Where do you put Curry/Durant all time if they continue at current rate 3-4 more years?

[SF_Warriors]

Well at least you can admit he was pretty good in that finals....Again, I am not arguing curry deserved fvmp.

The warriors, including curry dropped the ball in 2016, lebron and the cavs deserve a lot of credit. If you are going to legacy shame steph..use that.

You mentioned what has curry done as the main option and I mentioned he led his team in scoring and assists in the 2015 finals. And then you try to downplay that fact but since when does averaging 26ppg in the finals not an impressive feat? Did you know he averaged more points in that finals than 9 of 15 of the past finals mvp winners?

Personally, he could have scored -5ppg that series as long as they won for all I care.

Again, I think this is a case of a Warriors fan being overly defensive over Curry. He was good in 2015 but he just wasn't great. Not when you compare him to the player he became the following year. If we are going to hold up 2016 Steph Curry as the sort of player he is and can be then the 2015 finals don't seem that great in comparison. Just as if LeBron had a finals where he avged 26/5/6 on 44% shooting I would say it was subpar for him. I would even say there is room to criticize LeBron for his 2015 finals where he avged 36/14/9 due to his low shooting % in that series. I try to be fair in all of my criticisms.

If 26ppg and 6apg is considered sub-par in your eyes, then you already answered your own question about how good of player curry should be considered.
Curry had a better finals at age 26 than lebron did btw.

but fair enough, we did expect much more from him in 2016. He did have a nice bounce back finals this year, though, although it is fair to say KD's presence was a factor.

The warriors players are a difficult group to quantify because they clearly benefit greatly from each other.

[DoItALL9]

Both would be Top-10

I'd be more inclined to think of Durant as top 10 but Curry more top 15-20 material. I think his game is a bit too one dimensional to put him above some of those players currently in the 10-15 range. Plus in my scenario he finishes with only 1 fmvp. I couldn't put him above players like Hakeem and KG who were terrors both on offense and on defense.

Quite possibly the most overrated (and overused) argument today. Who cares?

Player A is responsible for a +14 variance in points.
Player B is responsible for a +10 variance in points.

Player B is a "terror both on offense and defense"...but does it matter if the data says Player A is more impactful?

You're right people use this way too much without proper context.

[Cavsfansince84]

If 26ppg and 6apg is considered sub-par in your eyes, then you already answered your own question about how good of player curry should be considered.
Curry had a better finals at age 26 than lebron did btw.

but fair enough, we did expect much more from him in 2016. He did have a nice bounce back finals this year, though, although it is fair to say KD's presence was a factor.

The warriors players are a difficult group to quantify because they clearly benefit greatly from each other.

Well ya, because if we are going to compare him to other players commonly thought of as top 20 of all time(and more so ones whose main strength was scoring) then that's a pretty high standard for him to meet. Thus why I consider 26/6/5 on 44% shooting to not be that great. Given his play over the last 3 seasons it doesn't stand out as special for a player of his caliber whose main strength is scoring/shooting.

[DoItALL9]

The 2010 Heat were a 50ish win team with Wade and the following supporting cast.
Michael Beasley 14.8/6.4/1.3 50.5 TS% -6.5 BPM
Jermaine O'Neal 13.6/6.9/1.3 56.3 TS% -7.7 BPM
Udonis Haslem 9.9/8.1/0.7 53.8 TS% -6.9 BPM
Quentin Richardson 8.9/4.9/1.2 57.2 TS% 0.6 BPM
Mario Chalmers 7.1/1.8/3.4 51.9 TS% -2.2 BPM
Carlos Arroyo 6.1/1.8/3.1 52.9 TS% -3.0 BPM
Dorrell Wright 7.1/3.3/1.3 56.7 TS% -3.9 BPM
Joel Anthony 2.7/3.2/0.3 54.6 TS% 3.0 BPM

How many games do the 2010 Heat win if you make the following adjustments.
CUT: Beasley, O'Neal, Richardson, Arroyo
Add:
2010 Chris Bosh 24.0/10.8/2.4 59.2 TS% 3.7 BPM
2012 Ray Allen 14.2/3.1/2.4 60.7 TS% 2.6 BPM
2011 Shane Battier 7.6/4.5/2.3 56.7 TS% 2.5 BPM
2010 Mike Miller 10.9/6.2/3.9 62.3 TS% 2.0 BPM
2012 Chris Andersen 5.3/4.6 1.4 BLK 58.3 TS% 1.4 BPM

Mario Chalmers is 26 years old instead of 23, 8.6/2.2/3.5 57.6 TS% 1.1 BPM

That team very likely wins the 2010 NBA title. Period. LeBron wasn't the only addition to those Miami title teams, stop it. And beyond that, he joined the team that gave him the absolute BEST chance at forming a dynasty. He never had an option to join someone like Boston because they were capped out, and besides he was 25 years old. Their entire core was nearing the end of their primes, it would have been completely illogical.

LeBron tried to form a monopoly on NBA titles, "not 1, not 2, not 3...". Kevin Durant just did it better. And why did Kevin Durant do it? Because he watched LeBron James do it and cost him a chance at the title of the GOAT. If LeBron stays in Cleveland, OKC wins the 2012 title and Harden is re-signed to the max. OKC would very likely have 3 or 4 titles at minimum and be the prohibitive favorites for the next 5 years with Durant as the leader/centerpiece and he would 100% be on pace to surpass Jordan.

It's presumable They would've had some injuries along the way that would've prevented a couple titles but the okc gsw rivalry would've been an all timer

[DoItALL9]

Then let's talk about the overall impact. I just gave you an example.

You have Player A and Player B, who is a better two-way player.

But, Player A is a strong +15 and Player B is a +5 overall. Who's the better player? Is it B just because he's the better two-way player, or are there are factors and components that need to be looked at?

Obviously by overall impact I am factoring both things into the equation. Not just the fact that they are better two way players. Its to do with them as scorers, passers, rebounders, defenders and other intangibles.

I think I get what you mean dude ...

Let's say Steph is one of the best offensive players ever and he's a 10/10 at offense. His defense is a 5 (average). Now let's rank the offense and defense of some of the ATGs.

Michael Jordan: O = 10, D = 10
Lebron James: O = 9, D = 9
Hakeem: O = 8, D = 10
Kevin Durant: O = 10, D = 7
Kobe: O = 9, D = 8
Steph Curry: O = 10, D = 5

That's how Steph doesn't enter the Top 10 or 15 conversation for some people. Ben Wallace was probably a 10 in Defense too but he doesn't make anyone's all time list because he doesn't even get into the discussion because his offense was so poor. The other side of the ball matters when you're comparing GOATs.

There's potentially a problem there in limiting the numbers to 10. Curry's could arguably be being slighted

[lolathon234]

I just don't see how people can ignore how great Durant has been. Going back to 2012, he's arguably had the 3rd best prime in history behind only Jordan & LeBron. And he's clearly a better player now than he was at 24 years old, so it's a stretch to even consider that his "prime".

Pace adjusted(per 100), those 3 are on and island by themselves in box score impact.

Per 100 Possessions
Jordan 87-92 41.7/8.4/8.2 60.2 TS% 123 ORTG .296 WSp48 30.7 PER
LeBron 08-13 38.6/10.6/10.1 60.6 TS% 120 ORTG .296 WSp48 30.4 PER
Durant 12-17 38.8/10.7/6.7 64.0 TS% 123 ORTG .282 WSp48 28.5 PER

Shaq 99-03 38.4/16.3/4.5 58.5 TS% 115 ORTG .260 WSp48 30.1 PER
Kobe 06-10 39.2/7.3/6.6 56.5 TS% 114 ORTG .200 WSp48 25.0 PER
Bird 84-88 33.6/12.0/8.3 58.8 TS% 119 ORTG .237 WSp48 26.1 PER
Magic 87-91 28.5/9.0/16.1 61.1 TS% 123 ORTG .251 WSp48 25.8 PER
Kareem 73-77 30.8/16.4/5.0 57.4 TS% 113 ORTG .265 WSp48 26.8 PER
Duncan 01-06 31.9/17.4/4.9 55.0 TS% 111 ORTG .238 WSp48 26.2 PER



As for this KD couldn't win it on his own with an all star teammate, what year was he supposed to win it? Firstly, Westbrook was a HORRENDOUS fit for any superstar caliber player and that is obvious to anyone. You saw what Durant did when Westbrook was out of the lineup, averaged 32/11/7 59 TS% in 2013 playoffs and 35/8/7 65 TS% in 2014 regular season. Secondly, Westbrook was ALWAYS the one choking in the playoffs, not Durant. Thirdly, OKC lost w/ HCA 1 time and lost against opponents that were simply better. And did people really expect a 23 year old to lead to a team of 22 year olds to a win against prime LeBron, Wade, and Bosh?

2011: Lost to Dallas w/o HCA, NBA Champs
2012: Lost to Miami, NBA Champs
2013: Lost to Memphis, no Westbrook
2014: Lost to San Antonio w/o HCA, NBA Champs, Ibaka missed 1st 2 games
2015: Injured/Missed Playoffs
2016: Lost to 73-9 Golden State w/o HCA, also beat 67 win San Antonio w/o HCA

When was KD supposed to win a title given the above circumstance? 2014? Sure, they could have played better. But the guy still averaged 28/7/4 58 TS% against SA if you exclude the game he played 20 minutes to a blow out. If Ibaka doesn't miss the 1st 2 games, it could have gone very differently and they put up a much better fight(Lost in OT in G6) than LeBron/Miami who got destroyed in the Finals.

2016? Were they really expected to win the title going through a 67 and 73 win team without HCA? In Durant's 1st playoffs back after missing an entire season due to injury? Ya, ya, ya. I get it, KD choked in G6. He also scored 29 on 78 TS%, 40 on 55 TS%, and 27 on 65 TS% in the other 3 losses that series. So why focus solely on G6? And are we going to act like that choke job is even remotely comparable to what LeBron did in 2011? Hell, LeBron's choke job vs Boston in 2010 was even worse than Durant's vs Golden State given they were up 2-1, had HCA, and Boston was the inferior team.

Oh, he only has 1 MVP to date? He finished runner up 3 times in 4 years because he was was 21, 23, and 24 going up against peak LeBron. Did LeBron or Jordan have to worry about another player of that caliber stealing MVP's from them during their MVP seasons? In all likelihood, he repeats in 2015 if he wasn't injured, Curry happened in 2016, and then he missed 30 games in 2017. Moving forward, Durant is a frontrunner for the MVP for the foreseeable future and could very easily win 2 or 3 more by the time his career is done.


At the end of the day, Durant is an all timer who's career was often overlooked because he was following in the shadow of a top 2-3 player all time, playing his same position, that was 4 years older than him. Thus when he was a 21, 22, 23, 24 year old putting up historic numbers, there was a 25, 26, 27, 28 year old simply putting up better numbers. And that was incredibly unfair to Durant because he wasn't even in his prime while LeBron was in the heart of his. Who else had to deal with that?

Then when he finally turned a corner in 2014, winning the MVP and being seen as a true rival to LeBron, he had a foot injury that kept him out for the entire 2015 season and he was basically forgotten.

[DoItALL9]

Doesn't matter if Curry is one dimensional player. His offense is so elite that it makes up for his average defense. Defense is important but you still need to outscore your opponent to win the game. I might be in the minority here but I actually have Curry ahead of KD at the moment.

Curry's on/off & BPM/RAPM numbers are an illusion. Number 1, his metrics are almost identical to Draymond's because they're almost always on the floor together. So obviously the bench was going to be far worse losing it's best offensive and defensive player.

For 2, the Warriors run a motion offense. What is a motion offense?

A motion offense is a flexible offense that utilizes player movement, correct floor spacing, passing and cutting, and setting screens to exploit quickness of the offensive team or to neutralize a size advantage of the defense.

Who is Curry's backup? Shaun Livingston.

Livingston has 0 ability to space the floor and can be sagged off of at all times outside of 15 feet. Beyond that, Livingston isn't even a creator. He's one of the worst playmakers at his position in the league. Additionally, the Warriors primary bench unit featured Iguodala and West, 2 other players who can be left alone. Finally, McCaw and Clark are decent 3 point shooters, but they require a pass and aren't a threat unless spotting up.

Cutting/Backdoor isn't an issue when you don't have to worry about a player running around a screen for a quick release baseline jumper

Screens aren't an issue when you can sag off of the 3 point line and hedge/switch

And player movement isn't an issue when screens are in-effective

Passing isn't an issue when the offense has no playmaker at the PG position

Spacing isn't an issue when the offense lacks shooters to spread out the defense

Thus the motion offense collapses without Curry as the backup primary ball handler doesn't have to be closely guarded and the defense can play a pseudo zone, helping/switching off of screens with ease. That shrinks the floor and kills the scheme. It would essentially be like Cleveland trying to run their offense with LeBron & 4 other 25% 3 point shooters. It would be a disaster.

I see you keep repeating this. You realize Livingston by the end of the year was Klay's back up and rarely played without Curry. The coaching staff realized Livingston was tanking the offense so they stuck him next to the greatest offensive weapon and lo and behold the offense was fine again as long as Curry is on the floor.

With Livingston and Curry on the floor together and without the other big 3, the Warriors were still putting up 1.26 ppp.

I mean hell you'd think Klay and KD together would be able to hold down the spacing with Livingston but the big 3 minus Curry and with Livingston only put up 1.05 ppp.

Curry is the anomaly. Teams play Curry so differently than any other player in the history of the game that just about anyone will be fine playing alongside him.

It's been a running joke that the Warriors have been stacked offensively and have some awesome 3 point firepower, before KD. I absolutely believe that the Cavs team was more talented and stacked than the Warriors before KD.

I wish everyone could see this. Curry has an on-court influence that hasn't been seen before. In his own way it's like he's the goat. To this point he's incomparable.

[Cavsfansince84]

I just don't see how people can ignore how great Durant has been. Going back to 2012, he's arguably had the 3rd best prime in history behind only Jordan & LeBron. And he's clearly a better player now than he was at 24 years old, so it's a stretch to even consider that his "prime".

Pace adjusted(per 100), those 3 are on and island by themselves in box score impact.

Per 100 Possessions
Jordan 87-92 41.7/8.4/8.2 60.2 TS% 123 ORTG .296 WSp48 30.7 PER
LeBron 08-13 38.6/10.6/10.1 60.6 TS% 120 ORTG .296 WSp48 30.4 PER
Durant 12-17 38.8/10.7/6.7 64.0 TS% 123 ORTG .282 WSp48 28.5 PER

Shaq 99-03 38.4/16.3/4.5 58.5 TS% 115 ORTG .260 WSp48 30.1 PER
Kobe 06-10 39.2/7.3/6.6 56.5 TS% 114 ORTG .200 WSp48 25.0 PER
Bird 84-88 33.6/12.0/8.3 58.8 TS% 119 ORTG .237 WSp48 26.1 PER
Magic 87-91 28.5/9.0/16.1 61.1 TS% 123 ORTG .251 WSp48 25.8 PER
Kareem 73-77 30.8/16.4/5.0 57.4 TS% 113 ORTG .265 WSp48 26.8 PER
Duncan 01-06 31.9/17.4/4.9 55.0 TS% 111 ORTG .238 WSp48 26.2 PER

I think overall you made some good points in terms of Durant's level of regular season dominance. I just don't know that I'd put him on an island with MJ and LeBron while leaving some of the others off. I'd also say Kareem is slightly getting short changed with not including his 71-72 seasons which were prob his best. David Robinson could prob also get thrown in if we are looking purely at per/ws/48. Also no Wilt. I agree though that in terms of peak years Durant is up there with most of the best. Much more so than Curry is up to now.

[G35]

Durant's been in the league for 10 years and if you look at Lebron's first 10 years he's just clearly been a way better player by every measurable statistic.

I don't think Curry will ever be considered better than Lebron or Durant.

Reasonable NBA fan's won't just blindly put Durant over Lebron if he wins a few more championships. Basically any all time time great could join a 73 win team in his prime and win championships. It's the same reason why people have certain players over Kobe even though he has 5 rings...because there's ton's of players that could win with Prime Shaq against the **** eastern conference teams of the early 2000's

It will not happen, but if Kd can give 4-1 every year to lbj or even sweep, it will be obvious he is the best of the two. He is clearly a better Fiba player already. So if lbj is considered top 10, well top 5 could be possible. Do not forget the short term memory of bandwagoners that are ready to forgive the joining forces of both kd and lbj. Both are overrated but who judges? A millennial, a baby boomer or an x generation?
Curry will go down as the best shooter ever. Which is better than a generic top 20

This is what many people are missing. During every era, I'm sure there were people having these same debates:

"Reasonable people are not going to someone over Jerry West just because they win a few championships"

"Reasonable people are not going to someone over Wilt Chamberlain just because they win a few championships"

"Reasonable people are not going to someone over Kareem Abdul Jabaar just because they win a few championships"

"Reasonable people are not going to someone over Larry Bird just because they win a few championships"

"Reasonable people are not going to someone over Magic Johnson just because they win a few championships"

"Reasonable people are not going to someone over Shaquille O'Neal just because they win a few championships"


Yes reasonable people will. It just depends on which reasonable people you will be polling. The problem with stats is they don't translate over time. Championships do. If the Warriors are able to string three titles in a row, KD and Steph will be at least top 10. If they get 4 titles in a row, it won't be a question, because the hyperbole/rhetoric will likely be out of control. People like winners...because they don't have to give any excuses for them. Lebron has not done anything we haven't seen before, he puts up great stats, but he never owned an era. From say 2007 until now it has been the Lakers/Spurs, with some Lebron teams and now the Warriors are about to take over.

The greats have their era:

Russell/Wilt have the 60's
Kareem has the 70's
Magic/Bird have the 80's
Jordan has the 90's
Shaq/Kobe/Duncan have the 2000's


If the Warriors win two of the next three or sweep the next three, the 2010's will be the KD/Curry era. Then as time marches on new fans are going to talk about the Warrior dynasty changed the NBA. Curry already has the notoriety of making the 3pt shot the most dominant play and what all the kids are imitating now. Honestly, if the Cavs and Warriors meet again it won't end well for Lebron. Durant is only getting better, if he lights up Lebron again...wins another Finals MVP...that is what "reasonable" people are going to remember......

[lolathon234]

I think overall you made some good points in terms of Durant's level of regular season dominance. I just don't know that I'd put him on an island with MJ and LeBron while leaving some of the others off. I'd also say Kareem is slightly getting short changed with not including his 71-72 seasons which were prob his best. David Robinson could prob also get thrown in if we are looking purely at per/ws/48. Also no Wilt. I agree though that in terms of peak years Durant is up there with most of the best. Much more so than Curry is up to now.

The adjusted stats aren't available pre 1973 IIRC, but Kareem's 71-72 season wasn't much better. And Wilt's first 5 seasons season are something like 34/14/4 54 TS% when adjusted for pace. Great, but not on that level.

And KD's playoffs career averages are stellar as well. 28.8/8.0/3.8 58.8 TS% and his efficiency/advanced metrics will likely grow exponentially over the next 5~ years, just as LeBron's did in Miami/2nd Cleveland stint.

Hell, Durant's playoff numbers series by series compare very favorably with prime LeBron in Miami despite Durant only being 22 years old to start in 2011.

2011 EC 1st (4-1) over 76ers
LeBron 24.2/10.6/6.2 58.7 TS%
Durant 32.4/5.6/3.6 62.8 TS% (4-1) over Denver in WC 1st

2011 ECSF (4-1) over Boston
LeBron 28.0/8.2/3.6 55.3 TS%
Durant 26.4/9.1/2.4 56.8 TS% (4-3) over Memphis in WCSF

2011 ECF (4-1) over Chicago
LeBron 25.8/7.8/6.6 56.9 TS%
Durant 28.0/9.4/4.0 55.3 TS% (1-4) L Dallas in WCF

2011 NBA Finals (2-4) L Dallas
LeBron 17.8/7.2/6.8 54.1 TS%


2012 EC 1st (4-1) over NYK
LeBron 27.8/6.2/5.6 60.4 TS%
Durant 26.5/7.3/3.8 57.9 TS% (4-0) over Dallas in WC 1st

2012 ECSF (4-2) over Indiana
LeBron 30.0/10.8/6.2 55.7 TS%
Durant 26.8/8.6/3.2 62.1 TS% (4-1) over LAL in WCSF

2012 ECF (4-3) over Boston
LeBron 33.6/11.0/3.9 58.7 TS%
Durant 29.5/7.5/5.3 66.2 TS% (4-2) over SAS in WCF

2012 NBA Finals (4-1) over Oklahoma City
LeBron 28.6/10.2/7.4 55.8 TS%
Durant 30.6/6.0/2.2 65.0 TS%

2013 EC 1st (4-0) over Milwaukee
LeBron 24.5/7.8/6.8 67.9 TS%
Durant 32.5/7.8/6.0 61.0 TS% (4-2) over Houston in WC 1st

2013 ECSF (4-1) over Chicago
LeBron 23.6/7.0/7.8 57.3 TS% TS%
Durant 28.8/10.4/6.8 53.1 TS% (1-4) L Memphis in WCSF

2013 ECF (4-3) over Indiana
LeBron 29.0/7.3/5.3 60.9 TS%


2013 NBA Finals (4-3) over San Antonio
LeBron 25.3/10.9/7.0 52.9 TS%


2014 EC 1st (4-0) over Charlotte
LeBron 30.0/8.0/6.0 67.1 TS%
Durant 29.9/9.6/3.6 54.3 TS% (4-3) over Memphis in WC 1st

2014 ECSF (4-1) over Brooklyn
LeBron 30.0/6.4/3.6 68.3 TS% TS%
Durant 33.2/9.5/5.3 61.0 TS% (4-2) over LAC in WCSF

2014 ECF (4-2) over Indiana
LeBron 22.8/6.3/5.5 63.7 TS%
Durant 25.8/7.7/3.2 56.0 TS% (2-4) L SAS in WCF

2014 NBA Finals (1-4) L San Antonio
LeBron 28.2/7.8/4.0 67.9 TS%

[dan-man]

At a continued pace, I'd put them just behind Curry/Thompson.

[dan-man]

I just don't see how people can ignore how great Durant has been. Going back to 2012, he's arguably had the 3rd best prime in history behind only Jordan & LeBron. And he's clearly a better player now than he was at 24 years old, so it's a stretch to even consider that his "prime".

Pace adjusted(per 100), those 3 are on and island by themselves in box score impact.

Per 100 Possessions
Jordan 87-92 41.7/8.4/8.2 60.2 TS% 123 ORTG .296 WSp48 30.7 PER
LeBron 08-13 38.6/10.6/10.1 60.6 TS% 120 ORTG .296 WSp48 30.4 PER
Durant 12-17 38.8/10.7/6.7 64.0 TS% 123 ORTG .282 WSp48 28.5 PER

Shaq 99-03 38.4/16.3/4.5 58.5 TS% 115 ORTG .260 WSp48 30.1 PER
Kobe 06-10 39.2/7.3/6.6 56.5 TS% 114 ORTG .200 WSp48 25.0 PER
Bird 84-88 33.6/12.0/8.3 58.8 TS% 119 ORTG .237 WSp48 26.1 PER
Magic 87-91 28.5/9.0/16.1 61.1 TS% 123 ORTG .251 WSp48 25.8 PER
Kareem 73-77 30.8/16.4/5.0 57.4 TS% 113 ORTG .265 WSp48 26.8 PER
Duncan 01-06 31.9/17.4/4.9 55.0 TS% 111 ORTG .238 WSp48 26.2 PER



As for this KD couldn't win it on his own with an all star teammate, what year was he supposed to win it? Firstly, Westbrook was a HORRENDOUS fit for any superstar caliber player and that is obvious to anyone. You saw what Durant did when Westbrook was out of the lineup, averaged 32/11/7 59 TS% in 2013 playoffs and 35/8/7 65 TS% in 2014 regular season. Secondly, Westbrook was ALWAYS the one choking in the playoffs, not Durant. Thirdly, OKC lost w/ HCA 1 time and lost against opponents that were simply better. And did people really expect a 23 year old to lead to a team of 22 year olds to a win against prime LeBron, Wade, and Bosh?

2011: Lost to Dallas w/o HCA, NBA Champs
2012: Lost to Miami, NBA Champs
2013: Lost to Memphis, no Westbrook
2014: Lost to San Antonio w/o HCA, NBA Champs, Ibaka missed 1st 2 games
2015: Injured/Missed Playoffs
2016: Lost to 73-9 Golden State w/o HCA, also beat 67 win San Antonio w/o HCA

When was KD supposed to win a title given the above circumstance? 2014? Sure, they could have played better. But the guy still averaged 28/7/4 58 TS% against SA if you exclude the game he played 20 minutes to a blow out. If Ibaka doesn't miss the 1st 2 games, it could have gone very differently and they put up a much better fight(Lost in OT in G6) than LeBron/Miami who got destroyed in the Finals.

2016? Were they really expected to win the title going through a 67 and 73 win team without HCA? In Durant's 1st playoffs back after missing an entire season due to injury? Ya, ya, ya. I get it, KD choked in G6. He also scored 29 on 78 TS%, 40 on 55 TS%, and 27 on 65 TS% in the other 3 losses that series. So why focus solely on G6? And are we going to act like that choke job is even remotely comparable to what LeBron did in 2011? Hell, LeBron's choke job vs Boston in 2010 was even worse than Durant's vs Golden State given they were up 2-1, had HCA, and Boston was the inferior team.

Oh, he only has 1 MVP to date? He finished runner up 3 times in 4 years because he was was 21, 23, and 24 going up against peak LeBron. Did LeBron or Jordan have to worry about another player of that caliber stealing MVP's from them during their MVP seasons? In all likelihood, he repeats in 2015 if he wasn't injured, Curry happened in 2016, and then he missed 30 games in 2017. Moving forward, Durant is a frontrunner for the MVP for the foreseeable future and could very easily win 2 or 3 more by the time his career is done.


At the end of the day, Durant is an all timer who's career was often overlooked because he was following in the shadow of a top 2-3 player all time, playing his same position, that was 4 years older than him. Thus when he was a 21, 22, 23, 24 year old putting up historic numbers, there was a 25, 26, 27, 28 year old simply putting up better numbers. And that was incredibly unfair to Durant because he wasn't even in his prime while LeBron was in the heart of his. Who else had to deal with that?

Then when he finally turned a corner in 2014, winning the MVP and being seen as a true rival to LeBron, he had a foot injury that kept him out for the entire 2015 season and he was basically forgotten.

If it were all about stats and x's and o's, I'd agree w/you.

[Edrees]

They both will end up in top 15. I think top 10 will be too hard to crack for either of them but its possible. Durant has a shot if he ends up with 3 or more finals MVPs.

Once curry faces a non Cleveland team in the finals, you'll see just how good he is. The way cleveland has played him has elevated his teammates so much and restricted his numbers. I've honestly never seen one team focus so much D on one player in my life. It's hard for me to judge where Curry goes.

[Cavsfansince84]

The adjusted stats aren't available pre 1973 IIRC, but Kareem's 71-72 season wasn't much better. And Wilt's first 5 seasons season are something like 34/14/4 54 TS% when adjusted for pace. Great, but not on that level.

And KD's playoffs career averages are stellar as well. 28.8/8.0/3.8 58.8 TS% and his efficiency/advanced metrics will likely grow exponentially over the next 5~ years, just as LeBron's did in Miami/2nd Cleveland stint.

Kareem's 71 and 72 seasons were his best with regard to per and ws/48 though so it would kind of have an impact on a peak years average. Also 78 was a very good season for him.

[DoItALL9]

I just don't see how people can ignore how great Durant has been. Going back to 2012, he's arguably had the 3rd best prime in history behind only Jordan & LeBron. And he's clearly a better player now than he was at 24 years old, so it's a stretch to even consider that his "prime".

Pace adjusted(per 100), those 3 are on and island by themselves in box score impact.

Per 100 Possessions
Jordan 87-92 41.7/8.4/8.2 60.2 TS% 123 ORTG .296 WSp48 30.7 PER
LeBron 08-13 38.6/10.6/10.1 60.6 TS% 120 ORTG .296 WSp48 30.4 PER
Durant 12-17 38.8/10.7/6.7 64.0 TS% 123 ORTG .282 WSp48 28.5 PER

Shaq 99-03 38.4/16.3/4.5 58.5 TS% 115 ORTG .260 WSp48 30.1 PER
Kobe 06-10 39.2/7.3/6.6 56.5 TS% 114 ORTG .200 WSp48 25.0 PER
Bird 84-88 33.6/12.0/8.3 58.8 TS% 119 ORTG .237 WSp48 26.1 PER
Magic 87-91 28.5/9.0/16.1 61.1 TS% 123 ORTG .251 WSp48 25.8 PER
Kareem 73-77 30.8/16.4/5.0 57.4 TS% 113 ORTG .265 WSp48 26.8 PER
Duncan 01-06 31.9/17.4/4.9 55.0 TS% 111 ORTG .238 WSp48 26.2 PER



As for this KD couldn't win it on his own with an all star teammate, what year was he supposed to win it? Firstly, Westbrook was a HORRENDOUS fit for any superstar caliber player and that is obvious to anyone. You saw what Durant did when Westbrook was out of the lineup, averaged 32/11/7 59 TS% in 2013 playoffs and 35/8/7 65 TS% in 2014 regular season. Secondly, Westbrook was ALWAYS the one choking in the playoffs, not Durant. Thirdly, OKC lost w/ HCA 1 time and lost against opponents that were simply better. And did people really expect a 23 year old to lead to a team of 22 year olds to a win against prime LeBron, Wade, and Bosh?

2011: Lost to Dallas w/o HCA, NBA Champs
2012: Lost to Miami, NBA Champs
2013: Lost to Memphis, no Westbrook
2014: Lost to San Antonio w/o HCA, NBA Champs, Ibaka missed 1st 2 games
2015: Injured/Missed Playoffs
2016: Lost to 73-9 Golden State w/o HCA, also beat 67 win San Antonio w/o HCA

When was KD supposed to win a title given the above circumstance? 2014? Sure, they could have played better. But the guy still averaged 28/7/4 58 TS% against SA if you exclude the game he played 20 minutes to a blow out. If Ibaka doesn't miss the 1st 2 games, it could have gone very differently and they put up a much better fight(Lost in OT in G6) than LeBron/Miami who got destroyed in the Finals.

2016? Were they really expected to win the title going through a 67 and 73 win team without HCA? In Durant's 1st playoffs back after missing an entire season due to injury? Ya, ya, ya. I get it, KD choked in G6. He also scored 29 on 78 TS%, 40 on 55 TS%, and 27 on 65 TS% in the other 3 losses that series. So why focus solely on G6? And are we going to act like that choke job is even remotely comparable to what LeBron did in 2011? Hell, LeBron's choke job vs Boston in 2010 was even worse than Durant's vs Golden State given they were up 2-1, had HCA, and Boston was the inferior team.

Oh, he only has 1 MVP to date? He finished runner up 3 times in 4 years because he was was 21, 23, and 24 going up against peak LeBron. Did LeBron or Jordan have to worry about another player of that caliber stealing MVP's from them during their MVP seasons? In all likelihood, he repeats in 2015 if he wasn't injured, Curry happened in 2016, and then he missed 30 games in 2017. Moving forward, Durant is a frontrunner for the MVP for the foreseeable future and could very easily win 2 or 3 more by the time his career is done.


At the end of the day, Durant is an all timer who's career was often overlooked because he was following in the shadow of a top 2-3 player all time, playing his same position, that was 4 years older than him. Thus when he was a 21, 22, 23, 24 year old putting up historic numbers, there was a 25, 26, 27, 28 year old simply putting up better numbers. And that was incredibly unfair to Durant because he wasn't even in his prime while LeBron was in the heart of his. Who else had to deal with that?

Then when he finally turned a corner in 2014, winning the MVP and being seen as a true rival to LeBron, he had a foot injury that kept him out for the entire 2015 season and he was basically forgotten.

LeBron fans might argue he was in the shadow of prime Duncan and prime Kobe when he was young.

[clyde21]

I just don't see how people can ignore how great Durant has been. Going back to 2012, he's arguably had the 3rd best prime in history behind only Jordan & LeBron. And he's clearly a better player now than he was at 24 years old, so it's a stretch to even consider that his "prime".

Pace adjusted(per 100), those 3 are on and island by themselves in box score impact.

Per 100 Possessions
Jordan 87-92 41.7/8.4/8.2 60.2 TS% 123 ORTG .296 WSp48 30.7 PER
LeBron 08-13 38.6/10.6/10.1 60.6 TS% 120 ORTG .296 WSp48 30.4 PER
Durant 12-17 38.8/10.7/6.7 64.0 TS% 123 ORTG .282 WSp48 28.5 PER

Shaq 99-03 38.4/16.3/4.5 58.5 TS% 115 ORTG .260 WSp48 30.1 PER
Kobe 06-10 39.2/7.3/6.6 56.5 TS% 114 ORTG .200 WSp48 25.0 PER
Bird 84-88 33.6/12.0/8.3 58.8 TS% 119 ORTG .237 WSp48 26.1 PER
Magic 87-91 28.5/9.0/16.1 61.1 TS% 123 ORTG .251 WSp48 25.8 PER
Kareem 73-77 30.8/16.4/5.0 57.4 TS% 113 ORTG .265 WSp48 26.8 PER
Duncan 01-06 31.9/17.4/4.9 55.0 TS% 111 ORTG .238 WSp48 26.2 PER



As for this KD couldn't win it on his own with an all star teammate, what year was he supposed to win it? Firstly, Westbrook was a HORRENDOUS fit for any superstar caliber player and that is obvious to anyone. You saw what Durant did when Westbrook was out of the lineup, averaged 32/11/7 59 TS% in 2013 playoffs and 35/8/7 65 TS% in 2014 regular season. Secondly, Westbrook was ALWAYS the one choking in the playoffs, not Durant. Thirdly, OKC lost w/ HCA 1 time and lost against opponents that were simply better. And did people really expect a 23 year old to lead to a team of 22 year olds to a win against prime LeBron, Wade, and Bosh?

2011: Lost to Dallas w/o HCA, NBA Champs
2012: Lost to Miami, NBA Champs
2013: Lost to Memphis, no Westbrook
2014: Lost to San Antonio w/o HCA, NBA Champs, Ibaka missed 1st 2 games
2015: Injured/Missed Playoffs
2016: Lost to 73-9 Golden State w/o HCA, also beat 67 win San Antonio w/o HCA

When was KD supposed to win a title given the above circumstance? 2014? Sure, they could have played better. But the guy still averaged 28/7/4 58 TS% against SA if you exclude the game he played 20 minutes to a blow out. If Ibaka doesn't miss the 1st 2 games, it could have gone very differently and they put up a much better fight(Lost in OT in G6) than LeBron/Miami who got destroyed in the Finals.

2016? Were they really expected to win the title going through a 67 and 73 win team without HCA? In Durant's 1st playoffs back after missing an entire season due to injury? Ya, ya, ya. I get it, KD choked in G6. He also scored 29 on 78 TS%, 40 on 55 TS%, and 27 on 65 TS% in the other 3 losses that series. So why focus solely on G6? And are we going to act like that choke job is even remotely comparable to what LeBron did in 2011? Hell, LeBron's choke job vs Boston in 2010 was even worse than Durant's vs Golden State given they were up 2-1, had HCA, and Boston was the inferior team.

Oh, he only has 1 MVP to date? He finished runner up 3 times in 4 years because he was was 21, 23, and 24 going up against peak LeBron. Did LeBron or Jordan have to worry about another player of that caliber stealing MVP's from them during their MVP seasons? In all likelihood, he repeats in 2015 if he wasn't injured, Curry happened in 2016, and then he missed 30 games in 2017. Moving forward, Durant is a frontrunner for the MVP for the foreseeable future and could very easily win 2 or 3 more by the time his career is done.


At the end of the day, Durant is an all timer who's career was often overlooked because he was following in the shadow of a top 2-3 player all time, playing his same position, that was 4 years older than him. Thus when he was a 21, 22, 23, 24 year old putting up historic numbers, there was a 25, 26, 27, 28 year old simply putting up better numbers. And that was incredibly unfair to Durant because he wasn't even in his prime while LeBron was in the heart of his. Who else had to deal with that?

Then when he finally turned a corner in 2014, winning the MVP and being seen as a true rival to LeBron, he had a foot injury that kept him out for the entire 2015 season and he was basically forgotten.

Durant only has 1 MVP but is already 14th all time in MVP shares, and is likely to break the top-10 in that department within the next few years. Kobe has 1 MVP and people have no problem putting him in the top-10.

[lolathon234]

LeBron fans might argue he was in the shadow of prime Duncan and prime Kobe when he was young.

LeBron never had a season like 2013 where he lost an MVP. Durant had one of the best MVP caliber seasons in history and most thought LeBron should have been the unanimous MVP.

OKC lost Harden. Westbrook didn't improve from 2012(24/5/6 54 TS% to 23/5/7 53 TS%). Ibaka's defense fell off a cliff(3.8 BPM in 2012 to 1.9 in 2013). Perkins became the worst center in the NBA.

Despite all of those things, OKC improved as a team going from 58-24 6.44 SRS(3rd) in 2012 to 60-22 9.15 SRS(1st) in 2013. The offense improved, 109.8(2nd) to 112.4(1st), and the defense improved, 103.2(11th) to 102.6(4th).

Durant put up historical numbers playing 81 games
28.1 ppg 7.9 rpg 4.6 apg 1.4 STL 1.3 BLK
51.0/41.6/90.5 splits 64.7 TS%
.291 WSp48 18.9 WinShares 28.3 PER

Despite all of those things, Durant didn't get a single 1st place MVP vote.

LeBron was anointed as the Chosen One before he was even drafted. He was perceived to be the next Jordan and thus the public keyed on him. That narrative has pretty much been perpetual and it didn't matter how great of a player Durant became, the spotlight was always going to be on LeBron given the age discrepancy. Durant's only chance was 2012, but it was unrealistic for a 23 year old to be expected to overcome those odds against an equal level player at his peak. Even if Durant ends up a better than LeBron all time, which is unlikely, you would still expect the veteran in his prime to outplay a player in his 5th season.

Just look at those 2012 playoffs. He swept the 2011 champs/Dirk in round 1. He beat the 2009/2010 champs/Kobe/Gasol in round 2. He beat the 2007 champs/Duncan in the WCF via backdoor sweep, a team that was riding a 16 game winstreak. He averaged 32/8/6 69 TS% in those 4 wins. And then he lost against an all time great Miami Heat team that featured 3 elite perimeter defenders in LeBron, Battier, and Wade. Durant had the most efficient 30 ppg NBA Finals in history(prior to 2017) when he averaged 31 ppg on 65 TS%. And people had the audacity to question his greatness, placing blame on him for the loss. As a 23 year old. Anthony Davis will be 24 years old this coming season. Giannis will be 23. What would be the reaction if they had a run like that this coming season? LeBron at a similar age averaged 22 ppg on 35 TS% in the Finals. Hell LeBron at age 26 averaged 17 ppg on 54 TS%.

So no, I don't think LeBron was facing the same critique that Durant was. The expectations were higher for LeBron, but there was noone to compare him to outside of Jordan and those were historical comparisons. Durant was being compared to that level of player in the present that he had to actually go toe to toe with.

Just like how people brought up the 3-13 record thing as if that wasn't highly biased for LeBron based on the fact that many of those games were a 19-22 year old Durant on a non-contender playing prime LeBron. Let's see how that record looks 5 years from now with another 15-20 games of declining LeBron vs prime Durant, which is an equally unfair comparison. And despite that age gap, Durant held his own statistically vs James and basically played him to a draw H2H from 2011-present.

Additionally, KD's strengths were downplayed and his weaknesses were highlights due to the media's propensity to emphasize the league's best player's skillset. If Durant came 4 years before LeBron, nobody would have said a peep about all around game or ability to play point forward. It would have been Durant is an otherworldly scorer that can score from anywhere which is what separates him from LeBron and why OKC was winning titles while Cleveland falls apart in the playoffs.

[benjamink15]

There's potentially a problem there in limiting the numbers to 10. Curry's could arguably be being slighted

I get that you may not be that old and you may not have been watching basketball that long but just because you haven't seen someone else be the whole reason an offense runs doesn't mean that Curry is the only one who's ever done it.

In no conversation with Michael Jordan or Kevin Durant is Steph Curry being slighted. Please. If anything he's being praised being put in conversations with MJ.

[benjamink15]

This doesn't take on account how Curry elevates the entire of the offense. Every single player on the court with him. Isn't not as black and white as your "calculations" make it out to be.

I don't understand how some of you seem to think that Steph Curry is some never before seen specimen. If MJ is a 10 at offense, curry is probably a 9 so i'm doing him a favour.

"Curry elevates the entire offense" lmao as if he's the only one

[clyde21]

This doesn't take on account how Curry elevates the entire of the offense. Every single player on the court with him. Isn't not as black and white as your "calculations" make it out to be.

I don't understand how some of you seem to think that Steph Curry is some never before seen specimen. If MJ is a 10 at offense, curry is probably a 9 so i'm doing him a favour.

"Curry elevates the entire offense" lmao as if he's the only one

Please, tell me more.