Has Lebron 'Definitely' Surpassed Bird & Magic?

[jaypo]

No one is going to consider a player who went 3-8 in the finals and lost 4 finals mvps to inferior forwards as being in the conversation with Jordan in 10 years.

Okay. Then how about a player that has 3 FMVP's (more than Kobe, Magic, KAJ, Wilt). What about a player that averaged a 30 pt triple double in a finals series. What about a player that outplayed the FMVP but was on the losing team (and should have won his 4th).

Because that's how I view his finals body of work.

[C_Alejandro]

Probably the most ability ever, incredibly gifted.
Also the biggest drama queen.
Winner? Not even remotely close to Jordan, Kobe, Magic. They were all best when it mattered most.

I'm sure when you have a player like Kareem shouldering the scoring load, it would make it easier to score "when it matters most"

There is not a single facet of basketball that Magic is obviously better at than LeBron. Even passing is a toss, as Magic benefited off playing in the illegal defence era, where players had to hard-double players, opening up passing lanes because a smart PG would be able to see the double-teams coming from a mile away. Nowadays, passers like LeBron and CP3 have to deal with players shading off their man, doubling without the ball, flooding the strong-side, and perimeter traps...making passing to set up teammates significantly more difficult.

Don't believe me? Watch footage of the games, and please try telling me with a straight face that Magic Johnson was a better playmaker than the likes of CP3 and Steve Nash. Forget your one-sided highlights. Watch the full games.

[loserX]

I really don't understand this "failing when it matters most" argument that never seems to go away. Here's how I'd rank playoff success:

A) Winning 4 playoff rounds (title)
B) Winning 3 playoff rounds (losing in Finals)
C) Winning 0, 1 or 2 playoff rounds (not making it to finals)

I don't get any argument that C is better than B. How does failing *before* it "matters most" make it better? If you're going to compare playoff successes, you need to count A, B AND C, in that order.

That weird ranking of "B worse than C" makes zero sense to me. I can't imagine any professional basketball player agreeing with it either.

[HurricaneKid]

Probably the most ability ever, incredibly gifted.
Also the biggest drama queen.
Winner? Not even remotely close to Jordan, Kobe, Magic. They were all best when it mattered most.

Ever heard of "Tragic Johnson"? When in '84 he was (arguably) personally was responsible for 3 Boston wins by way of late game chokes? They lost in 7 with 3 CHOKES.

That was FAR worse than anything LeBron did. Yes, even 2011...

[jaypo]

Probably the most ability ever, incredibly gifted.
Also the biggest drama queen.
Winner? Not even remotely close to Jordan, Kobe, Magic. They were all best when it mattered most.

Ever heard of "Tragic Johnson"? When in '84 he was (arguably) personally was responsible for 3 Boston wins by way of late game chokes? They lost in 7 with 3 CHOKES.

That was FAR worse than anything LeBron did. Yes, even 2011...

Man, in 11, Lebron played the Mavs. better than Kobe did earlier in the same playoffs. The Mavs were a good team! Their defense was very underrated. I know Lebron didn't perform how we expect him to, but he still put up 18, 7, and 7 on 48% from the field. That was also his 1st year with the team, and the pecking order still hadn't straightened itself out yet. It was still Dwade's team, but needed to be Lebron's. The next year, they figured it out.

[C_Alejandro]

Probably the most ability ever, incredibly gifted.
Also the biggest drama queen.
Winner? Not even remotely close to Jordan, Kobe, Magic. They were all best when it mattered most.

Ever heard of "Tragic Johnson"? When in '84 he was (arguably) personally was responsible for 3 Boston wins by way of late game chokes? They lost in 7 with 3 CHOKES.

That was FAR worse than anything LeBron did. Yes, even 2011...

Shhh!! You don't want to disturb the "nostalgia crew" over here, who get all their information on 1980's basketball through ESPN "30 for 30" documentaries.

According to them, 1980's superstars were tough as nails and they never complained to the refs, never had bad games, were ultra-competitive, and "hated each other"....making the quality of basketball somehow better in that era.

[Bush4Ever]

I've been on "Team Lebron" in this thread, but I would question to some extent the idea that Magic was personally responsible for losing the 1984 Finals.

I know he choked on a handful of individual plays at the end of some games, missed FTs, etc...but didn't he play pretty damn well on the whole in the series, and even in the individual games in question?

I was being conceived during the 1984 Finals, so it was way before my time. I know the Tragic Johnson label got stuck to him for a bit and the narrative hung around for at least a year...but was it really fair?

[1993Playoffs]

No one is going to consider a player who went 3-8 in the finals and lost 4 finals mvps to inferior forwards as being in the conversation with Jordan in 10 years.

And kobe was never in the convo, KD will surpass kobe just like Shaq and LeBron did

[HurricaneKid]

I've been on "Team Lebron" in this thread, but I would question to some extent the idea that Magic was personally responsible for losing the 1984 Finals.

I know he choked on a handful of individual plays at the end of some games, missed FTs, etc...but didn't he play pretty damn well on the whole in the series, and even in the individual games in question?

I was being conceived during the 1984 Finals, so it was way before my time. I know the Tragic Johnson label got stuck to him for a bit and the narrative hung around for at least a year...but was it really fair?

In game two in a tie game the Lakers had the ball. Magic must have thought they were winning because he simply dribbled the clock out. The Lakers lost in OT. Does that overcome what otherwise was a pretty impressive game? I sure think so. Worthy shot 11/12 from the field and the Lakers still lost.

With less than a minute to go in a one possession game in G4 the Lakers had the chance to take a 3-1 series lead. Magic makes a wildly careless turnover and the Celtics tie the game and put it into OT. Late in OT the Lakers are down 2 with Magic on the line and he misses both. Lakers foul, Celtics win. Two evident chokes there in high leverage moments certainly overcome his otherwise impressive game IMO. Somehow, Lakers still manage to get to a G7. In a 1 possession game with < 1 min left Magic loses the ball with no one on him. He was dreadful in G7, shooting 5/14 with 7 TOs.

Watching those plays you almost wonder if he was throwing the game. He was so tentative and the plays were SOOOooo bad the question actually comes to mind.

The Lakers outscored the Celtics by 16 for the series and lost, mainly because of Magic's failures in high leverage situations. The Lakers also got DESTROYED on the boards. Still, they had no business losing that series.

[Bush4Ever]

Post

For sure.

To my way of thinking, he obviously had a number of crucial missteps in critical moments, but at the same time in at least most of those games, if he doesn't have an impressive game up to that point, they aren't close to winning at the end anyway.

That makes the "they lost because of him" charge fairly misleading IMO. I don't think you can really reduce entire 48 minute games to a handful of plays at the end of games. It all counts towards the bottom line, even if some plays are more pressure-filled/difficult than others. IIRC, the Celtics had an absurd number of offensive rebounds in that game 4 victory where Magic missed the crucial FTs...that's hard to pin on Magic.

Imagine the opposite case where a guy goes 5 for 20 and hits a game-winning shot...would you feel comfortable saying his team won because of him? I wouldn't.

[ESPN_Skip]

2010 - meltdown against celtics (2nd round)

2011 - meltdown against mavs (finals)

2014 - lost by an NBA record margin in the finals

2015 - nba record worst 3pt shooting in playoffs

2017 - lost by 2nd worst margin of victory in the finals while being on the team with the highest payroll in nba history

combine this with the constant jumping around from team to team and the easy paths in the playoffs, getting every call, crying b/c someone called him the b word...

[HurricaneKid]

Post

For sure.

To my way of thinking, he obviously had a number of crucial missteps in critical moments, but at the same time in at least most of those games, if he doesn't have an impressive game up to that point, they aren't close to winning at the end anyway.

That makes the "they lost because of him" charge fairly misleading IMO. I don't think you can really reduce entire 48 minute games to a handful of plays at the end of games. It all counts towards the bottom line, even if some plays are more pressure-filled/difficult than others. IIRC, the Celtics had an absurd number of offensive rebounds in that game 4 victory where Magic missed the crucial FTs...that's hard to pin on Magic.

Imagine the opposite case where a guy goes 5 for 20 and hits a game-winning shot...would you feel comfortable saying his team won because of him? I wouldn't.

He had the 1st team All NBA C go for 27/8/4/2/2 and Worthy going for 22/ on .638 from the field. Saying he was carrying the team is more than a small stretch.

I'm sure you can easily find the plays on YouTube. Watch them and tell me he wasn't at fault. Explain how he just runs the clock out and tell me what would happen if LeBron had done that in G2 this year. If he would have been forgiven because he had a nice statline. Heck, people are calling him a choker for not taking over games, much less ACTUAL CHOKING.

[Bush4Ever]

He had the 1st team All NBA C go for 27/8/4/2/2 and Worthy going for 22/ on .638 from the field. Saying he was carrying the team is more than a small stretch.

I'm sure you can easily find the plays on YouTube. Watch them and tell me he wasn't at fault. Explain how he just runs the clock out and tell me what would happen if LeBron had done that in G2 this year. If he would have been forgiven because he had a nice statline. Heck, people are calling him a choker for not taking over games, much less ACTUAL CHOKING.

I'm not saying he carried them. I've seen all the plays in question. I know he messed up on those plays.

I'm saying I don't think the charge that he was the main cause of the loss(es) is particularly fair. It seems to literally discount 90+ percent of the game (where he seemed to play quite well) in exchange for entire emphasis on a small handful of plays at the end of the game.

Those are very different ideas.

Using Game 4 as an example, the Celtics grabbed 27 offensive rebounds (yes...27). Yes, in OT...but as a reference point the average offensive rebounds per game for a team was 14 in 1984. If the Lakers bigs hold that to a more manageable level, the game isn't even close in the first place when Magic is shooting those regulation FTs.

I'm just arguing for a more balanced approach that acknowledges a) that he seemed to play very well for most of the game and b) that he played pretty terribly in the closing moments.

A plus B amounts to something more generous than "he caused them to lose". IMO anyway.

[G35]

I really don't understand this "failing when it matters most" argument that never seems to go away. Here's how I'd rank playoff success:

A) Winning 4 playoff rounds (title)
B) Winning 3 playoff rounds (losing in Finals)
C) Winning 0, 1 or 2 playoff rounds (not making it to finals)

I don't get any argument that C is better than B. How does failing *before* it "matters most" make it better? If you're going to compare playoff successes, you need to count A, B AND C, in that order.

That weird ranking of "B worse than C" makes zero sense to me. I can't imagine any professional basketball player agreeing with it either.

Winning is always better than losing, particularly in a team sense which then translates to the players.

However, I do think strength of conference matters a lot. Level of competition matters a lot. If I had to make a comparison using fantasy football/basketball leagues; if you are playing in a "free" league and you have several championships, championship appearances I will hold that in less regard than someone who is playing in a "pay to play" league where the competition is going to be stronger. If you have fewer titles, less title appearances it is very possible that I would rank the player in the pay to play league over the free league.

Further, if there was situation where the "free" league champion played the "pay to play" champion and the P2P champion is consistently winning over the free champion, I'm going have less regard for that free champion.......

[chrispak98]

2010 - meltdown against celtics (2nd round)

2011 - meltdown against mavs (finals)

2014 - lost by an NBA record margin in the finals

2015 - nba record worst 3pt shooting in playoffs

2017 - lost by 2nd worst margin of victory in the finals while being on the team with the highest payroll in nba history

combine this with the constant jumping around from team to team and the easy paths in the playoffs, getting every call, crying b/c someone called him the b word...

Reported for clear trolling/baiting

And BTW, your logic is beyond stupid

2014: Wade and Bosh were **** in that series. Replace LeBron with anybody, nobody could have beat the Spurs that series. They were too hot from 3

2015: He didn't have Kyrie and Kevin Love

2017: LeBron averaged a triple double, he was never expected to beat that team

Why am i even bothering to respond to you, you clearly don't believe anything you say. You merely post this **** because your life has no meaning. I feel bad for you tbh

[chrispak98]

To answer the question at hand

LeBron has surpassed Bird and Magic.

With 4 MVPs, 3 FMVPs, a Finals Series in which he led ALL players in every stat (2016), and dominant postseason performances (Game 5 against Detroit, Game 6 against Boston, Games 5/6 against GSW), I can not see a feasible argument for Bird or Magic over LeBron

I personally have LeBron at 3rd all-time, and the only players besides Jordan and Kareem that have a case against LeBron IMO is Shaq (More dominant peak) and Russell (Ultimate winner)

[hoophabit]

Lebron is one of the all-time greats. Team dynamics vary. How many angels can stand on the head of a pin?

[joeyAdaMan]

MJ, KAJ, and Lebron are in a class of their own IMO....Magic didn't peak high enough for me and he had another GOAT candidate as a teammate...Bird didn't have the longevity and neither of these guys were special or even notable on defense....the only reason to take either guy over Lebron is bias(Lakers and Celtics fans) or nostalgia(you're old)

[Camping Fan]

LeBron has definitely Not passed Bird or Magic and never will, but he is one of the best players in the NBA as of right now

i was with you until that part

He might pass in numbers, but in the terms of greatness - Bird was a pioneer that paved the way for players like LeBron and truthfully - I don't think LeBron has enough time left in his career to pass Bird, but if he leaves Cleveland next year and wins a couple of more titles, then yeah, he will be there. I think he can eventually be considered equal to Bird, but not better - Bird didn't leave teams and join teams like LeBron did. The collusion factor does affect his greatness spectrum and in his early years He quit and gave up - Bird never quit and gave up and If you assembled he best team possible and put it up against Bird and Walton - I hate the Celtics, but they were really good man

[RCM88x]

LeBron has definitely Not passed Bird or Magic and never will, but he is one of the best players in the NBA as of right now

i was with you until that part

He might pass in numbers, but in the terms of greatness - Bird was a pioneer that paved the way for players like LeBron and truthfully - I don't think LeBron has enough time left in his career to pass Bird, but if he leaves Cleveland next year and wins a couple of more titles, then yeah, he will be there. I think he can eventually be considered equal to Bird, but not better - Bird didn't leave teams and join teams like LeBron did. The collusion factor does affect his greatness spectrum and in his early years He quit and gave up - Bird never quit and gave up and If you assembled he best team possible and put it up against Bird and Walton - I hate the Celtics, but they were really good man

No need to leave teams when your given HoF players by your first team. Also no need to leave when you can't because FA doesn't exist...