How good is Jokic? [Poll added]

[Screwston]

A 22 year old is not going to improve? I dont think he is bad at timing and positioning but maybe i'm wrong. Anyway if anyone is going to improve on timing and positioning its Jokic. If you dont belive that then that's your problem.

Not on the defensive end, obviously he's gonna improve as a player but on defense not much.

As for your post above, i tend to agree somewhat, but you still need paint protection no matter what. Look at Orlando Dwight n what he was able to do defensively, he held everything from a free throw line to the basket, its the most important position on defense, because they can do so much on that end. Thats why Hasheem Thabeet was a 2nd pick, bc he played good D in college

Dont know why you think so. Marc Gasol had worse DBPM than Jokic in his first two years and then became DPOY. Im not saying that Jokic will be as Marc, it is the best case, im saying that unathletic bigs can improve on defense significantly. Now Marc is bigger than Jokic but then again Joikic doesnt need to be DPOY, just average.

With Marc you could tell that he had a good feel for defense, of course most of them will get in foul trouble, misposition n whatnot early on in their careers, but the potential was there. With Jokic I highly doubt it, but we shall see, time will tell.

[The Rebel]

For those that do not understand how good Jokic is, maybe this article will help you figure it out since you will not listen to posters.

The makeup of Denver's rotation—half of which was 22 years old or younger—suggested the Nuggets were in line for a season of modest development. Instead, they posted the fifth-best offense in the league while hitting the 40-win mark ahead of schedule.

Jokic, frankly, is that good. Once the Nuggets put the ball in his hands, seemingly flawed lineups recontextualized around him. No matter how its overmatched point guards were playing on a given night, Denver could trust in the vision of its center; Jokic plays an artful game, often bending his passes through narrowing windows and into the hands of his teammates.

Many of the best passing bigs in the league are valuable merely for the way they redirect possessions and connect dots. Jokic genuinely creates opportunities that would not be there otherwise, giving him more function in common with Ricky Rubio than with Mason Plumlee. Even with last year’s roster and complications, the Nuggets posted what was, according to Basketball-Reference, the 35th-most efficient offensive season in NBA history.

https://www.si.com/nba/2017/08/15/nuggets-paul-millsap-nikola-jokic-gary-harris-clippers-hawks

[mcmurphy]

The Troll Force is great in this thread.

Excluding rookie season:

Brad Miller 3 TD in 830 Games
Vlade Divac 8 TD in 1052 Games
Chris Webber 20 TD in 755 Games

Jokic 6 TD in 73 Games

[CometGM]

It's fine to say Jokic had a great season. It's even fine to believe that Jokic will be an MVP candidate, or even delusionally say that he will have a better career than Towns. Go ahead, give him his due. This is a Jokic thread anyway and he is good, but please, PLEASE don't say he had a better season than Towns. Don't mix hope with reality. I've already proved it going stat by stat, advanced stat by advanced stat. Don't make me post it again. Please go back to the post.

[THE J0KER]

The Troll Force is great in this thread.

Excluding rookie season:

Brad Miller 3 TD in 830 Games
Vlade Divac 8 TD in 1052 Games
Chris Webber 20 TD in 755 Games

Jokic 6 TD in 73 Games

And which is best about those stats, all six this triple-doubles is done since February, in the second half of one single season!

[PhilBlackson]

KAT
Jokic
Porzingis

[slothrop8]

Jokic is the impactful player now and had the better season last year, but Towns should have more upside in the long run if he can improve his defence over where he is currently. Porzingis is way behind those two - not even really in the same conversation for me.

[CometGM]

Jokic is the impactful player now and had the better season last year, but Towns should have more upside in the long run if he can improve his defence over where he is currently. Porzingis is way behind those two - not even really in the same conversation for me.

It's like you didn't read one word in this thread. This notion that Jokic had the "better" and more "impactful" season has been passed around so much that people are actually believing it. Here let me post it for you again since you apparently didn't read it.



It's one thing some of you guys saying, "way better advanced stats", "impact", etc.., so let's really break it down. Let's see who really had the better season. Let's go stat by stat...

I'm not gonna waste my time even mentioning the traditional stats. Towns blows Jokic out of the water. No comparison. Almost enough to not make you need to look at advanced stats, but you know what, let's look at them:

Let's look at the player comparisons from basketball-reference.com



http://bkref.com/tiny/vILyb (basketball-reference.com player comparison)

In the Advanced Stats category:
I see Jokic ahead in PER, TS%, ORB%, TRB%, AST%, STL%, WS/48, OBPM, DBPM, BPM
I see Towns ahead in 3PAr, FTr, DRB%, BLK%, lower TOV%, USG%, OWS, DWS, WS

Now tell me where you see that Jokic is blowing Towns out of the water in most advanced stats?

THIS, along with Towns traditional stats which are way ahead of Jokic, shows clearly that Towns had the better season.

Go ahead and poll any actual GMs, basketball historians or statisticians and see who had the better season.

Jokic is definitely an impactful player and fun to watch, but he did not have a better season than Towns.
The season is a collection of the whole, NOT what could've been done per/36 or per/48.

[Sharkboy242]

Jokic is the impactful player now and had the better season last year, but Towns should have more upside in the long run if he can improve his defence over where he is currently. Porzingis is way behind those two - not even really in the same conversation for me.

It's like you didn't read one word in this thread. This notion that Jokic had the "better" and more "impactful" season has been passed around so much that people are actually believing it. Here let me post it for you again since you apparently didn't read it.



It's one thing some of you guys saying, "way better advanced stats", "impact", etc.., so let's really break it down. Let's see who really had the better season. Let's go stat by stat...

I'm not gonna waste my time even mentioning the traditional stats. Towns blows Jokic out of the water. No comparison. Almost enough to not make you need to look at advanced stats, but you know what, let's look at them:

Let's look at the player comparisons from basketball-reference.com



http://bkref.com/tiny/vILyb (basketball-reference.com player comparison)

In the Advanced Stats category:
I see Jokic ahead in PER, TS%, ORB%, TRB%, AST%, STL%, WS/48, OBPM, DBPM, BPM
I see Towns ahead in 3PAr, FTr, DRB%, BLK%, lower TOV%, USG%, OWS, DWS, WS

Now tell me where you see that Jokic is blowing Towns out of the water in most advanced stats?

THIS, along with Towns traditional stats which are way ahead of Jokic, shows clearly that Towns had the better season.

Go ahead and poll any actual GMs, basketball historians or statisticians and see who had the better season.

Jokic is definitely an impactful player and fun to watch, but he did not have a better season than Towns.
The season is a collection of the whole, NOT what could've been done per/36 or per/48.

Someone previously stated in response to this post that not all advanced stats are equal - to which you didn't have dick to say about. How is 3PAr% a good thing to be ahead in? Again you don't just look at advanced stats without any context and compare them head to head (its actually quite comical that you did that lol). Did you not hear what the neighborhood loon Rashoismydad has continuously been reminded us? They're all to be taken in context.

If KAT is so astronomically better, how is it that Jokic was the one who willed his team to 8 more wins? Before answering that though hear this: I guarantee you that exactly one year ago all of you Minnesota fans would have argued that the Wolves would end the season with a better record than the Nuggets, and I say that as a matter of fact because I can dig up the poll. Fast forward to now and you wolves fans, for the sake of trying to justify KAT over Jokic, will conduct some mental gymnastics to proclaim the nuggets were actually the top-down better team.

The narrative that Jokic willed the Nuggets to a much better record than KAT did for the wolves is fully backed by an honest reading of advanced metrics. If you disagree with that simple statement then please come ready to back it with a post in which you predicted the Nuggets would end up with a better record than the wolves for the 2016-2017 season. Ill wait for the mental acrobat comments saying that Gallinari is an elite offensive piece, and that it was Wilson Chanlder that threaded the needle for Denver lmao

[slothrop8]

Jokic is the impactful player now and had the better season last year, but Towns should have more upside in the long run if he can improve his defence over where he is currently. Porzingis is way behind those two - not even really in the same conversation for me.

It's like you didn't read one word in this thread. This notion that Jokic had the "better" and more "impactful" season has been passed around so much that people are actually believing it. Here let me post it for you again since you apparently didn't read it.



It's one thing some of you guys saying, "way better advanced stats", "impact", etc.., so let's really break it down. Let's see who really had the better season. Let's go stat by stat...

I'm not gonna waste my time even mentioning the traditional stats. Towns blows Jokic out of the water. No comparison. Almost enough to not make you need to look at advanced stats, but you know what, let's look at them:

Let's look at the player comparisons from basketball-reference.com



http://bkref.com/tiny/vILyb (basketball-reference.com player comparison)

In the Advanced Stats category:
I see Jokic ahead in PER, TS%, ORB%, TRB%, AST%, STL%, WS/48, OBPM, DBPM, BPM
I see Towns ahead in 3PAr, FTr, DRB%, BLK%, lower TOV%, USG%, OWS, DWS, WS

Now tell me where you see that Jokic is blowing Towns out of the water in most advanced stats?

THIS, along with Towns traditional stats which are way ahead of Jokic, shows clearly that Towns had the better season.

Go ahead and poll any actual GMs, basketball historians or statisticians and see who had the better season.

Jokic is definitely an impactful player and fun to watch, but he did not have a better season than Towns.
The season is a collection of the whole, NOT what could've been done per/36 or per/48.

Nowhere did I use the term blowing out of the water - so I'm not sure what that's about. Jokic has significantly better On/Off splits, was the more efficient offensive player, and has significantly better defensive metrics as seen in both Real +/- stats and the On/Off splits. Last year Towns' defensive performance was very poor, some of his defensive metrics downright deplorable - and that performance shows up in his impact stats. Last year Jokic impacted winning more than Towns did - he was last season the better overall player. I still like Towns' chances to surpass him in the long run as Towns is an awesome offensive talent and will surely not continue to be as bad defensively as he has been as he ages and adjusts to his defensive role in the NBA game.

[Sir Psycho Sexy]

You can't read advanced stats like that. In drb%, orb% and trb% they are basically the same, you can't count that for Jokić or Towns and 3PAr and USG% aren't really showing who is better.

From that I can read that Jokić is a significally better distributor and has higher impact on both offense and defense in less minutes. Stats also show me that KAT can play bigger minutes and that shooting much more doesn't hurt his % much at all.

[PhilBlackson]

Its still unbelievable that a player as talented as Jokic somehow slipped under everybody's noses.

[Sharkboy242]

Its a total mindf*** to some people that certain styles of play can be much more conducive to winning than others, even if individual stats don't reflect that.

Maximum individual output does no equate to whats better for the team, and people who worship the likes of Cousins and KAT will avoid this notion to no end. Kat has a good excuse for being young, but Cousins is a severely overrated piece given the number of his playoff appearances.

[Rashoismydad]

Its a total mindf*** to some people that certain styles of play can be much more conducive to winning than others, even if individual stats don't reflect that.

Maximum individual output does no equate to whats better for the team, and people who worship the likes of Cousins and KAT will avoid this notion to no end. Kat has a good excuse for being young, but Cousins is a severely overrated piece given the number of his playoff appearances.

So if the wolves win more games this season does that means Towns style of play is more conducive to winning?

[Nuggets_Talk]

Jokic is the impactful player now and had the better season last year, but Towns should have more upside in the long run if he can improve his defence over where he is currently. Porzingis is way behind those two - not even really in the same conversation for me.

It's like you didn't read one word in this thread. This notion that Jokic had the "better" and more "impactful" season has been passed around so much that people are actually believing it. Here let me post it for you again since you apparently didn't read it.



It's one thing some of you guys saying, "way better advanced stats", "impact", etc.., so let's really break it down. Let's see who really had the better season. Let's go stat by stat...

I'm not gonna waste my time even mentioning the traditional stats. Towns blows Jokic out of the water. No comparison. Almost enough to not make you need to look at advanced stats, but you know what, let's look at them:

Let's look at the player comparisons from basketball-reference.com



http://bkref.com/tiny/vILyb (basketball-reference.com player comparison)

In the Advanced Stats category:
I see Jokic ahead in PER, TS%, ORB%, TRB%, AST%, STL%, WS/48, OBPM, DBPM, BPM
I see Towns ahead in 3PAr, FTr, DRB%, BLK%, lower TOV%, USG%, OWS, DWS, WS

Now tell me where you see that Jokic is blowing Towns out of the water in most advanced stats?

THIS, along with Towns traditional stats which are way ahead of Jokic, shows clearly that Towns had the better season.

Go ahead and poll any actual GMs, basketball historians or statisticians and see who had the better season.

Jokic is definitely an impactful player and fun to watch, but he did not have a better season than Towns.
The season is a collection of the whole, NOT what could've been done per/36 or per/48.

Someone previously stated in response to this post that not all advanced stats are equal - to which you didn't have dick to say about. How is 3PAr% a good thing to be ahead in? Again you don't just look at advanced stats without any context and compare them head to head (its actually quite comical that you did that lol). Did you not hear what the neighborhood loon Rashoismydad has continuously been reminded us? They're all to be taken in context.

If KAT is so astronomically better, how is it that Jokic was the one who willed his team to 8 more wins? Before answering that though hear this: I guarantee you that exactly one year ago all of you Minnesota fans would have argued that the Wolves would end the season with a better record than the Nuggets, and I say that as a matter of fact because I can dig up the poll. Fast forward to now and you wolves fans, for the sake of trying to justify KAT over Jokic, will conduct some mental gymnastics to proclaim the nuggets were actually the top-down better team.

The narrative that Jokic willed the Nuggets to a much better record than KAT did for the wolves is fully backed by an honest reading of advanced metrics. If you disagree with that simple statement then please come ready to back it with a post in which you predicted the Nuggets would end up with a better record than the wolves for the 2016-2017 season. Ill wait for the mental acrobat comments saying that Gallinari is an elite offensive piece, and that it was Wilson Chanlder that threaded the needle for Denver lmao

Not only did jokic lead a less talented team to more wins, the wolves were picked to be ahead of Denver by a good majority of realgm fans. The poll was very lop sided.

That's why I said when they are finally right please no "I told you so's!"

[karkinos]

towns now but i am rooting for jokic to achieve dirk-like achievements in his career.

[Wolfgang630]

Jokic is the impactful player now and had the better season last year, but Towns should have more upside in the long run if he can improve his defence over where he is currently. Porzingis is way behind those two - not even really in the same conversation for me.

Thanks. I only wished KP had a chance to play on teams like Minnesota and Denver where he didn't have a circus of distractions and problems for a whole season.

[CometGM]

Someone previously stated in response to this post that not all advanced stats are equal - to which you didn't have dick to say about. How is 3PAr% a good thing to be ahead in? Again you don't just look at advanced stats without any context and compare them head to head (its actually quite comical that you did that lol). Did you not hear what the neighborhood loon Rashoismydad has continuously been reminded us? They're all to be taken in context.

I did respond to that. It seems that you just don't understand what I said. If you can't see how someone can easily make a case for a player having more value shooting a higher percentage of 3's at a HIGHER rate in this era of basketball then I can't help you there. I also mentioned that Jokic had a higher rate of turnovers in less minutes. Either way, all I did was put all the advanced stats from basketball-reference.com to make a point that Jokic's advanced stats aren't much better than Towns, and this in combination with Towns' traditional stats clearly show Towns had the better season. That's what you should've taken out of my post. You also should've taken into account that he didn't respond to me after that, but of course you didn't, because it seems you're being blind to the Jokic fandom.

If KAT is so astronomically better, how is it that Jokic was the one who willed his team to 8 more wins? Before answering that though hear this: I guarantee you that exactly one year ago all of you Minnesota fans would have argued that the Wolves would end the season with a better record than the Nuggets, and I say that as a matter of fact because I can dig up the poll. Fast forward to now and you wolves fans, for the sake of trying to justify KAT over Jokic, will conduct some mental gymnastics to proclaim the nuggets were actually the top-down better team.

You're really grasping at straws now.
Who said KAT is so astronomically better?
Who said i'm a Minnesota fan?
Who cares what a poll of RealGM'ers saying that Minnesota would be better than the Nuggets?
All I said was Towns had the BETTER SEASON. This should be an obvious fact for everybody except unrealistic Jokic fanatics. Notice I didn't ALL Jokic fans, because I am a Jokic fanatic, but i'm realistic.

The narrative that Jokic willed the Nuggets to a much better record than KAT did for the wolves is fully backed by an honest reading of advanced metrics. If you disagree with that simple statement then please come ready to back it with a post in which you predicted the Nuggets would end up with a better record than the wolves for the 2016-2017 season. Ill wait for the mental acrobat comments saying that Gallinari is an elite offensive piece, and that it was Wilson Chanlder that threaded the needle for Denver lmao

I'm not sure what the heck you just posted here....?? I already posted the advanced metrics from basketball-reference.com to prove that Jokic's advanced stats were not that much better than Towns. What is your counter to that?

[CometGM]

Jokic is the impactful player now and had the better season last year, but Towns should have more upside in the long run if he can improve his defence over where he is currently. Porzingis is way behind those two - not even really in the same conversation for me.

It's like you didn't read one word in this thread. This notion that Jokic had the "better" and more "impactful" season has been passed around so much that people are actually believing it. Here let me post it for you again since you apparently didn't read it.



It's one thing some of you guys saying, "way better advanced stats", "impact", etc.., so let's really break it down. Let's see who really had the better season. Let's go stat by stat...

I'm not gonna waste my time even mentioning the traditional stats. Towns blows Jokic out of the water. No comparison. Almost enough to not make you need to look at advanced stats, but you know what, let's look at them:

Let's look at the player comparisons from basketball-reference.com



http://bkref.com/tiny/vILyb (basketball-reference.com player comparison)

In the Advanced Stats category:
I see Jokic ahead in PER, TS%, ORB%, TRB%, AST%, STL%, WS/48, OBPM, DBPM, BPM
I see Towns ahead in 3PAr, FTr, DRB%, BLK%, lower TOV%, USG%, OWS, DWS, WS

Now tell me where you see that Jokic is blowing Towns out of the water in most advanced stats?

THIS, along with Towns traditional stats which are way ahead of Jokic, shows clearly that Towns had the better season.

Go ahead and poll any actual GMs, basketball historians or statisticians and see who had the better season.

Jokic is definitely an impactful player and fun to watch, but he did not have a better season than Towns.
The season is a collection of the whole, NOT what could've been done per/36 or per/48.

Nowhere did I use the term blowing out of the water - so I'm not sure what that's about. Jokic has significantly better On/Off splits, was the more efficient offensive player, and has significantly better defensive metrics as seen in both Real +/- stats and the On/Off splits. Last year Towns' defensive performance was very poor, some of his defensive metrics downright deplorable - and that performance shows up in his impact stats. Last year Jokic impacted winning more than Towns did - he was last season the better overall player. I still like Towns' chances to surpass him in the long run as Towns is an awesome offensive talent and will surely not continue to be as bad defensively as he has been as he ages and adjusts to his defensive role in the NBA game.

I don't know what you said and never said you said that. I'm just trying to dispel the notion that Jokic's "advanced stats" were much better Towns to proclaim he had the better season.

AGAIN, handpicking stats. LETS GO THROUGH ALL THE STATS.
Towns had more Offensive Win Shares, Defensive Win Shares, Lower Turnover Rate% while have a higher Usage Rate.
AGAIN, keep handpicking stats. I'm not even going to mention the traditional stats because that would just be ridiculous.

Now let's go take a tour a stats.nba.com. From there, let's click the "Advanced" link at the top.
Oh, look here, what is that first column? Player Impact Estimate? What the heck is that?
Don't know, but I guess it's just another advanced stat conveniently missed by unrealistic Jokic fans.

Sure, the stats you mention mean things, and sure you can use them in favor of Jokic. But you cannot just handpick those and religiously follow those, while ignoring the others and then make a claim that he had a better season than Towns. Especially considering that we all know advanced stats are not all accurate, knowing that team factors into a lot of it.

[Sharkboy242]

Its a total mindf*** to some people that certain styles of play can be much more conducive to winning than others, even if individual stats don't reflect that.

Maximum individual output does no equate to whats better for the team, and people who worship the likes of Cousins and KAT will avoid this notion to no end. Kat has a good excuse for being young, but Cousins is a severely overrated piece given the number of his playoff appearances.

So if the wolves win more games this season does that means Towns style of play is more conducive to winning?

Considering the amount of talent the wolves have acquired, one would expect the wolves to finish higher than the Nuggets this season, and it will be because of the addition of Butler who make the wolves have two all stars. So to answer your question, NO. Last summer on the other hand, critics and RealGMers were in a consensus agreement that the Wolves > Nuggets. And this was in a season where KAT and Jokic were clearly the best players on their teams. That will different with Butler and Wiggins getting better now.

I'll find you the thread in which majority of the people thought the Wolves would end the 2016-2017 season with a better record than the Nuggets, and those same people (cough*you*cough) are now going to argue that it is Jokic who has more talent around him? LMAO. Spare me your garbage.

And before you try and say something about team injuries, bear in mind that both MIN and DEN were close in that regard:

NBA top 5, wins lost due to injured players (Lost-ws metric)

1 UTA (9.4 wins lost)
2 DEN (9.1)
3 TOR (8.3)
4 MIN (7.4)
5 MEM (7.4)