Lebron's road to all his Finals

[xfactor]

GS won 73 games before Durant joined them. The Heat were eliminated in the first round, in the East, before LBJ joined them. The Cavs were a lottery team. The situations aren't comparable and no amount of false comparisons will change that.

So if Chris Bosh wasn't going to sign with Heat in 2010, do you think Lebron will still run to South Beach and play with Wade?

Also, if PG/Westbrook/Lebron do sign with the Lakers next year and then trade Lonzo Ball for some established star, are they not stacking the deck? Or are they a lottery team that Lebron single handily turned around?

How do we know what any one of them were going to do? It is obvious the three of them colluded to go to Miami to stack the deck in their favor. It doesn't matter about the what if because that is what happened.

Also, I do not want Lebron coming to LA. Period. I don't want them to trade Lonzo Ball. I'm not a fan of these...basically get rich quick pyramid schemes...I would rather the Lakers build their team organically like the Warriors did. It has a better chance of long term success...as you can see with these Lebron built teams they have a window of 3-4 years and they fall apart.

Also, I don't know why people keep bringing up the 73 win Warriors...as if that means anything...when you don't win the whole thing your win total doesn't mean much either. The Warriors last year won 67 games but all CLE fans want to say is, "Durant joined a 73 win team." Well it didn't help them win any more regular season games now did it. All that matters is if you take home the ring at the end.

People want it so easy nowadays, no one wants to build anything......

+1. I've tired to emphasize the bolded above, and it is astounding the lack of collective comprehension regarding this simple fact.

[RIP Kobe]

Lebron beat a 73 win team in the Finals I think he will live.

Sending an email to Adam silver so Green gets suspended doesn’t count.

Also, Kyrie won game 7.

[jbk1234]

So if Chris Bosh wasn't going to sign with Heat in 2010, do you think Lebron will still run to South Beach and play with Wade?

Also, if PG/Westbrook/Lebron do sign with the Lakers next year and then trade Lonzo Ball for some established star, are they not stacking the deck? Or are they a lottery team that Lebron single handily turned around?

How do we know what any one of them were going to do? It is obvious the three of them colluded to go to Miami to stack the deck in their favor. It doesn't matter about the what if because that is what happened.

Also, I do not want Lebron coming to LA. Period. I don't want them to trade Lonzo Ball. I'm not a fan of these...basically get rich quick pyramid schemes...I would rather the Lakers build their team organically like the Warriors did. It has a better chance of long term success...as you can see with these Lebron built teams they have a window of 3-4 years and they fall apart.

Also, I don't know why people keep bringing up the 73 win Warriors...as if that means anything...when you don't win the whole thing your win total doesn't mean much either. The Warriors last year won 67 games but all CLE fans want to say is, "Durant joined a 73 win team." Well it didn't help them win any more regular season games now did it. All that matters is if you take home the ring at the end.

People want it so easy nowadays, no one wants to build anything......

+1. I've tired to emphasize the bolded above, and it is astounding the lack of collective comprehension regarding this simple fact.

Take the regular season win total out of it (people point to it b/c it's the NBA record). The Warriors had been to the Finals two years in a row, won one, and lost one in 7 games. Then a top 3 player walked onto the team.

[Wallace_Wallace]

Lebron beat a 73 win team in the Finals I think he will live.

Sending an email to Adam silver so Green gets suspended doesn’t count.

Also, Kyrie won game 7.

Okay maybe not THAT extreme, I'm sure LeBron leading 5 majority stats have something to do with it.

LeBron the player is great, but LeBron the GM is not. LeBron should not be holding Cleveland Cavs hostage to everything. JR Smith, Tristan Thompson, James Jones and Channing Frye should not have been on the roster if not for LeBron.

[spacemonkey]

Lebron beat a 73 win team in the Finals I think he will live.

Sending an email to Adam silver so Green gets suspended doesn’t count.

Also, Kyrie won game 7.

This is an example of a poster outing his own bias.

Go back and watch the final 5 minutes of the finals. Kyrie hit the shot, but Bron made it possible for that shot to be a game winner.

[Dupp]

Lebron beat a 73 win team in the Finals I think he will live.

Sending an email to Adam silver so Green gets suspended doesn’t count.

Also, Kyrie won game 7.

This is an example of a poster outing his own bias.

Go back and watch the final 5 minutes of the finals. Kyrie hit the shot, but Bron made it possible for that shot to be a game winner.

Can't be bothered looking it up but I'm pretty sure Lebron scored 11 points in the fourth quarter of game 7... Kyrie 3 points.. everyone else was like 3 points and under to.

[Vibranium]

Not shocked a Warriors fan started this thread although I was expecting a Lakers fan.

[makubesu]

How can someone be considered a top fifty player in their prime if they lose to Lebron before the finals for seven straight years? There's something very circular about this.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[Jedi32]

You can only play who's in front of you

[G35]

How do we know what any one of them were going to do? It is obvious the three of them colluded to go to Miami to stack the deck in their favor. It doesn't matter about the what if because that is what happened.

Also, I do not want Lebron coming to LA. Period. I don't want them to trade Lonzo Ball. I'm not a fan of these...basically get rich quick pyramid schemes...I would rather the Lakers build their team organically like the Warriors did. It has a better chance of long term success...as you can see with these Lebron built teams they have a window of 3-4 years and they fall apart.

Also, I don't know why people keep bringing up the 73 win Warriors...as if that means anything...when you don't win the whole thing your win total doesn't mean much either. The Warriors last year won 67 games but all CLE fans want to say is, "Durant joined a 73 win team." Well it didn't help them win any more regular season games now did it. All that matters is if you take home the ring at the end.

People want it so easy nowadays, no one wants to build anything......

I agree with some of what you wrote but this is ridiculous. You can name on one hand the amount of teams that have had the excellence of the 2011-2014 Heat or the 2015-2018 Cavs. How many teams have had longer than a 4 year championship window? It hardly ever happens.

Beyond that, GSW did build. They built an amazing team, that fits together and has a great playing atmopshere. They did what every franchise should aspire to do.

I do agree that Lebron has brought unprecedented success to the places he has gone to. MIA and CLE were dominant teams during those periods without a doubt. However, the disclaimer I would put on it is that there was not much competition in the EC.

If Lebron decides to come out West, there is zero chance he goes to multiple finals consecutively. The difference in the West is that you do not get a free pass, Durant was not needed for the Warriors just for CLE. It weakened one of their main competitors in OKC and you still have the Spurs and to a lesser degree the Rockets. Even if Lebron goes to LA and WB/George follow him, they would not be a lock to make it to the finals. The Warriors built not only a cohesive team, but an identity that is bigger than the sum of their individual parts.

I don't think anyone could have predicted the success of the Warriors but if five years ago I had to predict from which conference an unknown team will come along and become a dynasty there would be no doubt in my mind it would come from the West. I think the level of competition has raised the standard of the entire conference because the bar is so high. I know the Warriors look unbeatable right now, but I have no doubt that there will be teams in the West that will challenge them.

From the Lakers to the Spurs to the Mavericks and now to the Warriors there is no one player that can say they would be able to dominate this conference.......

[The4thHorseman]

GS won 73 games before Durant joined them. The Heat were eliminated in the first round, in the East, before LBJ joined them. The Cavs were a lottery team. The situations aren't comparable and no amount of false comparisons will change that.

So if Chris Bosh wasn't going to sign with Heat in 2010, do you think Lebron will still run to South Beach and play with Wade?

Also, if PG/Westbrook/Lebron do sign with the Lakers next year and then trade Lonzo Ball for some established star, are they not stacking the deck? Or are they a lottery team that Lebron single handily turned around?

How do we know what any one of them were going to do? It is obvious the three of them colluded to go to Miami to stack the deck in their favor. It doesn't matter about the what if because that is what happened.

Also, I do not want Lebron coming to LA. Period. I don't want them to trade Lonzo Ball. I'm not a fan of these...basically get rich quick pyramid schemes...I would rather the Lakers build their team organically like the Warriors did. It has a better chance of long term success...as you can see with these Lebron built teams they have a window of 3-4 years and they fall apart.

Also, I don't know why people keep bringing up the 73 win Warriors...as if that means anything...when you don't win the whole thing your win total doesn't mean much either. The Warriors last year won 67 games but all CLE fans want to say is, "Durant joined a 73 win team." Well it didn't help them win any more regular season games now did it. All that matters is if you take home the ring at the end.

People want it so easy nowadays, no one wants to build anything......

LeBron tried to persuade Bosh to sign with Cleveland in 2010. Raps and Cavs tried to work out a trade

http://www.cleveland.com/ohio-sports-blog/index.ssf/2010/07/lebron_james_and_chris_bosh_co.html

But yeah, the 3 colluded long before to go to Miami.


Nowadays?? Lakers fan forgetting about the 96-97 draft when talking about players avoiding to try to build a team??

Or Magic's quote during the 1991 Finals??

CHICAGO — Magic Johnson would have returned to Michigan State rather than play for the Chicago Bulls.

"I'd have stayed in school," he said here Tuesday, standing alone outside Gate 3 1/2 of Chicago Stadium, the house that could have been his. "A coin toss changed the course of my whole life."

"I wouldn't have played here," Johnson said on the eve of Game 2 of the NBA finals between his team and the team that could have been his. "The only reason I came out was to play with Kareem and the Lakers.

http://articles.latimes.com/1991-06-05/sports/sp-83_1_lakers

[The4thHorseman]

I was looking at RealGM TOP100 2017 list and started to think, how many players from TOP50 Lebron beat in the East PO

What I found it was worse than I thought

33y Kidd TOP40
33y Pierce TOP50
34y KG TOP20

All past primes

For the millionth time, basketball is a teams sport, what do these big names give you? Detroit was a damn good team in 07 while Bron had boobie gibson and larry hughes for his backcourt, but omg billups, hamilton, prince, sheed are not in top 50 that looks like a "bad team" to me, right?

How come nobody has a problem with Magic and Kareem beating really mediocre western teams back in the 80s? There are tons of people who have Kareem or Magic as their 2nd best players ever. And they played TOGETHER for many years.

For example lakers in 87 west faced 8th, 5th and 7th seeded teams which none of them won more than 45 games, think about that for a second....

In the early 80's, top teams got first round bye's and then the league did away with that, making it much harder by going to a 3 game series in the first round. The 80's West was pretty much a joke outside of a few teams. Lakers division was pathetic. A cakewalk to the Finals for those who like to use that saying.

Like you pointing out that 1987 Lakers team. The 3 teams they played had a combined 118-128 record. James has never come close to having had a cakewalk like that!

Kareem and Magic got first round byes and played 3 games series' in a conference that hardly played defense, yet they're considered top 5 all time in most people's eyes.

Why don't they get called out??

[G35]

So if Chris Bosh wasn't going to sign with Heat in 2010, do you think Lebron will still run to South Beach and play with Wade?

Also, if PG/Westbrook/Lebron do sign with the Lakers next year and then trade Lonzo Ball for some established star, are they not stacking the deck? Or are they a lottery team that Lebron single handily turned around?

How do we know what any one of them were going to do? It is obvious the three of them colluded to go to Miami to stack the deck in their favor. It doesn't matter about the what if because that is what happened.

Also, I do not want Lebron coming to LA. Period. I don't want them to trade Lonzo Ball. I'm not a fan of these...basically get rich quick pyramid schemes...I would rather the Lakers build their team organically like the Warriors did. It has a better chance of long term success...as you can see with these Lebron built teams they have a window of 3-4 years and they fall apart.

Also, I don't know why people keep bringing up the 73 win Warriors...as if that means anything...when you don't win the whole thing your win total doesn't mean much either. The Warriors last year won 67 games but all CLE fans want to say is, "Durant joined a 73 win team." Well it didn't help them win any more regular season games now did it. All that matters is if you take home the ring at the end.

People want it so easy nowadays, no one wants to build anything......

LeBron tried to persuade Bosh to sign with Cleveland in 2010. Raps and Cavs tried to work out a trade

http://www.cleveland.com/ohio-sports-blog/index.ssf/2010/07/lebron_james_and_chris_bosh_co.html

But yeah, the 3 colluded long before to go to Miami.


Nowadays?? Lakers fan forgetting about the 96-97 draft when talking about players avoiding to try to build a team??

Or Magic's quote during the 1991 Finals??

CHICAGO — Magic Johnson would have returned to Michigan State rather than play for the Chicago Bulls.

"I'd have stayed in school," he said here Tuesday, standing alone outside Gate 3 1/2 of Chicago Stadium, the house that could have been his. "A coin toss changed the course of my whole life."

"I wouldn't have played here," Johnson said on the eve of Game 2 of the NBA finals between his team and the team that could have been his. "The only reason I came out was to play with Kareem and the Lakers.

http://articles.latimes.com/1991-06-05/sports/sp-83_1_lakers

What does Lebron trying to get Bosh to Cleveland have to do with Lebron and Bosh joining Wade in Miami?

You think it was some coincidence they all went to Miami that off season? They obviously talked about it and agreed to it, which is collusion. Its not illegal since they did it as players but they still colluded. But it did not give any other teams a fair shot at signing Bosh or Lebron to their teams......

[andrewww]

Lebron stacks the deck in Miami expecting to dominate immediately in the best possible situatiok with cap space, gel in year 2. Durant takes deck stacking to another level beating Lebron at his own game, now everyone calls foul on Durant?! Lmao the hypocrisy of Durant's critics show how far society's lack of common sense has fallen. The principle in both situations is the same! Smh those who never get this concept are the same as those who think Shaq carried Kobe to championships. They probably never will get it.

[Pennebaker]

Lebron stacks the deck in Miami expecting to dominate immediately in the best possible situatiok with cap space, gel in year 2. Durant takes deck stacking to another level beating Lebron at his own game, now everyone calls foul on Durant?!

Lebron stacked the deck by joining a Miami team that hadn't made it past the first round since since Shaq left!!!? You're misguided.

Durant joined a 70+ win team that had just won a championship within the last 2 years. THAT'S stacking the deck. LeBron going to Miami to play with a Shaq-less 47-win Wade and unproven Bosh was another thing altogether.

[-Sammy-]

Also, I don't know why people keep bringing up the 73 win Warriors...as if that means anything...when you don't win the whole thing your win total doesn't mean much either. The Warriors last year won 67 games but all CLE fans want to say is, "Durant joined a 73 win team." Well it didn't help them win any more regular season games now did it. All that matters is if you take home the ring at the end.

I feel like this perspective is a little disingenuous because it carries the implied assumption that all Finals runners-up are created equal. Does anybody equate the 2016 Warriors with, say, the ‘99 Knicks, who made the Finals as an eighth seed, or the Jason Kidd-era New Jersey finalists? Alternatively, the ‘95 Rockets are noteworthy because every team they beat in the playoffs was better than them by record. Both those Rockets and the ‘16 Cavs are anomalous.

The reason the Cleveland championship is one of the greatest in league history is precisely because GS was so heavily-favored. It’s somewhat revisionist to retroactively dismiss them as ‘just another Finals runner-up’ because they didn’t win.

[Baski]

I guess you overlooked his words "going into the 2017 playoffs". That means his two wins against 50 win teams in the 2017 playoffs were not considered, so he was correct.

How many 70 win teams has Lebron been a part of? Oh, that's right, zero. Guess that's another +1 for Jordan.

Lebron didn't beat the Warriors 70+ win team, the league gifted that title to him by suspending Draymond Green for no reason, and Kyrie clinched the series while Lebron stood aside and watched in crunch time. Steph was also injured for those playoffs, as he proved by redeeming himself in this past year's Finals when they blew the Cavs off the court. When it was clear an injured Curry wasn't enough to give the Cavs the title, the league stepped in and took away the guy who was guarding Lebron on a very controversial suspension. But sure, I guess that shows how dominant Lebron is?

I don't understand why some people arguing against certain players choose to say things like this. There are tons of perfectly legitimate points that could be used to argue Jordan's or any other top 5 guy's dominance over LeBron's, without lying and making yourself look bad. Why does presenting LeBron in the absolute worst light ( and thus in most cases, like this one, lying) appeal to some guys on here so much? It's like he can't be great while Jordan is greater. It's only Jordan that can be great while he must be a useless choker who needed the NBA's direct interference and or for a teammate to "win him the game" with an action in an arbitrarily chosen timeframe in whatever quarter deemed most important by the agenda. I sincerely don't get it.
The worst part of it is that you guys are the same ones who will complain about a pro-LeBron bias here when you receive backlash for posts of this nature. You can and should do better.

[nikster]

I already expressed my concerns about your analysis in the original thread but I noticed additional stuff...
your analysis is great but too biased in favour of the "toughest matchup" which you present in almost infinite sauces.
Beating the toughest is not the end of all ends.
1) I understand there's a high correlation between winning a ring and beating the toughest opponent available but you're doing a disservice to players like MJ, Duncan, Magic who often were anchoring the best teams in the NBA. this reduces the chances of meeting a tough team and increase the chances that "the toughest team they meet is less tough" than those met by other GOAT players
2) "The unhealthy obsession with the toughest": for example, the Spurs often faced great teams in the first round that gets buried by your analysis which only considers "the toughest matchups" and ignores even those slightly below "the toughest threshold" so to speak. What about an average of the 2nd or 3rd toughest teams in title seasons? Teams in initial rounds make an impact on a player's body and their ability to win a ring (not only because you face better teams but also because you play more games)

Your analysis depicts a disproportional situation where people like Mj, Kaj,Magic and Duncan look like players who were lucky to stroll to a title. This a clear example of data manipulation and data presentation done not properly

This isn't a clear example of data manipulation at all, I think you just don't like the results. Yes there are some concerns with the data, and you have to be cautious with how you interpret it, but those type of concerns will be with any data set. This is just one of many ways to analyze the difficulty

There prolly is data manipulation if we are comparing LeBron vs MJ. I don't think LeBron should be in the category yet because there are more recent players like Kobe and TD with the hardware and MVP awards that LeBron still has to beat. Kobe and TD played for one team their entire career. Sure, LeBron has made eight straight Finals appearances which is the best, but he doesn't have the rings and MVPs to go with it. I'll give him cred for improving his game to new heights. Then there is his cherry picking his teams which other greats didn't do as much as LeBron. It's a players league right now, but LeBron has manipulated his way to potential championship teams. The guy may have invented player collusion teams when he teamed up with Wade and Bosh. LeBron still has to show he can win it all when other top players such as KD, Chris Paul and Kyrie/Gordon Hayward are getting on already winning teams. Instead, he may be moving elsewhere via player collusion if the Cavs don't reach the Finals this year.

Again nothing you said suggests data was manipulated. You just have to put it into context.

And your ridiculous if you dont think Lebron has surpassed Kobe

[The4thHorseman]

How do we know what any one of them were going to do? It is obvious the three of them colluded to go to Miami to stack the deck in their favor. It doesn't matter about the what if because that is what happened.

Also, I do not want Lebron coming to LA. Period. I don't want them to trade Lonzo Ball. I'm not a fan of these...basically get rich quick pyramid schemes...I would rather the Lakers build their team organically like the Warriors did. It has a better chance of long term success...as you can see with these Lebron built teams they have a window of 3-4 years and they fall apart.

Also, I don't know why people keep bringing up the 73 win Warriors...as if that means anything...when you don't win the whole thing your win total doesn't mean much either. The Warriors last year won 67 games but all CLE fans want to say is, "Durant joined a 73 win team." Well it didn't help them win any more regular season games now did it. All that matters is if you take home the ring at the end.

People want it so easy nowadays, no one wants to build anything......

LeBron tried to persuade Bosh to sign with Cleveland in 2010. Raps and Cavs tried to work out a trade

http://www.cleveland.com/ohio-sports-blog/index.ssf/2010/07/lebron_james_and_chris_bosh_co.html

But yeah, the 3 colluded long before to go to Miami.


Nowadays?? Lakers fan forgetting about the 96-97 draft when talking about players avoiding to try to build a team??

Or Magic's quote during the 1991 Finals??

CHICAGO — Magic Johnson would have returned to Michigan State rather than play for the Chicago Bulls.

"I'd have stayed in school," he said here Tuesday, standing alone outside Gate 3 1/2 of Chicago Stadium, the house that could have been his. "A coin toss changed the course of my whole life."

"I wouldn't have played here," Johnson said on the eve of Game 2 of the NBA finals between his team and the team that could have been his. "The only reason I came out was to play with Kareem and the Lakers.

http://articles.latimes.com/1991-06-05/sports/sp-83_1_lakers

What does Lebron trying to get Bosh to Cleveland have to do with Lebron and Bosh joining Wade in Miami?

You think it was some coincidence they all went to Miami that off season? They obviously talked about it and agreed to it, which is collusion. Its not illegal since they did it as players but they still colluded. But it did not give any other teams a fair shot at signing Bosh or Lebron to their teams......

You said they colluded. Which the definition means they did something in secret. If that were the case and they both already agreed to play in Miami, then why was James trying to get Bosh to come to Cleveland?

Didn't give other teams a fair shot of signing? Players demand or request trades all the time. Does that mean doing other teams wrong for not playing out their contract to become a UFA so all teams have a chance to sign them?

Are you pissed Kyrie didn't play out his contract so all teams had a fair chance of signing him? Should there be no trades allowed at all so players can play out their contracts and all teams have a fair shot at signing them???

GSW were recruiting KD the entire 2016 season. Does that mean they weren't giving other teams a fair shot at signing him??

You're reaching, man.

[Ben-N1ce]

Lebron stacks the deck in Miami expecting to dominate immediately in the best possible situatiok with cap space, gel in year 2. Durant takes deck stacking to another level beating Lebron at his own game, now everyone calls foul on Durant?!

Lebron stacked the deck by joining a Miami team that hadn't made it past the first round since since Shaq left!!!? You're misguided.

Durant joined a 70+ win team that had just won a championship within the last 2 years. THAT'S stacking the deck. LeBron going to Miami to play with a Shaq-less 47-win Wade and unproven Bosh was another thing altogether.

How was what Miami's record before relevant? He joined the 2nd best SG and top 5 PF in the game while being the best player in the game in order to face East teams that had one player tops of the same caliber on their entire roster. That's called stacking the deck...