Pat Riley stole me idea to fix lottery tanking!

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Re: Pat Riley stole me idea to fix lottery tanking! 

Post#61 » by rcc8884 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:35 pm

Do something like the college conference tournaments where the worst teams get a bye so they are not stuck picking 7th and 8th every year.
(1 is the team with the 30th best record with 9 being the team with the 22nd best record)

Game 1: 9 vs. 4
Game 2: 8 vs. 5
Game 3: 7 vs. 6

Game 4: (Winner of Game 1) vs. (Winner of Game 2)
Game 5: (Winner of Game 3) vs. 3

Game 6: (Winner of Game 4) vs. 1
Game 7: (Winner of Game 5) vs. 2

Game 8 (Championship): (Winner of Game 6) vs. (Winner of Game 7), winner gets the 1st pick while the loser gets the 2nd pick

Game 1L: (Loser of Game 1) vs. (Loser of Game 2), winner gets the 8th pick while the loser gets the 9th pick
Game 2L: Loser of game 3 (7 vs. 6) automatically gets the 7th pick

Game 3L: (Loser of Game 4) vs. (Loser of Game 5), winner gets the 5th pick while the loser gets the 6th pick

Game 4L: (Loser of Game 6) vs. (Loser of Game 7), winner gets the 3rd pick while the loser gets the 4th pick
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Re: Pat Riley stole me idea to fix lottery tanking! 

Post#62 » by babyjax13 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:35 pm

Marmoset wrote:
draftnightsuit wrote:So what happens if bad teams have already traded their pick? Are the Brooklyn Nets gonna go play this tournament on behalf of the Celtics? Wouldn't the Nets just lose on purpose out of spite?


An excellent question. How about this one - what happens if a team owns multiple lottery picks? Using the proposed format, let's say the first match has team #3 vs. team #6, but team #3 traded their pick to team #6. Would team #6 play against themselves?

Besides the logical issues such as these which I'm sure could be dealt with, the whole system is completely dysfunctional for reasons already identified, with one of the biggest reasons being that the players who would actually play have very little reason to care. None of these proposals ever seem to address this extremely important point.


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Re: Pat Riley stole me idea to fix lottery tanking! 

Post#63 » by Domejandro » Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:46 pm

Am I the only person that believes the system, while imperfect, is fine enough?
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Re: Pat Riley stole me idea to fix lottery tanking! 

Post#64 » by MC3 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:08 pm

why fix something that isn't broken

go solve and fix world peace if you have a spare time. leave something alone which doesnt need fixing in the first place.
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Re: Pat Riley stole me idea to fix lottery tanking! 

Post#65 » by youngthegiant » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:11 am

Has some pros, definitely improves the league quality, teams wouldn't have the incentive of building the worst team possible, puts a lot of pressure on owners/gms to construct a formidable roster.....but could create issues with middling teams purposely missing playoffs for a chance to land the #1 pick. Overall if the purpose is to build a league with quality all around, I think the pros greatly outweigh the cons. I would change one thing, both 8 seeds from the east/west are included making it an even 16 team tournament. These two teams are not allowed to acquire a top 3 pick but may move as high as 4th. The 8 worst teams are granted home court advantages in the 1st round. I think the tournament would be a million times more exciting than watching envelopes being drawn but it's a pipe dream. Too many issues, one being the pick swaps. Brooklyn had the #1 pick and that was of course swapped with Boston. Boston would be way too good for this tournament and Brooklyn would have no incentive to win, not sure how that would be handled with this format.
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Re: Pat Riley stole me idea to fix lottery tanking! 

Post#66 » by norcocredo » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:17 am

Meh. I really don't think there is a better way. Anything implemented, teams will find a way around.
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Re: Pat Riley stole me idea to fix lottery tanking! 

Post#67 » by Leprechaun18 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:26 am

How does Riley's plan discourage tanking? I think it encourages it. Good teams would purposely tank, thinking they cannot win the Champ., but that they could tank to get into lottery tournement. By the way Brooklyn was not tanking. Tanking is not the issue peeps make it out to be,
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Re: Pat Riley stole me idea to fix lottery tanking! 

Post#68 » by InWestWeTrust » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:30 am

Easy fix to the "but the bad teams will stay bad" argument.

Same idea but instead have it be a 3 on 3 style tournament where each team picks 3 people front their front office to participate.
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Re: Pat Riley stole me idea to fix lottery tanking! 

Post#69 » by stilldropin20 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:48 am

righterwriter wrote:Pat Riley just came out with an idea yesterday for a post-season tournament to establish the lottery order which looks pretty similar to something I suggested a few months back. See below:

Riley’s proposal: A four-day postseason tournament in which 14 lottery teams participate to determine the draft order. The deeper a team goes the higher the pick and the team that wins the tournament gets the first pick.

He is calling it a “lottery playoff.”

Follow along.

“The season ends on Tuesday, the playoffs start on Sunday, and from Wednesday to Saturday, the lottery teams play a tournament for the pick,” he said. “Now, that’ll stop all that bull—- of guys tanking and all that stuff.

“The 14th team and the first team, there’s equality here now. So no more tanking in the end. I think you’d draw a tremendous amount of fans and great interest. … So play for it, let’s have a little playoff for the top pick in the draft, instead of working on ping-pong balls and all that stuff.”


http://heatzone.blog.palmbeachpost.com/2017/07/15/heat-president-pat-rileys-unique-solution-to-stop-teams-from-tanking/


My idea posted on RealGM back in March (which is a bit better, imo):

They should have a tournament between when the season ends and the playoffs start to determine draft order.

Take the bottom 8 teams and have them do a tourney where the winner gets the top pick, runner up gets #2, and so on until the worst team in the tourney gets pick #8. Teams #9-14 just pick wherever they end up according to record.

Day 1
Seed #1 (team with best record) plays seed #8 (team with worst record)
2 vs 7
3 vs 6
4 vs 5

Day 3 (one day off for travel/rest)
Winners square off
Losers Square off

Day 5 (one day off for travel/rest)
Final Game to set top pick
Final Losers games to establish picks 3-8

---

This model could work as it helps prevent outright tanking. Being the absolute weakest team in the regular season would give them the worst seed and set them up to get as low as the #8 pick in the draft. If the weak teams compete to the end of the season, perhaps even trading for players at the deadline to strengthen their roster for the tournament, then it's a win for fans who don't like to see their teams not competing.

The downside is that the worst team in the league could end up not getting a clear difference maker since they are picking #8, but it does put pressure on them to improve so that they aren't stuck in the same position next year. Maybe they sign a couple players that look like they could fit with their plan and bring more wins so they can set themselves up for a better pick in next year's tourney.

Another downside is perhaps teams around that #8 seed could tank the rest of the season to try to get in the tourney and get the #1 seed, but I believe most years that teams in this range believe they can get into the actual playoffs until at least the last few weeks of the season, so they'd most likely still want to compete up until the end.

The big upside is there would be much less chance to have godawful teams tanking year after year as a strategy. They have motivation to make real improvements each offseason or else get the #8 pick each year.

It also gives a little extra fun for fans watching the drama of a season ending tournament, which gives game exposure to teams and players that most fans might not care about. The televised games mean more money for teams and players, so it's something the NBA and players union should support.


http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1540168&hilit=tournament&start=100

I'm not saying that Riley took the idea, as I'm probably not the first person to consider this idea of a tournament to establish lottery order, but I've also never heard anyone suggest it before either.

What do you think-- just a coincidence or is there some chance that NBA guys come on Real GM and cherry pick ideas?

Anyway, feel free to discuss the idea of a draft tournament as well, as I think it's kind of cool.


ive been bringing this concept up every year for 15 years on realgm. no B.S.

through the years ive added.

why give the #1 pick to the worst team!!??? why??? why reward tanking?? makes no sense at all.

either do a playoff system or make the regular season the playoffs and give the best #9 seed the #1 pick. this way teams that are close(likely with some vets) get the best players and get a "shot in the arm" to challenge the top seeds quicker. teams at the bottom will have to first learn how not to be bad. and all they will need is some vets to do just that.

this way the regular season will be more fun. every game counts.
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Re: Pat Riley stole me idea to fix lottery tanking! 

Post#70 » by zronv7 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:54 am

A simple fix is to give every lottery team that doesn't make the playoffs the same odds of winning the lottery and give the teams that do make the playoffs a salary bonus in the following offseason to improve their roster.
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Re: Pat Riley stole me idea to fix lottery tanking! 

Post#71 » by ChiCitySPORTS#1 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:56 am

heatwillbeback wrote:The issue with that is the teams closer to the playoffs will win.

There is a point to the worse teams having a the best chance for the highest pick- they need it!

Tanking sucks, but I would rather have it than the worse teams having less of an opportunity to improve.


Yeah - this is common sense. The teams that are really really bad are going to end up with the worst pick in the lottery...makes no sense IMO, sorry OP.
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Re: Pat Riley stole me idea to fix lottery tanking! 

Post#72 » by Rotten Apple » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:09 am

This is a great idea, will make teams build the best team possible every season with hopes of either making the playoffs or winning the lottery playoff.
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Re: Pat Riley stole me idea to fix lottery tanking! 

Post#73 » by righterwriter » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:21 am

draftnightsuit wrote:So what happens if bad teams have already traded their pick? Are the Brooklyn Nets gonna go play this tournament on behalf of the Celtics? Wouldn't the Nets just lose on purpose out of spite?


Make it so teams can only trade lottery protected picks. If they want to deal a player they pick immediately at the draft, that's okay, but do not let them trade future lotto picks as it is generally just a stupid thing to do that can set their development back years.
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Re: Pat Riley stole me idea to fix lottery tanking! 

Post#74 » by millslapper » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:24 am

It sounds nice and competetive, but imagine the following.

in this years west a team is two games away from the playoff (the 8th seed) but if they lose both they are a lock for lottery.
what do they choose?
a possible 1st round sweep vs GSW or the chance for the Nr1 Pick?

more than obvious and because of that goodbye to this idea.
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Re: Pat Riley stole me idea to fix lottery tanking! 

Post#75 » by righterwriter » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:31 am

millslapper wrote:It sounds nice and competetive, but imagine the following.

in this years west a team is two games away from the playoff (the 8th seed) but if they lose both they are a lock for lottery.
what do they choose?
a possible 1st round sweep vs GSW or the chance for the Nr1 Pick?

more than obvious and because of that goodbye to this idea.


My idea was to have only the bottom-8 teams in the league do the playoff. Picks 9-14 would be set according to record. That would prevent most teams from choosing to miss the playoffs in order to get into the tournament. And if some team tried to get around the system by resting all of their best players for the last 20 games of the year and then suddenly having them all healthy for this five day tournament the commissioner could make a judgment call and not allow them in the tourney.
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Re: Pat Riley stole me idea to fix lottery tanking! 

Post#76 » by Volcano » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:15 am

InWestWeTrust wrote:Easy fix to the "but the bad teams will stay bad" argument.

Same idea but instead have it be a 3 on 3 style tournament where each team picks 3 people front their front office to participate.


Then star-based teams would prosper here and it still doesn't motivate players to play for a lost season or even to try in the tourney. The latter can be fixed by giving monetary awards for advancing in each round, but it's still flawed.

A better idea is to use a weighted ranking system:

If you're a lottery team, the higher your seed is, the higher you go in the draft.
If you're a lottery team, your draft ranking is also boosted by having a lower ranked seed in the last 2-3 years.

A team that gets a high pick (1-4) would look like:
Year 1: 30th seed, Year 2: 30th seed, Year 3 (current year): 18th seed

Indicating that the team was struggling, but is beginning to put it together. You create an environment where a young star has a chance to make the playoffs in the next few years and the team deserves to be rewarded for sucking so long and trying to put together a winner.

A team drafting at a mid-high pick (5-10) would look like:
A: yr 1: 30th, yr 2: 30th, yr 3: 30th
B: yr 1: 20th, yr 2: 17th, yr 3: 18th

It discourages tanking on the year of the draft. In case A, a perennial bad team still gets a decent pick, but their pick is further away from the top the more they suck that year. At the same time, a treadmill team that can't get over the hump has the chance to add a decent pick. They don't need to resort to tanking.

A team that gets a low lottery pick:
yr 1: 1st seed, yr 2: 2nd seed, yr 3: 29th seed

Going from a top team to a bottom team may mean their star player was injured or walked or retired. In any case, they don't immediately deserve another high lotto pick in the next season when they were already gifted a chance.
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Re: Pat Riley stole me idea to fix lottery tanking! 

Post#77 » by Riko » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:44 am

Domejandro wrote:Am I the only person that believes the system, while imperfect, is fine enough?


Me too. I think that NBA should reward slightly more the Wins during the regular season but the current system is decent: allows bad teams to pick good rookies and eventually become contender.
Obviously if you have a poor managment you will never raise just like Sacramento, Orlando, Minnesota*, NYK, Detroit ecc..
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Re: Pat Riley stole me idea to fix lottery tanking! 

Post#78 » by Dominater » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:57 am

King Close wrote:
Buckeye-NBAFan wrote:
kbitboc wrote:
Why would they intentionally tank when they are losing the pick anyways?


Why indeed... Maybe they just sucked?



There is no maybe, they definitely sucked. I'm not entirely sure I understand your post looking at your 2nd reply, but they started winning games the 2nd half of the season because most teams knew who was making the playoffs, and the ones who weren't started to tank to get a better pick, more players getting rest etc.

I can tell you they didn't purposefully tank to ensure a top 4 pick, why would they do that? They didn't own that pick coming into the season - i'm either super tired (i am) and not understanding you, or you're mis-informed.

I'm still scratching my head as to why they tanked that last game resting their key guys when the game had major playoff implications
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Re: Pat Riley stole me idea to fix lottery tanking! 

Post#79 » by millslapper » Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:25 am

righterwriter wrote:
millslapper wrote:It sounds nice and competetive, but imagine the following.

in this years west a team is two games away from the playoff (the 8th seed) but if they lose both they are a lock for lottery.
what do they choose?
a possible 1st round sweep vs GSW or the chance for the Nr1 Pick?

more than obvious and because of that goodbye to this idea.


My idea was to have only the bottom-8 teams in the league do the playoff. Picks 9-14 would be set according to record. That would prevent most teams from choosing to miss the playoffs in order to get into the tournament. And if some team tried to get around the system by resting all of their best players for the last 20 games of the year and then suddenly having them all healthy for this five day tournament the commissioner could make a judgment call and not allow them in the tourney.


ok, i did not read correctly. it is better, but for example in this year the Wolves probably would have won the Nr1 Pick, which is not exactly that what the league wants.

and what to do with traded picks? should the celtics play for the nets? this is unfair.
but the nets have no incentive to play, obviously. with a tournament style collecting future picks becomes irrelevant, or?
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Re: Pat Riley stole me idea to fix lottery tanking! 

Post#80 » by knicksNOTslick » Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:57 am

How about this idea. A little bit of both.

Have the lottery odds be similar to how it is now, except the lottery system doesn't decide the lottery order. It decides who plays in the tournament for #1.

The first lottery will be on who gets in top four of the draft. Then, those four teams who win 1-4 will play a tournament style one-game elimination, to decide draft order.

The second lottery will be on determining the next eight. There will be a tournament for the fifth pick and so on to determine the next draft order.

The two teams not chosen are out of luck. Coin flip for who picks 13th and 14th.

This way, the draft order will be a combination of luck and skill.

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