of trade chips (Barton/Chandler/Farried) to add more talent to that team.

I think they have a very, very nice future.



Okay, but I mean, Isaiah Thomas is going to get MVP votes this year. Jokic hasn't even gotten into an all-star game. I like Harris, but he's a role-player. A good one though. But a guy like Avery Bradley >>> Harris.

Jokic also is a bad rim-protector and defender and that hamstrings your team a lot when you have to play him at C. I question whether you can go far in the NBA with a C who plays so poorly on D. I'd rather have Brown + 3rd 2017 + Lal or Sac pick than Jokic, just because I think his upside is capped. He won't be a superstar.

You mention Denver's trade chips, but Boston has far more. Picks, all-star players, role-players.

Denver is also in trouble because they don't have the potential talent to compete for the top spots, and they aren't bad enough to get a good draft pick. They're picking 13th in the lotto this year. Meanwhile, Brooklyn tanks for the Celtics.
cammac wrote:Big Ben has a cult following but he was slightly better than Roy Hibbert.
:lol:
Wilfried
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,525
And1: 227
Joined: May 24, 2007

Re: What is Ainge smoking? 

Post#71 » by Wilfried » Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:09 am

Ponchos wrote:
Wilfried wrote:
Ponchos wrote:
You rate their future higher than Minny? I mean, who the heck do the Nuggets have aside from Jokic? They have a lot of nice role-players but Mudiay can't shoot and has been underwhelming, Murray might be alright. What am I missing?

I'd take Boston's present and future over Denver.


Yes. Because Boston still has to find it's Jokic (franchise talent).

Brown and Jackson/Smith/Tatum is to me equal to Murray/Harris (you forgot him, very decent prospect).

And Denver has a lot of trade chips (Barton/Chandler/Farried) to add more talent to that team.

I think they have a very, very nice future.



Okay, but I mean, Isaiah Thomas is going to get MVP votes this year. Jokic hasn't even gotten into an all-star game. I like Harris, but he's a role-player. A good one though. A guy like Avery Bradley >>> Harris.

Jokic also is a bad rim-protector and defender and that hamstrings your team a lot when you have to play him at C. I question whether you can go far in the NBA with a C who plays so poorly on D. I'd rather have Brown + 3rd 2017 + Lal or Sac pick than Jokic, just because I think his upside is capped. He won't be a superstar.

You mention Denver's trade chips, but Boston has far more. Picks, all-star players, role-players.

Denver is also in trouble because they don't have the potential talent to compete for the top spots, and they aren't bad enough to get a good draft pick. They're picking 13th in the lotto this year. Meanwhile, Brooklyn tanks for the Celtics.


And I meant that if Boston decides to go for a rebuild 1 day, there are teams (even if they have a load of picks) in better situation.

Jokic has a DRPM better than LeBron and Kawhi. And in Wins% he was 10th in the NBA, in RPM 6th (and he had a real slow start to the season). Stats don't tell everything, but they tell something, no?

That guy seems a franchise player and will be an Allstar next season.

Boston really doesn't have that kind of guy to built a possible contender around.

They have a lot of good players, great mentality, very good coach, a lot of assets, ... and they play in a weak division.
jirrit
Veteran
Posts: 2,947
And1: 1,767
Joined: Mar 01, 2011
Location: Belgium
Contact:
   

Re: What is Ainge smoking? 

Post#72 » by jirrit » Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:10 am

Krazykiwi wrote:Ainge is just dumb. He's lucked into most of the those picks, and IT was gift wrapped to him for free. Let's face it, nobody ever expected IT to be this good, it was one of the meaningless trades to get IT just for the sake of getting IT. it's not like Ainge knows how good IT would become. Then he went out and gave max contract to Harford. what does that signal? you are ready to put together a competitive team. Then he's lucked into a no.1 pick when his team has won 53 games and no.1 seed in the east. Now you have enough young players and draft picks in the coming years, why stockpile more? If you don't like Fults, then make the trade no.1 for Bulter, who's under contract for 2 more years and an excellent player. If you are a team like Boston right now, would you be better off with Bulter or someone like jackson and next year's pick who knows what's going to be. Prove talents almost always better than the unknowns. if you like Fults then take him and call it a day. you don't mess around and draft someone like Jackson while someone like Bulter could be had for the no.1 pick. I think Ainge really just clueless, he has no direction.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Ponchos
Analyst
Posts: 3,281
And1: 2,452
Joined: Jul 04, 2010

Re: What is Ainge smoking? 

Post#73 » by Ponchos » Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:13 am

Wilfried wrote:
Ponchos wrote:
Wilfried wrote:
Yes. Because Boston still has to find it's Jokic (franchise talent).

Brown and Jackson/Smith/Tatum is to me equal to Murray/Harris (you forgot him, very decent prospect).

And Denver has a lot of trade chips (Barton/Chandler/Farried) to add more talent to that team.

I think they have a very, very nice future.



Okay, but I mean, Isaiah Thomas is going to get MVP votes this year. Jokic hasn't even gotten into an all-star game. I like Harris, but he's a role-player. A good one though. A guy like Avery Bradley >>> Harris.

Jokic also is a bad rim-protector and defender and that hamstrings your team a lot when you have to play him at C. I question whether you can go far in the NBA with a C who plays so poorly on D. I'd rather have Brown + 3rd 2017 + Lal or Sac pick than Jokic, just because I think his upside is capped. He won't be a superstar.

You mention Denver's trade chips, but Boston has far more. Picks, all-star players, role-players.

Denver is also in trouble because they don't have the potential talent to compete for the top spots, and they aren't bad enough to get a good draft pick. They're picking 13th in the lotto this year. Meanwhile, Brooklyn tanks for the Celtics.


And I meant that if Boston decides to go for a rebuild 1 day, there are teams (even if they have a load of picks) in better situation.

Jokic has a DRPM better than LeBron and Kawhi. And in Wins% he was 10th in the NBA, in RPM 6th (and he had a real slow start to the season). Stats don't tell everything, but they tell something, no?

That guy seems a franchise player and will be an Allstar next season.

Boston really doesn't have that kind of guy to built a possible contender around.

They have a lot of good players, great mentality, very good coach, a lot of assets, ... and they play in a weak division.


Have you watched a lot of Jokic? He is NOT a good defender.



He's an All-Star for sure. Superstar? Up there with LeBron/Durant/Curry/Kawhi/Westbrook? Nope.

But I guess we'll see!
cammac wrote:Big Ben has a cult following but he was slightly better than Roy Hibbert.
:lol:
Wilfried
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,525
And1: 227
Joined: May 24, 2007

Re: What is Ainge smoking? 

Post#74 » by Wilfried » Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:22 am

Ponchos wrote:
Wilfried wrote:
Ponchos wrote:
Jokic has a DRPM better than LeBron and Kawhi. And in Wins% he was 10th in the NBA, in RPM 6th (and he had a real slow start to the season). Stats don't tell everything, but they tell something, no?

That guy seems a franchise player and will be an Allstar next season.

Boston really doesn't have that kind of guy to built a possible contender around.

They have a lot of good players, great mentality, very good coach, a lot of assets, ... and they play in a weak division.


Have you watched a lot of Jokic? He is NOT a good defender.



He's an All-Star for sure. Superstar? Up there with LeBron/Durant/Curry/Kawhi/Westbrook? Nope.

But I guess we'll see!


We'll see indeed.

Video clips and stats are not the same. I can make a video that makes Okafor a better version of Gobert, of Gobert a lesser version of Okafor

https://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM

Check for yourself.

You can be a superstar if your offense is that elite too btw. Look at Stephen Curry, who is a mediocre defender at best. Or Harden.
If you're surrounded by good defenders and a good defensive scheme, you look like a good defender too.
Ponchos
Analyst
Posts: 3,281
And1: 2,452
Joined: Jul 04, 2010

Re: What is Ainge smoking? 

Post#75 » by Ponchos » Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:28 am

Wilfried wrote:
Ponchos wrote:
Wilfried wrote:
Have you watched a lot of Jokic? He is NOT a good defender.



He's an All-Star for sure. Superstar? Up there with LeBron/Durant/Curry/Kawhi/Westbrook? Nope.

But I guess we'll see!


We'll see indeed.

Video clips and stats are not the same. I can make a video that makes Okafor a better version of Gobert, of Gobert a lesser version of Okafor

https://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM

Check for yourself.

You can be a superstar if your offense is that elite too btw. Look at Stephen Curry, who is a mediocre defender at best. Or Harden.
If you're surrounded by good defenders and a good defensive scheme, you look like a good defender too.


So do you think that Bebe Noguiera, Aron Baynes and David West are better defenders than Kawhi and Jokic?

Also, Steph Curry isn't a C. He isn't the anchor of the Defense. You can't have a Center who plays crap D and still be a superstar. That's why a guy like Gobert will always be better than Jokic if you want to win.
cammac wrote:Big Ben has a cult following but he was slightly better than Roy Hibbert.
:lol:
Krazykiwi
Sophomore
Posts: 102
And1: 60
Joined: Nov 10, 2010

Re: What is Ainge smoking? 

Post#76 » by Krazykiwi » Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:29 am

You just won 53 games, made the eastern conference finals, your team always has a lot of young players AND boat loads of high picks coming in the next few years. And now you have the no1 pick in a draft, you don't go out and turn the no1 into more spare parts. Take the guy who has the highest chance of becoming a star, which in this case, its fultz. or trade the pick for a star. It's not like you are gutting the future of the team by trading away pick. You already and still have boat load of picks. Let's face it, the chance of someone like Jackson becoming a star is a lot Lower than someone like fultz.
Roy The Natural
Veteran
Posts: 2,753
And1: 1,090
Joined: Nov 07, 2014

Re: What is Ainge smoking? 

Post#77 » by Roy The Natural » Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:32 am

azcatz11 wrote:
Fico92 wrote:
azcatz11 wrote:
Fultz is generational.

(azcatz11)


Generational talent = a Durant, LeBron, Duncan, Kobe, etc...someone who might end up top 20 all time.

You put Fultz in that class?


Generational = top 100 player. Yes, I do put him in that class sir.


Just wondering if you know what a generation is? Has the NBA been around for about 1000 years or something?
robbie84
Starter
Posts: 2,478
And1: 1,180
Joined: Dec 24, 2011
Location: Harvard, MA.
     

Re: What is Ainge smoking? 

Post#78 » by robbie84 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:43 am

lol @ all those judging the situation 2 days after the trade was made.
Let's see what kind of roster Ainge puts out on opening night.
Let's actually see what happens with these picks (and Fultz) before we **** on him 24 hours later.
If he can add one of PG13/Butler and one of Hayward/Griffin and keep a few of those golden Brooklyn/LA/PHI picks AND keep Jaylen Brown, he's going to have the last laugh.

It's pretty unlikely that this trade for the #3 is the end game here. Ainge has always said he'd take proven talent over draftees unless it's a generational Durant/Duncan/Lebron talent.
He didn't see that in Fultz so he's probably going to try and get 2 guys who the 76ers hope Fultz will be as good as one day.

Patience people. Of course some morons will just crap on the Celtics and Ainge no matter what moves he makes. If you're one of those people, go back to your cave and stay miserable.
Dude knows what he's doing.
Wilfried
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,525
And1: 227
Joined: May 24, 2007

Re: What is Ainge smoking? 

Post#79 » by Wilfried » Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:43 am

Ponchos wrote:
So do you think that Bebe Noguiera, Aron Baynes and David West are better defenders than Kawhi and Jokic?

Also, Steph Curry isn't a C. He isn't the anchor of the Defense. You can't have a Center who plays crap D and still be a superstar. That's why a guy like Gobert will always be better than Jokic if you want to win.


Pachulia is the anchor of the Warriors D than?

No I don't think Noguiera, Baynes and West are better defenders than Kawhi.
You cannot compare players who only play a couple of minutes with a very clear defensive role to players who play both end of the floor for 35+ minutes.

But let's leave it here. To me, Jokic is a franchise talent, with which I mean you can built a contender around. You probably will need to add good defensive players around him. But I don't see him as an incredible liability on D (like Okafor), so it would be impossible with him in the middle to win something.

First because the stats tell different and second because being incredibly good at offense is very valuable too.
Ponchos
Analyst
Posts: 3,281
And1: 2,452
Joined: Jul 04, 2010

Re: What is Ainge smoking? 

Post#80 » by Ponchos » Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:46 am

Wilfried wrote:
Ponchos wrote:
So do you think that Bebe Noguiera, Aron Baynes and David West are better defenders than Kawhi and Jokic?

Also, Steph Curry isn't a C. He isn't the anchor of the Defense. You can't have a Center who plays crap D and still be a superstar. That's why a guy like Gobert will always be better than Jokic if you want to win.


Pachulia is the anchor of the Warriors D than?

No I don't think Noguiera, Baynes and West are better defenders than Kawhi.
You cannot compare players who only play a couple of minutes with a very clear defensive role to players who play both end of the floor for 35+ minutes.

But let's leave it here. To me, Jokic is a franchise talent, with which I mean you can built a contender around. You probably will need to add good defensive players around him. But I don't see him as an incredible liability on D (like Okafor), so it would be impossible with him in the middle to win something.

First because the stats tell different and second because being incredibly good at offense is very valuable too.


Draymond is. But Zaza played very decent D when called upon.

I do hope that Jokic turns out to be the type of player you envision though, that would be fun to see.
cammac wrote:Big Ben has a cult following but he was slightly better than Roy Hibbert.
:lol:

Return to The General Board