Will the "He joined a 73 win team" stigma ever go away from KD?

[Prez]

People said that LeBron would never be considered great after he went to Miami.

So I'm going to say that it'll probably go away in a few years.

It's not the same thing though. The Heat went .500 over LeBron's four seasons there. The Warriors went 18-3 without KD but the original big 3, including winning their last 15 games straight without KD. LeBron's super team was a super team because of LeBron. Durant's super team was a super team before he got there.

The level of vitriol and bitterness may be similar but the actual circumstances of winning aren't.

No, it's not the same thing. But.....people still hated LeBron for teaming up with Wade and Bosh in the most obnoxious way possible. The amount of vitriol was much worse in LeBron's case than Durant's. And just 7 years later, all of LeBron's sins have been forgiven by those same people. And Kobe was hated for driving away Shaq and being the embodiment of all that was wrong with basketball. Fast-forward a decade and he's a beloved figure.

All 3 of those players have been hated for very different reasons, and two of them have been accepted by the public after enough time has passed. I don't see why the same will happen for Durant in a few years.

But the context of the results matters. Like how things actually played out and how they won matters and contributes a lot to how opinions change over time.

In the two rings LeBron won in Miami, the teams were just not nearly as stacked as people hyped them up to be and certainly not near the post-Durant decision Warriors. Then he came back and brought a title to Cleveland in one of the greatest accomplishments in NBA history with that comeback. Kobe won back to back rings on Lakers teams that were built from the ground up around him, and were very talented but nothing otherworldly.

Both Kobe and LeBron did things that forced people to change their opinions of them. Durant can, but it's far from a guarantee that he will.

[michaelm]

Clearly there are current posters on the RealGM General Board who will never forget, but imo the view of those posters is unlikely to determine how posterity views Durant, particularly if he wins multiple titles and multiple FMVP awards, and is seen historically to have operated within an era of super teams which (again imo) is likely. Ironically the best thing LeBron could do imo if his main objective was to downgrade Durant's legacy (which obviously isn't the case) is to stay at Cleveland even if he doesn't win any more titles. If LeBron makes a third move as seems more likely just now it is hard for me to see how the focus in 25 years is going to be on Durant making a single super team move if the 2nd best player in NBA history has made 3 such moves.

[Kswiss]

I don't think it helps or hurts him. He had already won an MVP so it's not like people were sleeping on him as a player. I think NBA fans were a little dissapointed he took the easy way out and joined an all-time great team instead of trying to compete against them. However not everyone is cut from the MJ/Kobe/Lebron cloth

[TheDavinciCHODE]

Depends.

Which is why using titles as such an important metric of measuring players is bs.

Is Durant a better player? Did he magically become more skilled?

No. He was surrounded by better talent and in a better system.




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[spicy6]

It wont and shouldnt. Youre taught to be competitve in sports, not take the easy way out. Joining the team that beat you, a 73 win team, a team you were up 3-1 against, a team with 3 other all stars is putrid no matter how you look at it.

[karkinos]

i can't wait for the 30 for 30 when they interview wb and kd to get both opinions of the situation

[JonBones]

I don't think so, I know it won't to me. Just my opinion, Cavs won the championship in like the last minute or 2 of game 7. Barnes didn't show up that series, I understand, however GSW didn't need a player of Durants caliber to replace Barnes to win the championship, heck, if Barnes even played a little better that series they would have taken it. I get that he showed up in the finals, big time, however what does that really mean if they didn't NEED you to win. I am not upset at GSW, they did what they had to, give themselves the best chance at a ring. Durant may put up the better numbers, but Curry so far has been the engine of the team.

I also see the argument being made sometimes that Cavs were going to be favored this year before the Durant acquisition because Lebron is the best player in the league, and since they came back from 3-1, they must've figured out how to beat them every time. I repeat, the last game was won in the final minutes or 2, great teams adjust, unlike the other games which were thorough blowouts.

HOWEVER, if he wins a ring on a different team, that wasn't already favored to win the championship, it goes away to me. It's kind of like Lebron & his Miami rings, yeah they're nice, but that Cleveland one was the one that IMO makes him a legend. Durant doesn't have to go back to OKC, but he's gotta join a different team and win for ME personally to think of him as a legend, not just the most amazing scorer.

[Kurosawa0]

Comparing KD's situation to LeBron's in Miami is a bit off. LeBron did try to form a superteam in Miami, but it kind of failed. Bosh was good, but not a superstar and Wade couldn't stay healthy. LeBron had to be superhuman to win in 2012 & 2013. KD didn't. The Warriors cruised unlike almost any team in history.

LeBron had to come up huge in must-win games against Indy and Boston in that 2012 run. Durant put up great numbers in this run for the Warriors, but it was under zero pressure. There was not a single must-win game for the Warriors this season.

If that continues I don't think we'll ever see Kevin Durant get the credit for winning the way LeBron has or if KD had won with OKC.

I think we'll look at KD winning multiple rings as more about the collection of talent the Warriors have than for him individually. Which is honestly fair. As great as KD is, he's no LeBron. He's more of a Drexler than an MJ.

[LeMasta]

I don't know. But maybe people will realize that GSW were a potential dynasty with their core before KD even joined. Possibly when someone realizes that KD actually has less rings than Steph, Dray and Klay assuming KD doesn't win a ring somewhere else

[bstein14]

I think it for sure keeps him out of the all-time great top 15 players even if he wins 4 or 5 titles. I think if he could have won a few in OKC or another not all-time great team that was already assembled he could have gotten into the conversation of top 15.

[Alonzo_Morning]

Nah

[lolathon234]

The 2010 Heat were a 50ish win team with Wade and the following supporting cast.
Michael Beasley 14.8/6.4/1.3 50.5 TS% -6.5 BPM
Jermaine O'Neal 13.6/6.9/1.3 56.3 TS% -7.7 BPM
Udonis Haslem 9.9/8.1/0.7 53.8 TS% -6.9 BPM
Quentin Richardson 8.9/4.9/1.2 57.2 TS% 0.6 BPM
Mario Chalmers 7.1/1.8/3.4 51.9 TS% -2.2 BPM
Carlos Arroyo 6.1/1.8/3.1 52.9 TS% -3.0 BPM
Dorrell Wright 7.1/3.3/1.3 56.7 TS% -3.9 BPM
Joel Anthony 2.7/3.2/0.3 54.6 TS% 3.0 BPM

How many games do the 2010 Heat win if you make the following adjustments.
CUT: Beasley, O'Neal, Richardson, Arroyo
Add:
2010 Chris Bosh 24.0/10.8/2.4 59.2 TS% 3.7 BPM
2012 Ray Allen 14.2/3.1/2.4 60.7 TS% 2.6 BPM
2011 Shane Battier 7.6/4.5/2.3 56.7 TS% 2.5 BPM
2010 Mike Miller 10.9/6.2/3.9 62.3 TS% 2.0 BPM
2012 Chris Andersen 5.3/4.6 1.4 BLK 58.3 TS% 1.4 BPM

Mario Chalmers is 26 years old instead of 23, 8.6/2.2/3.5 57.6 TS% 1.1 BPM

That team very likely wins the 2010 NBA title. Period.

Durant 2017
Playoffs: 28.5 ppg 7.9 rpg 4.3 ast 2.5 TOV 68.3 TS% 35.5 MPG
Finals: 35.2 ppg 8.2 rpg 5.4 apg 2.2 TOV 69.8 TS% 39.8 MPG

Durant's was +33 with Durant on the floor, +1 with him off. Net: +32
GS excl. Durant shot 56.1 TS%, Durant was +13.7 TS% over team average

LeBron 2011
Playoffs: 23.7 ppg 8.4 rpg 5.9 apg 3.1 TOV 56.3 TS% 43.9 MPG
Finals: 17.8 ppg 7.2 rpg 6.8 apg 3.3 TOV 54.1 TS% 43.7 MPG

Miami was -36 with LeBron on the floor, +22 with him off. NET: -58
Miami excl. LeBron shot 53.9 TS%, LeBron was +0.2 TS% above team average

LeBron 2012
Playoffs: 30.3 ppg 9.7 rpg 5.6 apg 3.5 TOV 57.6 TS% 42.7 MPG
Finals: 28.6 ppg 10.2 rpg 7.4 apg 3.8 TOV 55.8 TS% 44.1 MPG

Miami was +31 with LeBron on the floor, -11 with him off. Net: +42
Miami exc. LeBron shot 58.1 TS%, LeBron was -2.3 TS% below team average

LeBron 2013
Playoffs: 25.9 ppg 8.4 rpg 6.6 apg 3.0 TOV 58.8 TS% 41.8 MPG
Finals: 25.3 ppg 10.9 rpg 7.0 apg 2.6 TOV 52.9 TS% 43.0 MPG

Miami was +0 with LeBron on the floor, -5 with him off. Net: +5
Miami excl. LeBron shot 55.1 TS%, LeBron was -2.2 TS% below team average


LeBron 2014
Playoffs: 27.4 ppg 7.1 rpg 4.8 apg 3.1 TOV 66.8 TS% 38.2 MPG
Finals: 28.2 ppg 7.8 rpg 4.0 apg 3.8 TOV 67.9 TS% 37.8 MPG

Miami was -47 with LeBron on the floor, -23 with him off. Net: -24
Miami excl. LeBron shot 53.3 TS%, LeBron was +14.6 TS% above team average

[og15]

I already forgot

[RCM88x]

I feel like it has already.

[-G-]

Yes, if he keeps winning titles. Winning always washes away stigmas.

[clyde21]

Spoiler:

The 2010 Heat were a 50ish win team with Wade and the following supporting cast.
Michael Beasley 14.8/6.4/1.3 50.5 TS% -6.5 BPM
Jermaine O'Neal 13.6/6.9/1.3 56.3 TS% -7.7 BPM
Udonis Haslem 9.9/8.1/0.7 53.8 TS% -6.9 BPM
Quentin Richardson 8.9/4.9/1.2 57.2 TS% 0.6 BPM
Mario Chalmers 7.1/1.8/3.4 51.9 TS% -2.2 BPM
Carlos Arroyo 6.1/1.8/3.1 52.9 TS% -3.0 BPM
Dorrell Wright 7.1/3.3/1.3 56.7 TS% -3.9 BPM
Joel Anthony 2.7/3.2/0.3 54.6 TS% 3.0 BPM

How many games do the 2010 Heat win if you make the following adjustments.
CUT: Beasley, O'Neal, Richardson, Arroyo
Add:
2010 Chris Bosh 24.0/10.8/2.4 59.2 TS% 3.7 BPM
2012 Ray Allen 14.2/3.1/2.4 60.7 TS% 2.6 BPM
2011 Shane Battier 7.6/4.5/2.3 56.7 TS% 2.5 BPM
2010 Mike Miller 10.9/6.2/3.9 62.3 TS% 2.0 BPM
2012 Chris Andersen 5.3/4.6 1.4 BLK 58.3 TS% 1.4 BPM

Mario Chalmers is 26 years old instead of 23, 8.6/2.2/3.5 57.6 TS% 1.1 BPM

That team very likely wins the 2010 NBA title. Period.

Durant 2017
Playoffs: 28.5 ppg 7.9 rpg 4.3 ast 2.5 TOV 68.3 TS% 35.5 MPG
Finals: 35.2 ppg 8.2 rpg 5.4 apg 2.2 TOV 69.8 TS% 39.8 MPG

Durant's was +33 with Durant on the floor, +1 with him off. Net: +32
GS excl. Durant shot 56.1 TS%, Durant was +13.7 TS% over team average

LeBron 2011
Playoffs: 23.7 ppg 8.4 rpg 5.9 apg 3.1 TOV 56.3 TS% 43.9 MPG
Finals: 17.8 ppg 7.2 rpg 6.8 apg 3.3 TOV 54.1 TS% 43.7 MPG

Miami was -36 with LeBron on the floor, +22 with him off. NET: -58
Miami excl. LeBron shot 53.9 TS%, LeBron was +0.2 TS% above team average

LeBron 2012
Playoffs: 30.3 ppg 9.7 rpg 5.6 apg 3.5 TOV 57.6 TS% 42.7 MPG
Finals: 28.6 ppg 10.2 rpg 7.4 apg 3.8 TOV 55.8 TS% 44.1 MPG

Miami was +31 with LeBron on the floor, -11 with him off. Net: +42
Miami exc. LeBron shot 58.1 TS%, LeBron was -2.3 TS% below team average

LeBron 2013
Playoffs: 25.9 ppg 8.4 rpg 6.6 apg 3.0 TOV 58.8 TS% 41.8 MPG
Finals: 25.3 ppg 10.9 rpg 7.0 apg 2.6 TOV 52.9 TS% 43.0 MPG

Miami was +0 with LeBron on the floor, -5 with him off. Net: +5
Miami excl. LeBron shot 55.1 TS%, LeBron was -2.2 TS% below team average


LeBron 2014

Playoffs: 27.4 ppg 7.1 rpg 4.8 apg 3.1 TOV 66.8 TS% 38.2 MPG
Finals: 28.2 ppg 7.8 rpg 4.0 apg 3.8 TOV 67.9 TS% 37.8 MPG

Miami was -47 with LeBron on the floor, -23 with him off. Net: -24
Miami excl. LeBron shot 53.3 TS%, LeBron was +14.6 TS% above team average

This.

The idea that LeBron "joined a .500 team" is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

[Yoshun]

Only current, hard core NBA fans are going to remember this. All people are going to know is he will have big stats and probably a few titles.

[Goudelock]

It's not the same thing though. The Heat went .500 over LeBron's four seasons there. The Warriors went 18-3 without KD but the original big 3, including winning their last 15 games straight without KD. LeBron's super team was a super team because of LeBron. Durant's super team was a super team before he got there.

The level of vitriol and bitterness may be similar but the actual circumstances of winning aren't.

No, it's not the same thing. But.....people still hated LeBron for teaming up with Wade and Bosh in the most obnoxious way possible. The amount of vitriol was much worse in LeBron's case than Durant's. And just 7 years later, all of LeBron's sins have been forgiven by those same people. And Kobe was hated for driving away Shaq and being the embodiment of all that was wrong with basketball. Fast-forward a decade and he's a beloved figure.

All 3 of those players have been hated for very different reasons, and two of them have been accepted by the public after enough time has passed. I don't see why the same will happen for Durant in a few years.

But the context of the results matters. Like how things actually played out and how they won matters and contributes a lot to how opinions change over time.

In the two rings LeBron won in Miami, the teams were just not nearly as stacked as people hyped them up to be and certainly not near the post-Durant decision Warriors. Then he came back and brought a title to Cleveland in one of the greatest accomplishments in NBA history with that comeback. Kobe won back to back rings on Lakers teams that were built from the ground up around him, and were very talented but nothing otherworldly.

Both Kobe and LeBron did things that forced people to change their opinions of them. Durant can, but it's far from a guarantee that he will.

I think that we mostly agree tbh. What I'm trying to get at is that, at one point, people made super-hyperbolic statements about both players when it came to their legacy. Then things played out and all was forgiven. But should that affect how people feel about those past events and statements?

Here's an example so I can try to explain what I'm getting at. Let's say that this season, Curry, Green, and Igoudala all blow out their knees during the first game. Then Durant and Thompson will the Warriors to the playoffs and all the way to a title. Would that mean that Durant is no longer a weak player, since he proved that he could win without a stacked team? In my eyes, it shouldn't change how you perceive Durant's original move to Golden State. He still joined a stacked team in hopes of winning rings.

Just like LeBron went to Miami in hopes of winning easy rings, and Kobe driving Shaq out of town (although I'd debate how much of it was Kobe's fault....), people would still be justified in their original critcism. They can't know the future, after all.

PS: Sorry for the long rant/ramble.

[dive135]

If GS continues at a level far above every other team where a glorified role player could achieve the same results, probably not.


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[HornetsFan29]

after he wins 3-4 titles with the warriors then he goes back to okc and wins them a title like Lebron did for Cleveland and everything forgiving and KD will forever be a hero in OKC.