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Even though it's not over, I think he's had a long enough to career to pretty accurately compare. I'm just curious what basketball fans think.

Is Lebron definitely above and beyond both Bird, Magic, Kareem and everyone else outside of Jordan in the 'Greatest Basketball Player Ever' conversation?

Or is there still more to accomplish before that's a fact?


Edited: This question now includes everyone but Jordan. Has he surpassed everyone else?

Lebron is the best SF in NBA history and beating the 73-9 Warriors down 3-1 put him into top 3 all time behind Jordan and Kareem.

Lebron has clearly passed Bird. He beats him (or ties) in literally all the major components people usually use to decide rankings on an all-time list (better peak/prime, way better longevity, more hardware, same number of leading player rings, etc...).

What would the argument for Bird even be at this point?

I say this as a Celtics fan.

Edit: I think the same is basically true for Magic as well, but at least Magic has an advantage in a major category (rings). To me, it's somewhat clear Lebron actually played the game of basketball better than Magic, but I think a serious and reasonable person could have Magic slightly ahead of Lebron (not me though---Lebron is 3rd on my list).

Yeah, definitely. He's a better player than both and already has a much longer career than either.

I don't see how you can put LeBron over Magic, not for me.

I'd probably take him slightly over Bird though.

His superior defense gives him the edge over both.

Hello Brooklyn wrote:I don't see how you can put LeBron over Magic, not for me.

I'd probably take him slightly over Bird though.

Longevity and peak/prime play. Tbh, it's harder to make the argument for magic

Yes, he's surpassed everyone not named Jordan.

Yes, he has surpassed them both statistically and in terms of accomplishments. More MVPs, more 1st team appearances, more 1st team defense appearances, etc. Not that these mean everything in isolation, but cumulatively they are compelling. LeBron's resume is top 4 all-time right now, and I don't have Bird or Magic in my top 4.

Bird, yes. Magic, idk yet

I should probably have added Kareem's name to this list.

I could've just asked has he surpassed everyone not named Jordan?

Patches Perry wrote:Yes, he has surpassed them both statistically and in terms of accomplishments. More MVPs, more 1st team appearances, more 1st team defense appearances, etc. Not that these mean everything in isolation, but cumulatively they are compelling. LeBron's resume is top 4 all-time right now, and I don't have Bird or Magic in my top 4.

Magic has 3 MVPs, Lebron has 4. but Magic has 5 titles and Lebron only 3. How the hell is it definitive that Lebron is better? It's very close between the two. Let's actually have this debate instead of just stating things as facts.

Magic leads in TS% and blows Lebron out of the water in AST% and APG (11.2 vs 7). They are tied in rebounds per game. Lebron has better PER. Lebron a better scorer averaging more points.

What on earth about this is decisive to you? What I will definitely say is Magic made his teammates better than Lebron did, and Lebron scored better. That's all I can say is definitive.

As for the Kareem debate that's even more out of reach. Lebron DOES NOT HAVE more MVP's than kareem and Kareem has 2 more titles. How in the name of the basketball gods is Lebron "unquestionably" better?

If you want to believe Lebron's stats puts him over the edge because of certain things you value OK I will accept it. but to say there's no question is just idiocy IMO.

Of course not. Imagine how much Bird and Magic would've won if they decided to team up with each other. Lebron has spent his prime years ring-chasing. Those other guys were killers and hated their competition with a passion.

No. Not yet. In a few years his longevity will have him clearly above Bird imo but I could see people still arguing on behalf of Magic based on his rings. I think he is firmly on their level which in itself is a big accomplishment. I think in 4-5 years people will be more ready to say he is clearly better than both.

Edrees wrote:

Patches Perry wrote:Yes, he has surpassed them both statistically and in terms of accomplishments. More MVPs, more 1st team appearances, more 1st team defense appearances, etc. Not that these mean everything in isolation, but cumulatively they are compelling. LeBron's resume is top 4 all-time right now, and I don't have Bird or Magic in my top 4.

Magic has 3 MVPs, Lebron has 4. but Magic has 5 titles and Lebron only 3. How the hell is it definitive that Lebron is better? It's very close between the two.

Titles are team awards, I don't factor them at all.

Chi wrote:I should probably have added Kareem's name to this list.

I could've just asked has he surpassed everyone not named Jordan?

He has not passed Kareem.

JellosJigglin wrote:Of course not. Imagine how much Bird and Magic would've won if they decided to team up with each other. Lebron has spent his prime years ring-chasing. Those other guys were killers and hated their competition with a passion.

Because they had hall of fame teammates Bird's first ship had Tiny, Parrish and Mchale, Magic had the MVP and GOAT to me

MVP is soooo overvalued. Is Lebron the best player of the this decade? Yes unless Curry and Durant do not win other two rings. Comparing Nba basketball to other competitions was a nonsense during Magic&Bird reign. Now the pond is much smaller.
Winning only 3 times and losing 5 finals in this weak era sounds not good either.
Losing 2004 olympics, well... But for an individual statistics point of view, which means zero in a team sports if you do not win, ....

JellosJigglin wrote:Of course not. Imagine how much Bird and Magic would've won if they decided to team up with each other. Lebron has spent his prime years ring-chasing. Those other guys were killers and hated their competition with a passion.

Magic threatened to go back to school if he got drafted by the mediocre Bulls instead of Kareem's Lakers. He picked his team to chase rings before his career even started.

http://articles.latimes.com/1991-06-05/sports/sp-83_1_lakers

"I wouldn't have played here," Johnson said on the eve of Game 2 of the NBA finals between his team and the team that could have been his. "The only reason I came out was to play with Kareem and the Lakers."

Just so that's out there. Boy, what a killer.

I can hardly imagine how much you'd be blasting LeBron if he'd refused to go to Cleveland when drafted.

JellosJigglin wrote:Of course not. Imagine how much Bird and Magic would've won if they decided to team up with each other. Lebron has spent his prime years ring-chasing. Those other guys were killers and hated their competition with a passion.

It's slightly bizarre to me when people go down this road because Magic and Bird were born into great NBA situations in the first place.

By contrast, Lebron was born into a completely mediocre one, and eventually left to be on an elite-talented team, which Bird and Magic were essentially blessed with from day one.

Neither Bird nor Magic were ever in a position of being stuck in a mediocre situation in the first place.

It's like someone crediting a son of a millionaire for never stealing bread, and blasting some dude in an Indian slum for stealing, pointing out that the millionaire's son "never had to do that".