Why is San Antonio considered a small market team...

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Small Metro area but Big women

Warned

[Chinook]

It's 24th based on this estimate (should look at metro area, not just city):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas

So it's 25th, including Toronto. But some of those places don't have teams.

For sports markets I think the even larger combined statistical area is even more relevant than the MSA
I think the Austin metro area should be combined with the San Antonio Area.

If you live in Austin do you support the Spurs?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_statistical_area

I didn't see SA or Austin on this list, and that doesn't make sense. Individually, either metro area is larger than most of the bottom 3/4 of the list. If you were to combine them, you'd probably see something close to Detroit. However, it's extremely debatable as to whether they should be considered the same area. DFW feels like one big city in the sense you can drive through those cities (and Arlington) without knowing you've changed cities. The distance between the two is half that or Austin to SA. Hell, you can literally get plane tickets between them.

Austin is a Spurs city insofar as we support them more than Dallas or Houston. I wouldn't be surprised to see our support wane if SA were to go through a tough stretch, though. San Antonio's Austin's sister, not it's twin. We should be considered part of the Spurs market, but not part of the SA market. The Spurs also have most of South and West Texas, though those definitely aren't part of the SA area.

[MartinToVaught]

San Antonio is considered a small market because, according to Nielsen's rankings, it's the 31st-ranked TV market in America:

https://www.lyonspr.com/latest-nielsen-dma-rankings/

The only smaller markets with NBA teams are Salt Lake City, Milwaukee, Oklahoma City, New Orleans, and Memphis.

[SkyHookFTW]

I think when people use the term "small market team" they are pretty much talking about any team that's not the Lakers, Clippers, Nets, Knicks, Bulls, Heat, Celtics, and to some extent the Rockets and Mavs (and possibly the warriors...ill explain)

As you can see, there are inconsistencies regarding this, as some of these teams are actually in smaller markets than teams not mentioned, and some teams not mentioned are in larger markets. My point is,
I think the term "Small Market Team" is more about the overall desirability of the destination depending on various factors including but not limited to market size. (factors like weather, nightlife, etc)

Now, dont get me wrong, I'm in no way saying those cities are better to live in than other cities. I'm just saying, off the top of my head, that's how that term is being used for reasons other than just the size of the market. It's more like a weird unwritten consensus regarding NBA markets, which is silly considering the size of markets like Pheonix and Toronto. Also, it's pretty funny how the Warriors are all of a sudden not included in the "small market " team list when they are winning, though they have always been a larger market going by actual population. They are just far more desirable now for basketball reasons,and consequentially, people are now realizing how large their market actually is. Of course, the fact that the Bay Area is a great place to live is a factor in attracting players like Durant, but I don't think the "actual" size of the market is the main draw.


TLDR: I'm not sure if many people are either trying to be politically correct by saying "small market" for places they consider "less desirable markets", or if they are actually uninformed regarding the size of certain markets, but I think the terms small market/large market are often used very incorrectly.

I don't think so.

There are 5 Huge Television Markets. Metro areas with the population and resources to support multiple teams in the same sport.
1. NYC
2. LA
3. Chicago
4. DC
5. Bay Area

There are about 6 other markets which I listed earlier that are also large market teams. Things to consider if a team is a large market:
Do they have more than one airport?
Do they support 4 teams?
Do they have more than 6 million people?

People underestimating the Philly market. They are the 4th largest television media market according to media rankings. That market includes most of west and south New Jersey from Trenton to Cape May, about 2.75-3 million people alone. New Jersey is the most densely populated state and a fair part of it is the Philly market.

[Jonny Blaze]

I think when people use the term "small market team" they are pretty much talking about any team that's not the Lakers, Clippers, Nets, Knicks, Bulls, Heat, Celtics, and to some extent the Rockets and Mavs (and possibly the warriors...ill explain)

As you can see, there are inconsistencies regarding this, as some of these teams are actually in smaller markets than teams not mentioned, and some teams not mentioned are in larger markets. My point is,
I think the term "Small Market Team" is more about the overall desirability of the destination depending on various factors including but not limited to market size. (factors like weather, nightlife, etc)

Now, dont get me wrong, I'm in no way saying those cities are better to live in than other cities. I'm just saying, off the top of my head, that's how that term is being used for reasons other than just the size of the market. It's more like a weird unwritten consensus regarding NBA markets, which is silly considering the size of markets like Pheonix and Toronto. Also, it's pretty funny how the Warriors are all of a sudden not included in the "small market " team list when they are winning, though they have always been a larger market going by actual population. They are just far more desirable now for basketball reasons,and consequentially, people are now realizing how large their market actually is. Of course, the fact that the Bay Area is a great place to live is a factor in attracting players like Durant, but I don't think the "actual" size of the market is the main draw.


TLDR: I'm not sure if many people are either trying to be politically correct by saying "small market" for places they consider "less desirable markets", or if they are actually uninformed regarding the size of certain markets, but I think the terms small market/large market are often used very incorrectly.

I don't think so.

There are 5 Huge Television Markets. Metro areas with the population and resources to support multiple teams in the same sport.
1. NYC
2. LA
3. Chicago
4. DC
5. Bay Area

There are about 6 other markets which I listed earlier that are also large market teams. Things to consider if a team is a large market:
Do they have more than one airport?
Do they support 4 teams?
Do they have more than 6 million people?

People underestimating the Philly market. They are the 4th largest television media market according to media rankings. That market includes most of west and south New Jersey from Trenton to Cape May, about 2.75-3 million people alone. New Jersey is the most densely populated state and a fair part of it is the Philly market.

Nobody is underestimating Philly. Philly is the 6-8th largest metro area in the United States. Boston, Dallas and Philly metro are all close to being the same size.

Philly is definitelty a large market.

[Jonny Blaze]

It's 24th based on this estimate (should look at metro area, not just city):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas

So it's 25th, including Toronto. But some of those places don't have teams.

For sports markets I think the even larger combined statistical area is even more relevant than the MSA
I think the Austin metro area should be combined with the San Antonio Area.

If you live in Austin do you support the Spurs?

Austin and San Antonio are two completley separate cities. They are not the same. They are 80 miles apart from each other with mostly county in between them.

Dallas and Fort Worth are the same metro area because one can live in one city and commute to the other for work, shopping, entertainment...etc. Austin and San Antonio are too far apart to do that.

Philly and New York City are also 80 miles apart from each other, are we going to argue that they should be the same metro area?

People in Austin don't root for the Spurs just because they are the closest NBA team. A person from Austin could easily be from Dallas or Houston or anywhere.

[Jonny Blaze]

It's 24th based on this estimate (should look at metro area, not just city):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas

So it's 25th, including Toronto. But some of those places don't have teams.

For sports markets I think the even larger combined statistical area is even more relevant than the MSA
I think the Austin metro area should be combined with the San Antonio Area.

If you live in Austin do you support the Spurs?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_statistical_area

I didn't see SA or Austin on this list, and that doesn't make sense. Individually, either metro area is larger than most of the bottom 3/4 of the list. If you were to combine them, you'd probably see something close to Detroit. However, it's extremely debatable as to whether they should be considered the same area. DFW feels like one big city in the sense you can drive through those cities (and Arlington) without knowing you've changed cities. The distance between the two is half that or Austin to SA. Hell, you can literally get plane tickets between them.

Austin is a Spurs city insofar as we support them more than Dallas or Houston. I wouldn't be surprised to see our support wane if SA were to go through a tough stretch, though. San Antonio's Austin's sister, not it's twin. We should be considered part of the Spurs market, but not part of the SA market. The Spurs also have most of South and West Texas, though those definitely aren't part of the SA area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_San_Antonio

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Austin

According to these San Antonio is the 25th ranked metro area and Austin is 35th. Both cities have around 2 million people in their metro area.

Combined they would be about the size of the Seattle metro area. Still about a million less people than that live in the Detroit metro area.

Austin will be bigger than San Antonio in 20 years. It might be bigger during the next census.

[Baseline Runner]

...when they are the 7th largest city in the US by population?

Side note: just visited Austin this weekend for a Bachelor's party...awesome city

City populations are irrelevant because some cities cover a huge land area and include their suburbs inside the city area while others like Cleveland, Boston, Miami and San Francisco don't. Cleveland is bigger than San Antonio in metro population for example. Boston has 1/2 the population inside the city area but three times as much in the metro area.

[Seabass11]

So I guess if you include metro areas into market size...why stop there? Cleveland is the only NBA team in the state of Ohio which means its fan base and potential market spread to Akron (duh), Youngstown, Canton, Columbus and even Cincy. Shouldn't this be factored in when talking about market size of NBA TEAMS?

IMO there should be a difference in the market size with regards to a shoe/clothing store versus the market size of a team where your competition is other teams...much of which is dictated by location

On the other hand, California is split between LAL, LAC, SAC and GS so their market size should be split IMO. The market size of the Knicks should not include the entire metro area of NYC bc they have to split it with the Nets...Same goes for LA

[HotelVitale]

People underestimating the Philly market. They are the 4th largest television media market according to media rankings. That market includes most of west and south New Jersey from Trenton to Cape May, about 2.75-3 million people alone. New Jersey is the most densely populated state and a fair part of it is the Philly market.

You're right on most of this, but south Jersey isn't dense at all and that 'densest state' stat doesn't help explain things. Jersey's dense because the northeast quarter of it is a giant contiguous metro area, but South Jersey's mostly straight-up rural (I think Vineland's the biggest city and it aint much).

But you're right that Philly's Jersey Burbs (the Camden and Cherry Hill belt) plus and all the smaller towns and coast areas definitely follow Philly sports and contribute to the market.

[Seabass11]

I guess the question is, when talking about market size...are we talking about the CITY/metro area or the potential market size of the TEAM. The Cavs can realistically claim the entire state of Ohio as their "market" since they don't have any other teams to compete with. Why isn't this factored in when talking about large/small market teams?

[G35]

Lived in SA for five years, I have a house there...before I lived there I really didn't have any thoughts on it. Now this is my perception:

- Land wise its huge and has several looping freeways e.g. 410, 1604 but the traffic sucks and the way they make you have to go on roundabouts to get anywhere is not efficient. The drivers are the worst imo, they have no shame going from the left lane to an exit with no warning, and there is always some construction going on.

- Some of the best eating is one of the reasons its residents are on the heavier side; there are restaurants that fit every category but it does lean to Mexican food. One disappointment I have is in the BBQ...I grew up thinking BBQ was primarily ribs but its more tri-tip/chicken based. My only advice is do not go to Bob Millers and Rudy's is just ok.

- the downtown is not bad, the big attraction is the Riverwalk and you should go once but I would surmise most locals avoid it once you have been there a few times. Lots of restaurants, clubs, a good place to take people visiting but its obviously very touristy.

- SA also does not have the skyline that you imagine when you think of a major market; it is more of a big town imo than anything. However, it does have a major military presence with multiple military installations and there is a lot of money being invested within the city.

- there is not much else besides the Spurs on a national scale, talk radio is dominated the Spurs and Cowboys. I rarely heard anything about the Rockets, Mavericks, Texans, Rangers, Astros and if you happen to walk into a WalMart you won't seen anything but Spurs and Cowboys gear.

Overall, I like the city, it gets way too hot in the summer, with crazy storms that come and go and the city can flood if the rain is persistent, but I like that it provided lots of festivals for the community. The annual rodeo, strawberry festival, garlic festival, Cajun/crawfish festival, etc. I would say it is more family oriented compared to most major markets.......

[Texas_Lakers]

I give it 5-8 years before SA and Austin combine into one dense populated area, kind of like the OC was to LA back in the 70's -80's. Sad, I moved here from LA because I wanted the small-town feel of it, oh well can't keep people from moving here from all over.

If you live in Texas that will not happen. Houston, Dallas, Austin, San Antonio are all there own cities with things to do with airports as well. It's like Sacramento, Oakland, San Jose, San Fran being combined or LA and San Diego being combined.

So to your logic, Dallas / Ft. Worth will not happen?

[Texas_Lakers]

I give it 5-8 years before SA and Austin combine into one dense populated area, kind of like the OC was to LA back in the 70's -80's. Sad, I moved here from LA because I wanted the small-town feel of it, oh well can't keep people from moving here from all over.

If you live in Texas that will not happen. Houston, Dallas, Austin, San Antonio are all there own cities with things to do with airports as well. It's like Sacramento, Oakland, San Jose, San Fran being combined or LA and San Diego being combined.

Texas doesn't have any say in whether or not it happens. Combining two areas is determined social and economic integration including commuting trends between the regions.

Exactly, I just gave him the Dallas / Forth Worth metro as an example to his flawed logic.

[Texas_Lakers]

It's 24th based on this estimate (should look at metro area, not just city):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas

So it's 25th, including Toronto. But some of those places don't have teams.

For sports markets I think the even larger combined statistical area is even more relevant than the MSA
I think the Austin metro area should be combined with the San Antonio Area.

If you live in Austin do you support the Spurs?

Austin and San Antonio are two completley separate cities. They are not the same. They are 80 miles apart from each other with mostly county in between them.

Dallas and Fort Worth are the same metro area because one can live in one city and commute to the other for work, shopping, entertainment...etc. Austin and San Antonio are too far apart to do that.

Philly and New York City are also 80 miles apart from each other, are we going to argue that they should be the same metro area?

People in Austin don't root for the Spurs just because they are the closest NBA team. A person from Austin could easily be from Dallas or Houston or anywhere.

Have you driven on IH-35 from San Antonio to Austin? I make that drive on a monthly basis and I can tell you, it's NOT just country side on the side of the road between them, Schertz, Cibolo, New Braunfels, San Marcos, Buda among other small towns in-between are closing the gap on being a mostly populated area between Austin and San Antonio, in fact is one the fastest growing areas in the US.

[bwgood77]

For sports markets I think the even larger combined statistical area is even more relevant than the MSA
I think the Austin metro area should be combined with the San Antonio Area.

If you live in Austin do you support the Spurs?

Austin and San Antonio are two completley separate cities. They are not the same. They are 80 miles apart from each other with mostly county in between them.

Dallas and Fort Worth are the same metro area because one can live in one city and commute to the other for work, shopping, entertainment...etc. Austin and San Antonio are too far apart to do that.

Philly and New York City are also 80 miles apart from each other, are we going to argue that they should be the same metro area?

People in Austin don't root for the Spurs just because they are the closest NBA team. A person from Austin could easily be from Dallas or Houston or anywhere.

Have you driven on IH-35 from San Antonio to Austin? I make that drive on a monthly basis and I can tell you, it's NOT just country side on the side of the road between them, Schertz, Cibolo, New Braunfels, San Marcos, Buda among other small towns in-between are closing the gap on being a mostly populated area between Austin and San Antonio, in fact is one the fastest growing areas in the US.

Yes, there is barely any real country side at all. I used to make the drive daily.

[Wadzup]

I don't think so.

There are 5 Huge Television Markets. Metro areas with the population and resources to support multiple teams in the same sport.
1. NYC
2. LA
3. Chicago
4. DC
5. Bay Area

There are about 6 other markets which I listed earlier that are also large market teams. Things to consider if a team is a large market:
Do they have more than one airport?
Do they support 4 teams?
Do they have more than 6 million people?

Which is my point. Of course I understand that some markets are larger than others. I just don't think market size matters as much as people would like to think, and that the terminlogy is often used incorrectly.

A great example of my point is in your post: how often do you see DC referred to as a huge market team in typical conversations, when it's a gigantic market. Yet I've seen a relatively small market like Miami constantly being referred to as a large market. Bosh and Lebron probably started this whole "good players leave small markets to big markets" narrative, despite Toronto having a significantly larger population than Miami, and Cleveland being only marginally smaller in terms of population.

Dude....you do not get it. You can't compare a cities proper population. You have to account for the entire metropolotian region including suburbs.

Miami is a large market.
https://www.emporis.com/city/101321/miami-fl-usa

There are 5.4 Million people in South Florida. Ft Lauderdale and Miami both have their own international airports. There is nothing small market about Miami.

Toronto Metro area is roughly the same as South Florida which is 5.6 million.
https://www.emporis.com/city/100993/toronto-canada

Cleveland is 2.8 million people in its metro area. Its about half the population of South Florida. That is not "marginally smaller" That is a significant population difference.
https://www.emporis.com/city/101311/cleveland-oh-usa

Cleveland's metro area is significantly smaller, but that's because there are FOUR metropolitan areas in Northeast Ohio with populations of 400,000 or more all within 60 miles of each other (Cleveland/Akron/Canton/Youngstown), and a fifth smaller metro (Mansfield ... 125,000). I don't believe any other region in the US has that many metros in that close of proximity.

For example, Northeast Ohio (which is a more accurate way to look at the Cavs' home market) has a population of 4.3 million people. That is nearly the same size as the Phoenix metropolitan area (4.6 million).

In terms of land area:

Phoenix metropolitan area: 14,000 square miles
Northeast Ohio: 8,500 square miles

So, despite being broken into five different "metros," Northeast Ohio is nearly half as small as metro Phoenix land-wise, with essentially the same population (though Phoenix's population is booming where Northeast Ohio is stagnant).

Overall, yeah, Northeast Ohio is still smaller than South Florida or Toronto, but its not as wide of a margin as the numbers you posted indicate.

Plus, you could really count the entire state as the Cavs' market since they are the only NBA team in Ohio and their "local" games are aired statewide on FoxSports Ohio. For example, in Columbus, the Cavs pull in better TV numbers than the hometown Blue Jackets (NHL); and Columbus has posted the highest NBA finals ratings outside of the Bay Area or Cleveland the past three years. ... Cincinnati, IIR, has also posted some of the top NBA finals ratings as well the past three years.

[Baseline Runner]

So I guess if you include metro areas into market size...why stop there? Cleveland is the only NBA team in the state of Ohio which means its fan base and potential market spread to Akron (duh), Youngstown, Canton, Columbus and even Cincy. Shouldn't this be factored in when talking about market size of NBA TEAMS?

IMO there should be a difference in the market size with regards to a shoe/clothing store versus the market size of a team where your competition is other teams...much of which is dictated by location

On the other hand, California is split between LAL, LAC, SAC and GS so their market size should be split IMO. The market size of the Knicks should not include the entire metro area of NYC bc they have to split it with the Nets...Same goes for LA

Metro represents a city. A State doesn't. People in Cincinnatti have nothing in common with the people in Cleveland. They don't work in Cleveland, they dont' watch Cleveland TV, identify with Cleveland sports, many have never even been there and vice versa. Have you ever met a Clevelander that gives a **** about the Reds or Bengals? Pittsburgh, Toronto and Detroit are all closer to Cleveland than Cincinnati (**** I can't even spell the place correctly).

City lines and state lines are arbitrary lines drawn in the sand. Metro areas are actually very representive of real things and real places. The people in the Cleveland metro and suburbs identify with Cleveland, they work, shop, play, have friends and family throughout the area. Even the people of Akron do because it is not very far away. People of Youngstown, Toledo, or Columbus do not or only to a very small degree.

[Baseline Runner]

Yes, there is barely any real country side at all. I used to make the drive daily.

Just because one road between the two cities is fairly built up doesn't make that a continguous metro area. 80 miles is really too far apart to be considered the same city. I bet if you went a mile or two off that road you are in some deep country. Akron for instance is only 35 miles from Cleveland and that place is barely considered apart of the same metro area, and it is built up and connected with lots of suburbs and people work and commute from both places quite heavily.

[Chinook]

Yes, there is barely any real country side at all. I used to make the drive daily.

Just because one road between the two cities is fairly built up doesn't make that a continguous metro area. 80 miles is really too far apart to be considered the same city. I bet if you went a mile or two off that road you are in some deep country. Akron for instance is only 35 miles from Cleveland and that place is barely considered apart of the same metro area, and it is built up and connected with lots of suburbs and people work and commute from both places quite heavily.

I agree with this. The Austin/SA I-35 corridor is getting built up, but that's from two cities individually expanding, not combining. Austin's northward growth is going on much faster right now. That 84-mile gap is just too far for any sort of union to happen. Unless there's some futuristic railway coming soon, it won't ever be more than a novelty for people to commute between cities for work daily (yes, I'm sure all of us in Cen-Tex know someone who has done it). It's more likely that one of the Austin suburbs (Round Rock) will grow into a legit Fort Worth--like city than for SA and Austin to become homogeneous.