Has Lebron 'Definitely' Surpassed Bird & Magic?

[Pablo Novi]

I was ever so fortunate to get to see the Harlem Globetrotters a number of time LIVE in the 1958-59 season. They had this amazing "Point Guard"; what was his name? Oh year ... Wilt Chamberlain. I followed him into the NBA (which was not nearly the draw the 'Trotters were up til then). So I've been a rabid NBA-ABA-NBL fan for 58 years. As soon as Jerry West joined the League, the West-Baylor due became (and have remained my All-Time two favorite players - each time I try to chose between them, I switch my vote). I DO have Jerry ranked as GOAT SG#3 (behind MJ & Kobe); while I have Elgin ranked as GOAT SF#4 (behind: LBJ, Dr J, & Bird).

As to this discussion.
My overall GOAT list is:
1. KAJ (10 Finals beats 6 Finals (and FOUR non-Finals losses everyday of the week); Greatest & Most Clutch Shot: Sky Hook; Top 3 PEAK, TOP 1 PRIME)
2. MAGIC (9 Finals (with 5 Chips) for me beats 6 Finals with 3 non-Finals losses); GOAT TEAM-mate (challenged by LBJ)
3. MJ (NOT great TEAM-mate - punching two teammates in the face; quitting TWICE on his team (once for gambling); I don't admire his level of mania).
4. LBJ (I have had him moving up ONE GOAT spot every year for several years now; I anticipate this will continue for a while till he's at least about even with KAJ for GOAT.
5. TD
6 Wilt GOAT #2 Center; not counting Mikan in a super-weak era) most era-dominant player ever.
7. Dr J (GOAT #2 SF; his ABA years were PHENOMENAL; he was a bit better than Bird in the early 80s)
8. Kobe (GOAT #2 SG; 11 1st-Team ALL-NBA selections)
9. "O" (GOAT #2 PG)
10. Karl Malone (GOAT #2 PF; 11 1st-Team ALL-NBA selections)
11. Shaq
12. Jerry West
13. Bird
14. Pettit
15. Cousy
16. Bill Russell (sure he had 11 Rings in 13 seasons; but that team was an All-Star team led by the era-wise GOAT COACH AND GM, Red Auerbach who was easily worth 3+ points per game; and the C's won a lot of Play-Off games by 5 or less (or Overtime) and 7-game series). Also, I can not put him in my GOAT Top 15 because he was DOMINATED at HIS position in his ERA. During the 9 years they both were voted onto the ALL-NBA teams; Wilt crushed Russ 7-2 1st-Team selections; that's DOMINATION. Russ's All-Star C's teams barely slowed Wilt (about 5 ppg) when we've always been told that Russell was the only other legit Center besides Wilt and/or that most of the Centers were slow, short white guys). And when their teams faced, Russ ALWAYS had his whole team helping him on defense to even try to slow Wilt). Also, of my GOAT Top 25, Russell is the ONLY one I think would have trouble being switched with an All-Time Great from other decades (because of that BAD close-to-the-basket shooting percent). He'd ALWAYS be GOAT Defender though.
17. Baylor
18. Stockton
19. George Gervin
20. Dirk
21. Hakeem
22. CP3
23. Rick Barry
24. KG
25. DWade

For me, LBJ easily has passed Bird as a SF - in virtually every way (and it won't be long before he passes him in total Rebounds)
I have LBJ just behind MJ (MJ had a lower number of Great Years (as defined by 1st-Team plus 2nd-Team selections) but better Play-Off success SO FAR) and Magic (barely the better TEAM-mate); but anticipate him passing MJ this coming season and Magic the season after that.

Then it's just LBJ vs Kareem. I anticipate IF LBJ, for the next 3 seasons, is at least 2nd-Team ALL-NBA each year; he passes KAJ.

[Pablo Novi]

______ IS & WILL ALWAYS BE THE GOAT! Really??
Perhaps a little HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE would aid all of us in our GOAT discussions.

When I grew up, the 1950s (with a dad who was an NBL-BAA-NBA fanatic) ALL such fans KNEW 100% that Mikan: was the GOAT and would always be the GOAT.

Until the end of the 1960 season (only a half-decade or so after Mikan had finished playing). He was still the GOAT; but Wilt had shown us that IF he remained uninjured, he'd DWARF Mikan. That was sobering for MOST of us (there were those who would never change their minds that Mikan was the GOAT right to their deaths.

Then we all KNEW that Wilt was the GOAT and would ALWAYS BE THE GOAT (though some of us, myself included, reflecting on how wrong we had been about Mikan; wondered whether it were possible that some player would come along who was better and/or more dominant than Wilt.

Then KAJ came along. I currently have him as my GOAT. But from the first moment I ranked him GOAT #1 I NEVER claimed he'd ALWAYS BE THE GOAT. I had learned THAT lesson well enough.

Then along came Dr J, Magic, Bird and MJ - GOAT claims were made for all of them.

In MJ's case, MOSTLY DUE TO THE INCREDIBLE HYPE (by Nike, the NBA, fellow players, etc); his "GOAT" status became a kind of religion - and it remains that way for MOST FANS to this day.

To show how much I loved MJ: I've been ecstatically married (to a truly one-in-a-million woman) for almost 31 years). The ONLY time I ever got upset with her was when she tried to get me to babysit our kids during MJ's Finals games.

PERHAPS, if he hadn't of quit TWICE; and, instead, accumulated as many Great Years as KAJ did - I'd have him as my GOAT.

Otoh, I feel absolute repulsion for this, "MJ IS THE GOAT & WILL ALWAYS BE THE GOAT!"

Even if one assumes he's the GOAT SO FAR: is there no chance that in the next 50 or 100 years; a player will come along that will be better / more dominant? That's ridiculously absurd - it's hero worship; it's religion.

[SeniorWalker]

While LeBron has definitely surpassed Bird and Magic (for #3 all time) in my book, I do find it a little unsettling that the bulk of 'accomplishments' that more or less define his legacy as this point are advanced statistics. Not entirely so obviously but in as much as they are, it bothers me that we automatically rank him that high in GOAT conversations when there are others who are comparable or at least in the ballpark statistically but are also more successful. We don't have to get into a discussion about that either, obviously credit for winning is not at all a straightforward conversation but still, why do we often take the opposite extreme, when the goal of basketball is not a statistically based one?

Simple. Because winning is more dependent on the uncontrollable environment than individual statistical output/production.

Most serious people can then evaluate how those outputs push the needle towards winning or losing, given the environment of the player and what they had to work with.

It's like coaching. You could take Pop or Phil Jackson or Riley and given them the 2018 Nets...they sure as hell aren't winning titles, but probably they bump them up 6-8 games from where they otherwise would have been with an average coach. You wouldn't take their losing record as an indication they are a below-average coach, right?

Fans should link team performance to individuals in the sense of how much the team won vs. what they would have otherwise won without the player in question. Not the absolute level of winning.

It seems like maybe, while statistical analysis is a useful exercise, that perhaps we're a little behind where we generally think we are in applying our methods in any absolute evaluations. Generally speaking I think the ground upon which we stand in using these things to prop up individual players is a little shaky. Especially given a high variance game like basketball.

[C_Alejandro]

LeBron didn't have the luxury of being drafted to a team with Kareem Abdul Jabber on the roster. So all of this nitpicking regarding LeBron choosing to play with Wade/Bosh is a little hypocritical.

LeBron had already surpassed both Bird/Magic by the time he left Miami in 2014.

He's a 6'9 260 pound point forward who's far more athletic than Magic, can play better defence, can shoot better than Magic, drive better than Magic, handle the rock better, and is an elite passer in his own right.

[G35]

Not entirely true...the Celtics were a 29 win team before Bird. He led them to the single greatest season turnaround as a rookie with 60 wins. This was before Parish/McHale and pretty much the same roster as that 29 win team

This was addressed earlier in the thread.

There is no question that Bird was the biggest reason, but it's also not true that 1980 was just 1979 plus Bird.

There were a handful of non-trivial differences between them outside of Bird.

And getting beyond the first year, the Celtics continued to supplement Bird with great talent for the era, which meant that Bird (or Magic) were simply never in Lebron's original position in the first place. Which makes the "Bird/Magic never teamed up and jumped ship" criticism utterly strange. It's not just the original situation, it's what continues to develop over time.

Who the heck would leave a top 1-3 talented team in the NBA?

Out of the top 10ish NBA players, the only one who could reasonably levy the original charge against Lebron is Jordan. Jordan is the only one who was drafted into a terrible situation and saw the thing all the way through the spectrum of success over a period of time. And even then, Krause (for all of his faults) generally had a keen eye for talent and roster assembly.

Kareem = Given Oscar Robertson his second year.
Russell = Came to a "solid" team
Magic = Came into a great situation, continually surrounded by great talent
Bird = Continually surrounded by great talent
Shaq = Got Penny in his second year. Came to a "good" team in the Lakers.
Kobe = Drafted into a great situation
Duncan = Drafted into a great situation with now-healthy D-Rob, most stable organization in modern history.
Wilt = Bounced around multiple teams (traded obviously)

The path that people all take are different.

Kareem went to the worst team in the league when he was drafted. Oscar was at the end of his career and was not able to sustain his level of play. Unlike the situation with Lebron who has Love/Kyrie right in their prime.

Russell was able to create the only real dynasty ever in the NBA with 11 titles in 13 years. Lebron hasn't been able to approach that despite being given every advantage i.e. playing in the weak conference, switching teams to younger, better performing players, being given say in roster decisions

Magic went into a great situation and was not given the keys to the team unlike Lebron. He had to work with Kareem and get them to buy into his direction for the team. It took years before he was the man on the team. He also was able to translate his supporting talent into results even while going up against other ATG teams

Bird went to the Celtics and was the lead dog on his team but his style of play allowed everyone on the team to thrive and be key contributors to the overall success of the team. Those Celtics also had to go through Julius Erving and the Sixers as well as Isiah and the Pistons, while still having to face the Lakers in the finals.

Shaq is the best comparison for Lebron in that he did franchise jump several times and he did make many demands on his teammates, he also did get a lot of criticism for being swept out of the playoffs for several years. However, at his most dominant there was no one better and he got the results and his teams were all time dominant.

Kobe went to a situation similar to Magic where he had to fit onto a team that had championship aspirations unlike Lebron where they built a team around him from the beginning. Kobe was able to mold his game around Shaq's particular style of dominance and still make a niche for himself. Then when Kobe and Shaq split, the Lakers were able to rebuild around Kobe and get to the finals three years later and repeat as champions. Lebron has not had to go through a rebuild in the middle of his career since he gets out when his current team's outlook does not look promising.

Duncan the picture of stability. The antithesis of Lebron. Adapted his game to whatever Popovich needed him to do. No comparison.

Wilt is a good comparison with Lebron since both did the one man team thing (Wilt was able to win in 1967) and both did their version of the superteam but Wilt was willing to adapt his game to the team. He was willing as long as the team won and the team did win...the 1972 Lakers are one of the ATG teams in NBA history....can't say that about any of Lebron's teams......

[jaypo]

There's so much FAIL in this thread that I have to reply when I'm done with my meeting!!

[Bush4Ever]

Post

I agree with most of that.

My point is simply that no one outside Jordan (and even then, it was only about 5 years before he had title-worthy supporting talent) was ever in a prolonged situation of playing with mediocre talent like Lebron was. Certainly no one in the top 10 in the free agency era qualifies.

People can think what they want to about him leaving, but using Bird/Magic and some others as a reference point for loyalty is pretty silly, since their loyalty was never tested in the first place, and in some ways couldn't even be tested prior to the free agency era.

Like someone else posted earlier, Magic wasn't even willing to go the Bulls in the first place. What would have happened if he had been drafted there *and* had the option to split via free agency after so many years? The evidence that we have certainly doesn't suggest he would have gutted it out.

[Hoopzilla]

When you give very logical examples and it goes over people's heads, you have to use more simple examples for them to understand the point you are making. You call it extreme, but it is just making a point, an exclamation point I guess. I do not ignore other instances that don't support my argument, I am just giving examples to support my case, which it does.

As for an example for how clutch Lebron is, funny how you had to go all the way to 2012 against a very young team to find something to support your argument. I didn't see him doing anything close to that in this year's Finals when Durant got a rematch and had a Super Team to match him. However, I did see him passing to Kyrie so he could win it for him and Durant draining a game winning shot in his face while he stood there and didn't even contest it.

The best example you could give to support Lebron being clutch, is from Game 2 in 2012, that is pretty sad, you would have thought in the last five Finals he would have clinched a title himself. I guess the block on Iguodala is the only play that would enter that category. See, I don't ignore the obvious. It is just a very weak argument for Lebron.

He did clinch a title in 2013. He hit the shot that put the Heat up 92-88 with 30 seconds to go and then hit both ft's after that which is what sealed the game. That was in a game 7 when players like Duncan and Ginobili were bricking shots from within 5 ft of the basket left and right. Now I am done wasting any time with you on this. You have your view and will believe it no matter how many shots are brought up showing LeBron hitting them in the final minutes of playoff games or making big plays.

The only reason you say you are done is because you have to go back a decade and can't find anything in the Finals worth mentioning, rather than simply admit to yourself the truth staring you in the face, so...

Ok, so speaking of clutch plays, there is "The is a steal by Bird" and "Magic down the middle" with the hook shot, Jordan over Ehlo. That is what people talk about with clutch plays. Lebron's block on Iguodala is the only play that enters that conversation. I haven't seen him take the ball in he dying seconds of a big game in the Finals and put a team away, but I have seen him pass it so others on his tam can do it for him. He still has time, maybe someday he won't run wilt under the bright lights. His 3-5 record in the Finals speaks volumes to that.

[jaypo]

When you give very logical examples and it goes over people's heads, you have to use more simple examples for them to understand the point you are making. You call it extreme, but it is just making a point, an exclamation point I guess. I do not ignore other instances that don't support my argument, I am just giving examples to support my case, which it does.

As for an example for how clutch Lebron is, funny how you had to go all the way to 2012 against a very young team to find something to support your argument. I didn't see him doing anything close to that in this year's Finals when Durant got a rematch and had a Super Team to match him. However, I did see him passing to Kyrie so he could win it for him and Durant draining a game winning shot in his face while he stood there and didn't even contest it.

The best example you could give to support Lebron being clutch, is from Game 2 in 2012, that is pretty sad, you would have thought in the last five Finals he would have clinched a title himself. I guess the block on Iguodala is the only play that would enter that category. See, I don't ignore the obvious. It is just a very weak argument for Lebron.

He did clinch a title in 2013. He hit the shot that put the Heat up 92-88 with 30 seconds to go and then hit both ft's after that which is what sealed the game. That was in a game 7 when players like Duncan and Ginobili were bricking shots from within 5 ft of the basket left and right. Now I am done wasting any time with you on this. You have your view and will believe it no matter how many shots are brought up showing LeBron hitting them in the final minutes of playoff games or making big plays.

The only reason you say you are done is because you have to go back a decade and can't find anything in the Finals worth mentioning, rather than simply admit to yourself the truth staring you in the face, so...

Ok, so speaking of clutch plays, there is "The is a steal by Bird" and "Magic down the middle" with the hook shot, Jordan over Ehlo. That is what people talk about with clutch plays. Lebron's block on Iguodala is the only play that enters that conversation. I haven't seen him take the ball in he dying seconds of a big game in the Finals and put a team away, but I have seen him pass it so others on his tam can do it for him. He still has time, maybe someday he won't run wilt under the bright lights. His 3-5 record in the Finals speaks volumes to that.

Didn't someone post an entire page showing clutch stats of MJ vs Lebron? Including game winners? Why is that not good enough for you?

Aren't back to back 41 pt games with insane rebound, assist, and fg% numbers while being down 3-1 without HCA in the finals considered "clutch"?

It's difficult to take you seriously because every time someone flat out proves your argument moot and silly, you take the goal posts and move them further! I'm seriously waiting for you to challenge someone to post a game winner from Lebron on a Tuesday of a leap year while wearing black socks with more than 35K people watching, etc, etc, etc. "because MJ did it!"

[Cavsfansince84]

The only reason you say you are done is because you have to go back a decade and can't find anything in the Finals worth mentioning, rather than simply admit to yourself the truth staring you in the face, so...

Ok, so speaking of clutch plays, there is "The is a steal by Bird" and "Magic down the middle" with the hook shot, Jordan over Ehlo. That is what people talk about with clutch plays. Lebron's block on Iguodala is the only play that enters that conversation. I haven't seen him take the ball in he dying seconds of a big game in the Finals and put a team away, but I have seen him pass it so others on his tam can do it for him. He still has time, maybe someday he won't run wilt under the bright lights. His 3-5 record in the Finals speaks volumes to that.

lol at the lengths you have to go to try and say LeBron has no clutch moments in the playoffs or finals. You have a right to your own opinion. I've been debating and discussing things on the internet long enough to know you can't force people to believe anything no matter how much evidence is brought forth. So that is why I said I am done wasting time and energy on you in this thread. I can't convince you of anything if you are determined to believe another. So just stop acting like you are in a discussion with someone who has any interest in having a conversation with you. I have no interest and don't want to waste any more time on this with you. Believe it or not the world will go on no matter what your opinion of LeBron is.

[jaypo]

When you give very logical examples and it goes over people's heads, you have to use more simple examples for them to understand the point you are making. You call it extreme, but it is just making a point, an exclamation point I guess. I do not ignore other instances that don't support my argument, I am just giving examples to support my case, which it does.

As for an example for how clutch Lebron is, funny how you had to go all the way to 2012 against a very young team to find something to support your argument. I didn't see him doing anything close to that in this year's Finals when Durant got a rematch and had a Super Team to match him. However, I did see him passing to Kyrie so he could win it for him and Durant draining a game winning shot in his face while he stood there and didn't even contest it.

The best example you could give to support Lebron being clutch, is from Game 2 in 2012, that is pretty sad, you would have thought in the last five Finals he would have clinched a title himself. I guess the block on Iguodala is the only play that would enter that category. See, I don't ignore the obvious. It is just a very weak argument for Lebron.

He did clinch a title in 2013. He hit the shot that put the Heat up 92-88 with 30 seconds to go and then hit both ft's after that which is what sealed the game. That was in a game 7 when players like Duncan and Ginobili were bricking shots from within 5 ft of the basket left and right. Now I am done wasting any time with you on this. You have your view and will believe it no matter how many shots are brought up showing LeBron hitting them in the final minutes of playoff games or making big plays.

The only reason you say you are done is because you have to go back a decade and can't find anything in the Finals worth mentioning, rather than simply admit to yourself the truth staring you in the face, so...

Ok, so speaking of clutch plays, there is "The is a steal by Bird" and "Magic down the middle" with the hook shot, Jordan over Ehlo. That is what people talk about with clutch plays. Lebron's block on Iguodala is the only play that enters that conversation. I haven't seen him take the ball in he dying seconds of a big game in the Finals and put a team away, but I have seen him pass it so others on his tam can do it for him. He still has time, maybe someday he won't run wilt under the bright lights. His 3-5 record in the Finals speaks volumes to that.

Also, the most "clutch" play I remember from MJ was a push off on Bryon Russell! A shot over Craig Ehlo is more impressive than scoring 25 straight points in the 4th vs. the Pistons? One steal is more clutch than Lebron's game vs. Boston?? As a matter of fact, the most memorable things I can remember about MJ (and I followed his entire career) are the shots from Paxson and Kerr, and the blocks under the rim on Charles Smith. None of which were from MJ's hand, and all of which were CRUCIAL building blocks in MJ's legacy. Without those 3 plays FROM OTHER PLAYERS, MJ has the same number of titles as LBJ.

Once again, your hate for Lebron is forcing you to make illogical statements. I don't expect to change your mind, but I do expect others to begin seeing your opinions as agenda driven and extremely biased!

[jaypo]

One other point of view that is related to some posts on here is that of Lebron "teaming up with friends". Here is the issue I have with that criticism. When MJ slapped teammates and acted like a total "tool bag", he was let off the hook because it was his "competitive nature" which he is praised for. When Kobe demanded trades and publicly blasted his teammates for lack of help, he was praised for his "competitive nature and work ethic". Nobody batted an eye when Magic basically forced his way to play with KAJ. Lebron is criticized for taking a different route for the same REASON. He wanted to win. So he put himself in that position. Same as Kobe. Same as Magic. Lebron wasn't blessed with a top 25 player to start his career. He stayed on the same team that failed to put all stars around him until his 7th year. He took a step to put himself in a position to win by signing with the Heat. Just like Magic when he forced his way to the Lakers. Just like Kobe when he leveraged his team to "miraculously get" Gasol. But only Lebron is criticized for it. He is blasted for having a say so in the players the teams put around him. Do you really expect him OR ANY OTHER PLAYER IN HISTORY to tell his GM "well, put the worst players around me just so I can prove to everybody that I can win with scrubs"!

People shouldn't try to argue points when they're being driven by hate against a player!!

[bringinhinkie]

http://www.nba.com/news/features/scott_howard_cooper/top-finals-moments-magic-johnson-plays-center-game-6-philadelphia-76ers-los-angeles-lakers-1980-finals/

The Game: 1980 Finals, Game 6

The Series Situation: Los Angeles Lakers lead Philadelphia 76ers, 3-2

The Play: With Kareem Abdul-Jabbar home in Los Angeles resting a sprained ankle suffered the game before, rookie Magic Johnson jumped center, played every position and piled up 42 points, 15 rebounds and seven assists in a 123-107 victory that clinched the championship.

The Significance: Not merely a night that would stand as one of the great moments on the court in Johnson's career, Game 6 remains emblematic of his megawatt personality that captured the basketball and marketing world. It wasn't enough that Magic had been unfazed by the attention all season as the No. 1 pick in the draft in a marquee franchise. He took it to the next level in The Finals. Upon boarding the flight from Los Angeles to Philadelphia, he took Abdul-Jabbar's usual seat in the first row, winked at coach Paul Westhead and announced to the other Lakers, "Never fear, E.J. is here." Earvin Johnson definitely was. While Jamaal Wilkes delivered his own performance for the ages by scoring 25 points in the second half and 37 in all, Magic and the spotlight had an unbreakable bond.

-- Scott Howard-Cooper

I'll put him over Bird.. I actually would have even a few years ago.. Magic it's close.. could make the argument either way.. starting a franchise, i'd take these 2 and jordan over anyone.. even all the great bigs (shaq, kaj, wilt, russell, etc)

[jaypo]

http://www.nba.com/news/features/scott_howard_cooper/top-finals-moments-magic-johnson-plays-center-game-6-philadelphia-76ers-los-angeles-lakers-1980-finals/

The Game: 1980 Finals, Game 6

The Series Situation: Los Angeles Lakers lead Philadelphia 76ers, 3-2

The Play: With Kareem Abdul-Jabbar home in Los Angeles resting a sprained ankle suffered the game before, rookie Magic Johnson jumped center, played every position and piled up 42 points, 15 rebounds and seven assists in a 123-107 victory that clinched the championship.

The Significance: Not merely a night that would stand as one of the great moments on the court in Johnson's career, Game 6 remains emblematic of his megawatt personality that captured the basketball and marketing world. It wasn't enough that Magic had been unfazed by the attention all season as the No. 1 pick in the draft in a marquee franchise. He took it to the next level in The Finals. Upon boarding the flight from Los Angeles to Philadelphia, he took Abdul-Jabbar's usual seat in the first row, winked at coach Paul Westhead and announced to the other Lakers, "Never fear, E.J. is here." Earvin Johnson definitely was. While Jamaal Wilkes delivered his own performance for the ages by scoring 25 points in the second half and 37 in all, Magic and the spotlight had an unbreakable bond.

-- Scott Howard-Cooper

I'll put him over Bird.. I actually would have even a few years ago.. Magic it's close.. could make the argument either way.. starting a franchise, i'd take these 2 and jordan over anyone.. even all the great bigs (shaq, kaj, wilt, russell, etc)

With me, it's tough to rank him. I believe his body of work and talent rank him up there with the greats. And I know he has played with some good players. But I would have loved to see how his career would have unfolded if he were alongside someone of the caliber of KAJ. Or if he had a Pippen and Rodman at his side. Or McHale and Parish to dump it to. Or prime Shaq or DRob at his side. I believe his pure talent/skill ranks him up there with anybody. I believe after it's all said and done, his numbers will rank him up there with anyone. The ONLY knock I see on him is number of rings. But while I view rings as the ultimate goal for ANY player, I believe they need to be put in context- otherwise you have the Horry>MJ debate. When it's all said and done, he will be near the top of the all time points list (probably 3rd, at worst), assists (probably 6th behind Magic), playoff points (currently 1st), playoff rebounds (probably 4th behind TD), playof assists (probably 2nd behind Magic) etc. He is a 4 time MVP. So his individual accolades would paint a picture of one of the best ever. He also has 3 rings currently which is more than Wilt and the same as Larry legend. He has 3 FMVPS which is more than Bird, Wilt, and Kobe and the same amount as Magic, Shaq, and Duncan, and KAJ.

It's hard for me to knock him down when those things are iron clad.

[toodles23]

The only reason you say you are done is because you have to go back a decade and can't find anything in the Finals worth mentioning, rather than simply admit to yourself the truth staring you in the face, so...

Ok, so speaking of clutch plays, there is "The is a steal by Bird" and "Magic down the middle" with the hook shot, Jordan over Ehlo. That is what people talk about with clutch plays. Lebron's block on Iguodala is the only play that enters that conversation. I haven't seen him take the ball in he dying seconds of a big game in the Finals and put a team away, but I have seen him pass it so others on his tam can do it for him. He still has time, maybe someday he won't run wilt under the bright lights. His 3-5 record in the Finals speaks volumes to that.

So you want big time clutch plays in the Finals from Lebron, then you mention a play by Bird that happens in the Conference Finals and a play by Jordan that happened in the first round? And completely ignore his clutch shot to put his team up by 4 in the dying seconds of an NBA Finals game 7? And here's a quick compilation of some of Lebron's clutch playoff plays (with some of his recent plays first, because apparently plays that happened a while ago don't count because reasons):

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

At 7:50:

Watch on YouTube

25 straight vs. Pistons - includes game tying dunk with 10 seconds left in the 4th and game winner with 2 seconds left in 2OT

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

[Camping Fan]

LeBron has definitely Not passed Bird or Magic and never will, but he is one of the best players in the NBA as of right now

[ESPN_Skip]

Lebron's only success comes when his team is overwhelmingly more stacked than the competition.

His entire Heat run was a joke.

He needs not only Wade and Bosh (2 perennial all-stars) but great role players/former all-stars like ray, battier, miller, lewis...

Look at his competition in the east.

Celtics... washed up big 3 (still needed 7 in 2012)

Bulls... D.Rose and bunch of scrubs. Ronnie Brewer was starting for the bulls in 2011.

Pacers... Paul George and pure scrubs.

Lebron wants you think he's a hero for coming home. Truth is he saw a better super team. Kyrie and a ton of young prospects.

If GSW doesn't happen, the cavs would be the most stacked team in the league.

Remember K.Love was an elite rebounding big who could shoot 3's/space the floor and throw full court passes.

Look at the last cavs roster:

LBJ (mvp / all star)
kyrie (all-star)
love (all-star)
JR (former all-star)
korver (former all-star)
d-will (former all-star)
RJ (former all-star)
mo will (former all-star)

8 guys who have made an all-star team.

And still Lbj complains he doesn't have enough help.

This guy does everything he can to avoid competition. He is the biggest front runner in sports.

Up 20 on a dream team and yea he'll put up big numbers.

again... during clutch time when he knows the other team is going to foul, LBJ's role is to go FETCH the ball and be the inbound passer. wants no part of shooting late clutch free throws.

Seriously a guy who has been playing basketball for 30+ years can't make a 15 foot free throw? same guy who goes out of his way to tell us he's chasing the ghost?

Learn to shoot a free throw then we'll talk about bird and magic...lol

[loserX]

Look at the last cavs roster:

LBJ (mvp / all star)
kyrie (all-star)
love (all-star)
JR (former all-star)
korver (former all-star)
d-will (former all-star)
RJ (former all-star)
mo will (former all-star)

8 guys who have made an all-star team.

And still Lbj complains he doesn't have enough help.

Lol.

I assume based on your screen name that this is performance art in which you do an impression of Skip Bayless? Because in that case bravo, sir. Bravo. The resemblance is uncanny.

[Ecmic]

Lebron's only success comes when his team is overwhelmingly more stacked than the competition.

Look at the last cavs roster:

LBJ (mvp / all star)
kyrie (all-star)
love (all-star)
JR (former all-star)
korver (former all-star)
d-will (former all-star)
RJ (former all-star)
mo will (former all-star)

8 guys who have made an all-star team.

And still Lbj complains he doesn't have enough help.

JR and RJ were all-stars? They'd be surprised to hear it.

2008 Mo Williams and 2011 Deron Williams, and 2014 Korver weren't part of the "last Cavs roster".

[John Murdoch]

Props to the op . Good to hear breakdowns from some of the old timers for us young guys to gain perspective . I was with you until on Kareem but after that it got a little off for me. Jordans floor has to be at worst #2 and god fordide not 6. Also Olojuwan at #21 is asanine , he has an argument for 1-5 at the very least.