Pippen in this era versus 90s

[Nazrmohamed]

Pippen would be top 5 easily, and a huge thorn in the side of Lebron whenever they play.

I think that's crazy talk. Could he frustrate him a bit, maybe. Ive seen worse guys do it. But in thr end LeBron lowers his head and onliterates. Scotty Pippen weighed like 220 folks, tops. The idea that hes stopping LeBron is just ridiculous. And trust me, the old school physical play is of no advantage to Pippen. All it means is Lebron is now free to push back except he dribbles like Barron Davis and is as built like a tank. Stop. There was noone like LeBron.....ever

[richboy]

I think that pippen is better than kawahi (as of right now) but I can see the argument against that. He is a better defender in my opinion as well as a better passer. He proved that he can carry the team as a #1 option too so its not like he is totally incompetent on offense. He would be 3rd best player behind LeBron and Durant.

You have to read deeper into things than wins and losses. Pippen didn't prove he could carry a team as a number 1 option. The Bulls proved you can still win games with great defense and rebounding. Those Bulls teams really struggled to score without Jordan.

Sorry Pippen wishes he was as good as Kawhi. He is a better passer than Kawhi but it wasn't like Scottie was running PNR and setting up teammates. His assist were really a product of the triangle offense and ball movement. He was maybe a better team defender than Kawhi but I'll take Kawhi individual defense. In terms of offensive scoring ability it isn't even close. I could make a case that Kawhi is as good as Durant and Lebron. No way in this world has Pippen been in that class. If Pippen proved he could be a number 1 option for 1 year when they were bad on offense and had a pretty low SRS. What did he prove the next year when they struggled and he was begging MJ to come back?

[-TheDocOfDenial]

I think that pippen is better than kawahi (as of right now) but I can see the argument against that. He is a better defender in my opinion as well as a better passer. He proved that he can carry the team as a #1 option too so its not like he is totally incompetent on offense. He would be 3rd best player behind LeBron and Durant.

You have to read deeper into things than wins and losses. Pippen didn't prove he could carry a team as a number 1 option. The Bulls proved you can still win games with great defense and rebounding. Those Bulls teams really struggled to score without Jordan.

Sorry Pippen wishes he was as good as Kawhi. He is a better passer than Kawhi but it wasn't like Scottie was running PNR and setting up teammates. His assist were really a product of the triangle offense and ball movement. He was maybe a better team defender than Kawhi but I'll take Kawhi individual defense. In terms of offensive scoring ability it isn't even close. I could make a case that Kawhi is as good as Durant and Lebron. No way in this world has Pippen been in that class. If Pippen proved he could be a number 1 option for 1 year when they were bad on offense and had a pretty low SRS. What did he prove the next year when they struggled and he was begging MJ to come back?

Scottie pippen at worst is 95% the player that Kawhi is. its totally fine if you think Kawhi is a better player (which the case can be made due to his offensive numbers, I still think defensively pippen was a little better) but to pretend that he just blows him out of the water is blasphemous.

[OdomFan]

Pippen would be top 5 easily, and a huge thorn in the side of Lebron whenever they play.

I think that's crazy talk. Could he frustrate him a bit, maybe. Ive seen worse guys do it. But in thr end LeBron lowers his head and onliterates. Scotty Pippen weighed like 220 folks, tops. The idea that hes stopping LeBron is just ridiculous. And trust me, the old school physical play is of no advantage to Pippen. All it means is Lebron is now free to push back except he dribbles like Barron Davis and is as built like a tank. Stop. There was noone like LeBron.....ever

I think that's crazy talk. Pippen is one of the greatest defenders of all time and i simply meant he'd be a challenge for him. Obviously he wouldn't shut Lebron down but he would definitely be one of the guys Lebron couldn't just run over.

[richboy]

I think that pippen is better than kawahi (as of right now) but I can see the argument against that. He is a better defender in my opinion as well as a better passer. He proved that he can carry the team as a #1 option too so its not like he is totally incompetent on offense. He would be 3rd best player behind LeBron and Durant.

You have to read deeper into things than wins and losses. Pippen didn't prove he could carry a team as a number 1 option. The Bulls proved you can still win games with great defense and rebounding. Those Bulls teams really struggled to score without Jordan.

Sorry Pippen wishes he was as good as Kawhi. He is a better passer than Kawhi but it wasn't like Scottie was running PNR and setting up teammates. His assist were really a product of the triangle offense and ball movement. He was maybe a better team defender than Kawhi but I'll take Kawhi individual defense. In terms of offensive scoring ability it isn't even close. I could make a case that Kawhi is as good as Durant and Lebron. No way in this world has Pippen been in that class. If Pippen proved he could be a number 1 option for 1 year when they were bad on offense and had a pretty low SRS. What did he prove the next year when they struggled and he was begging MJ to come back?

Scottie pippen at worst is 95% the player that Kawhi is. its totally fine if you think Kawhi is a better player (which the case can be made due to his offensive numbers, I still think defensively pippen was a little better) but to pretend that he just blows him out of the water is blasphemous.

Based on what? Scottie Pippen compared to Kawhi is a terrible shooter. Pippen was just above a 30% 3 point shooter. Barely a 70% free throw shooter. Kawhi was nearly 50, 40, 90 a year ago. Pippen had no midrange game. Kawhi has a mid-range game that people compare to Michael Jordan.

Kawhi just had back to back 121 Ortg. Did that with a 30 usage rate. I've talked about this in the past. 120 Ortg is like the offensive rating you get when your only shooting wide open shots. When a star player gets that it an eye opener. When a star player gets that with 30 usage that is like your playing by yourself despite the fact everyone knows your getting the ball. Only the greatest offensive players in league history have done that.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&season_start=1&season_end=-1&lg_id=NBA&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=N&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=mp_per_g_req&c1stat=off_rtg&c1comp=gt&c1val=119&c2stat=usg_pct&c2comp=gt&c2val=30&order_by=ws

Jordan, Bird, Lebron, Thomas, Durant, The Admiral, Steph.

You in essence have an historic great offensive player who is also a historically great defensive player. Somehow people think Pippen is 95% of what Kawhi is. Like I said Pippen has become easily the most overrated player in league history. He is a great defensive player and a above average to good offensive player.

Oh yeah Kawhi was even better in the playoffs. Went to 130 Ortg. Pippen had years of sub 40% shooting in the playoffs. Bulls won the title the year they won 72 games and Pippen TS was 47%. They had a 3 peat and his Ts was 47, 52, and 50 in those playoffs years. With years he could barely make 60% of his free throws when the pressure was on in the playoffs. These are Derrick Rose numbers. People wonder what would happen if he played today. He would get killed for just riding Jordan's coat tails. People kill Steph Curry for his playoffs and he was way better than Scottie Pippen. There zero chance he would be considered as good as Kawhi. Maybe as good as Paul George. PG does not measure close to Kawhi in terms of offensive efficiency. Forget Kevin Durant. People trying to put Pippen in the same sentence with guys like Durant, Kawhi, Lebron are just hyping him up. He is much more on the level of a PG and Jimmy Butler. I wouldn't even put him in the Giannis level anymore. I think he has surpassed what Pippen was last year.

[Soulcatcher33]

You have to read deeper into things than wins and losses. Pippen didn't prove he could carry a team as a number 1 option. The Bulls proved you can still win games with great defense and rebounding. Those Bulls teams really struggled to score without Jordan.

Sorry Pippen wishes he was as good as Kawhi. He is a better passer than Kawhi but it wasn't like Scottie was running PNR and setting up teammates. His assist were really a product of the triangle offense and ball movement. He was maybe a better team defender than Kawhi but I'll take Kawhi individual defense. In terms of offensive scoring ability it isn't even close. I could make a case that Kawhi is as good as Durant and Lebron. No way in this world has Pippen been in that class. If Pippen proved he could be a number 1 option for 1 year when they were bad on offense and had a pretty low SRS. What did he prove the next year when they struggled and he was begging MJ to come back?

Scottie pippen at worst is 95% the player that Kawhi is. its totally fine if you think Kawhi is a better player (which the case can be made due to his offensive numbers, I still think defensively pippen was a little better) but to pretend that he just blows him out of the water is blasphemous.

Based on what? Scottie Pippen compared to Kawhi is a terrible shooter. Pippen was just above a 30% 3 point shooter. Barely a 70% free throw shooter. Kawhi was nearly 50, 40, 90 a year ago. Pippen had no midrange game. Kawhi has a mid-range game that people compare to Michael Jordan.

Kawhi just had back to back 121 Ortg. Did that with a 30 usage rate. I've talked about this in the past. 120 Ortg is like the offensive rating you get when your only shooting wide open shots. When a star player gets that it an eye opener. When a star player gets that with 30 usage that is like your playing by yourself despite the fact everyone knows your getting the ball. Only the greatest offensive players in league history have done that.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&season_start=1&season_end=-1&lg_id=NBA&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=N&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=mp_per_g_req&c1stat=off_rtg&c1comp=gt&c1val=119&c2stat=usg_pct&c2comp=gt&c2val=30&order_by=ws

Jordan, Bird, Lebron, Thomas, Durant, The Admiral, Steph.

You in essence have an historic great offensive player who is also a historically great defensive player. Somehow people think Pippen is 95% of what Kawhi is. Like I said Pippen has become easily the most overrated player in league history. He is a great defensive player and a above average to good offensive player.

Oh yeah Kawhi was even better in the playoffs. Went to 130 Ortg. Pippen had years of sub 40% shooting in the playoffs. Bulls won the title the year they won 72 games and Pippen TS was 47%. They had a 3 peat and his Ts was 47, 52, and 50 in those playoffs years. With years he could barely make 60% of his free throws when the pressure was on in the playoffs. These are Derrick Rose numbers. People wonder what would happen if he played today. He would get killed for just riding Jordan's coat tails. People kill Steph Curry for his playoffs and he was way better than Scottie Pippen. There zero chance he would be considered as good as Kawhi. Maybe as good as Paul George. PG does not measure close to Kawhi in terms of offensive efficiency. Forget Kevin Durant. People trying to put Pippen in the same sentence with guys like Durant, Kawhi, Lebron are just hyping him up. He is much more on the level of a PG and Jimmy Butler. I wouldn't even put him in the Giannis level anymore. I think he has surpassed what Pippen was last year.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Pippen's impact goes way beyond the numbers. He had the rare ability to make everyone around him better anytime he was on the court. Pippen actually led EVERYONE in the 96 playoffs in bpm and vorp with 9.3 with a 1.9. He had a 5.1OBPM despite the fact that he shot horrible that entire playoffs because everyone else played so much better while he was out there. He wasn't riding any coattails to championships. Without his defense the Bulls wouldn't be close to the team they were throughout their championship runs. Also, you have no idea what you are talking about when you say he couldn't have been a pg. The guy actually WAS the pg on the blazers in 2002 at 36 years old. I watched the blazers all season that year and that team was such a disaster when he was off the court. He could have easily been a pg throughout his career and frankly, as I said before, wasn't even playing in an offense that played to his skills as as scorer anyway.

He's one of the 5 greatest open court players, but the triangle offense wasn't a run and gun and get into the open court kind of offense. Unless they were picking off steals they were rarely ever running. He was also a really good post player who never got to utilize his post game because the team had MIchael Jordan and they wanted Scottie initating the offense. He'd be both better offensively and defensively in this era because one on one you can't be physical with perimeter players so athletic players like him get to the rim a lot easier and then with no illegal defense he could just roam around on defense being a bigger terror than he already was with his help and team defense. (which he was already the best ever at with illegal defense)

[Johnny Bball]

Would dominate.

[hege53190]

Pau had more 3 point makes last year than his first 10 years in the league combined. It is the perfect example of someone molding their game to the modern system.

You don't like him? How about his brother?

You don't like him? How about Al Horford?

Don't like Al Horford?

How about Brook Lopez? Brook only had 31 ATTEMPTS before last season. Last season Brook had more 3 pters made than Larry Bird had in any season in his career.

But players can't mold their game.

Those examples work exactly opposite to your argumentation. These players did not try to shoot threes before. Their ability was just unknown. Once they did it actually turned out that they are decent shooters.

Pippen shot 1861 3PA with the regular line on a 30.2% clip. That are enough attempts to state that he isn't a good three point shooter.

This is a really lazy argument. You think Pau was always a 40%+ 3 pt shooter but he never took them because in his 30 years of playing basketball he wasn't sure he could make them?

It isn't that he put in a tremendous amount of work on his game to become a good 3 pt shooter?

What about Jae Crowder? I suppose through 4 years in the league he just didn't know he was a good 3 point shooter then all of a sudden he decided he was and became a 40% shooter from 3?

What a Joke.

[richboy]

Scottie pippen at worst is 95% the player that Kawhi is. its totally fine if you think Kawhi is a better player (which the case can be made due to his offensive numbers, I still think defensively pippen was a little better) but to pretend that he just blows him out of the water is blasphemous.

Based on what? Scottie Pippen compared to Kawhi is a terrible shooter. Pippen was just above a 30% 3 point shooter. Barely a 70% free throw shooter. Kawhi was nearly 50, 40, 90 a year ago. Pippen had no midrange game. Kawhi has a mid-range game that people compare to Michael Jordan.

Kawhi just had back to back 121 Ortg. Did that with a 30 usage rate. I've talked about this in the past. 120 Ortg is like the offensive rating you get when your only shooting wide open shots. When a star player gets that it an eye opener. When a star player gets that with 30 usage that is like your playing by yourself despite the fact everyone knows your getting the ball. Only the greatest offensive players in league history have done that.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&season_start=1&season_end=-1&lg_id=NBA&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=N&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=mp_per_g_req&c1stat=off_rtg&c1comp=gt&c1val=119&c2stat=usg_pct&c2comp=gt&c2val=30&order_by=ws

Jordan, Bird, Lebron, Thomas, Durant, The Admiral, Steph.

You in essence have an historic great offensive player who is also a historically great defensive player. Somehow people think Pippen is 95% of what Kawhi is. Like I said Pippen has become easily the most overrated player in league history. He is a great defensive player and a above average to good offensive player.

Oh yeah Kawhi was even better in the playoffs. Went to 130 Ortg. Pippen had years of sub 40% shooting in the playoffs. Bulls won the title the year they won 72 games and Pippen TS was 47%. They had a 3 peat and his Ts was 47, 52, and 50 in those playoffs years. With years he could barely make 60% of his free throws when the pressure was on in the playoffs. These are Derrick Rose numbers. People wonder what would happen if he played today. He would get killed for just riding Jordan's coat tails. People kill Steph Curry for his playoffs and he was way better than Scottie Pippen. There zero chance he would be considered as good as Kawhi. Maybe as good as Paul George. PG does not measure close to Kawhi in terms of offensive efficiency. Forget Kevin Durant. People trying to put Pippen in the same sentence with guys like Durant, Kawhi, Lebron are just hyping him up. He is much more on the level of a PG and Jimmy Butler. I wouldn't even put him in the Giannis level anymore. I think he has surpassed what Pippen was last year.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Pippen's impact goes way beyond the numbers. He had the rare ability to make everyone around him better anytime he was on the court. Pippen actually led EVERYONE in the 96 playoffs in bpm and vorp with 9.3 with a 1.9. He had a 5.1OBPM despite the fact that he shot horrible that entire playoffs because everyone else played so much better while he was out there. He wasn't riding any coattails to championships. Without his defense the Bulls wouldn't be close to the team they were throughout their championship runs. Also, you have no idea what you are talking about when you say he couldn't have been a pg. The guy actually WAS the pg on the blazers in 2002 at 36 years old. I watched the blazers all season that year and that team was such a disaster when he was off the court. He could have easily been a pg throughout his career and frankly, as I said before, wasn't even playing in an offense that played to his skills as as scorer anyway.

He's one of the 5 greatest open court players, but the triangle offense wasn't a run and gun and get into the open court kind of offense. Unless they were picking off steals they were rarely ever running. He was also a really good post player who never got to utilize his post game because the team had MIchael Jordan and they wanted Scottie initating the offense. He'd be both better offensively and defensively in this era because one on one you can't be physical with perimeter players so athletic players like him get to the rim a lot easier and then with no illegal defense he could just roam around on defense being a bigger terror than he already was with his help and team defense. (which he was already the best ever at with illegal defense)

Your making a statement and coming to a conclusion that isn't supported by your statement. I'm sorry just because your bpm doesn't make you all-time great. Do I need to list all the players that have done well in that state. All your saying is Pippen was a valuable player. He was great in VORP. So was Larry Nance. Nobody said Pippen didn't have Value. You stating his value and then suggesting that equals as good as Kawhi. AT the same time saying well he wasn't actually good at scoring the ball. Everything you said I could say about peak Shawn Marion. He didn't play with Michael Jordan.

Not sure what you mean he didn't play in an offense to his skills. That to me is an excuse to lack of offensive achievement. That is fine but very few players get to play in a system just perfect for them. The triangle probably hid most of his weaknesses. As he was a decent post player for a small forward but your not building an offense around Pippen's post game. He didn't have much else to offer in half court basketball.There is give and take to any situations. I think the triangle was a pretty good situation for Scottie.

I didn't say Pippen couldn't play PG. I said he was a better passer than Kawhi but it wasn't like he was setting up teammates for open shots. Pippen was similar to Iggy who could get you set in the offense but your not going to have him running your PNR.

Yes in the world of today people would say Pippen was along for the ride. I know this because they said it when he was playing. After some of his terrible playoff games he took a ton of heat from the local press. When the series ended with a Chicago Bulls victory it was easy to just move on and forget. If Pippen played today and wasn't winning titles nobody is going to care about is BPM while shooting terrible in a series. While not doing anything in the clutch. While your opponents are calling you soft in playoff series. If Pippen played today on a great team he would get the Chris Bosh treatment. The Shawn Marion treatment. The Iggy treatment. Which is this guy is extremely valuable and we probably don't win the title without him but he not the reason we won the title.

[LakerLegend]

Imagine Leonard with better athleticism, ballhandling, and smarts.

Pippen might be one of the 10 smartest players ever.

[Jables]

Pippen was incredibly underrated for two reasons.

1). He played with MJ.

2). He was abit of an ****.

Not many players however who could go from guarding John Stockton to Karl Malone in the same game and do a good job on both.

Pippen was amazing.

Guys like Pippen, Rodman and Grant weren't underrated because of MJ lol, the brief time he played without MJ he took a lot of flak for his attitude. People call Pippen a genius non stop on this board.

I'd take him over Kawhi, but only just. Bit better as an athlete, better defender. He'd have no worries developing a 3 shot. I love Lebron, but Iguodola got praised for his defense on James and Pippen is just straight up better in every way than Iguodola. He can't stop Lebron, but he'd be the guy you want to put on Lebron.

[richboy]

top 10 player
i think it's fair to put him next to kawhi
no biggie if u rank pippen ahead of kawhi now b/c kawhi is only 25 and has yet to reach his prime, which i believe will be higher than pippen's prime. the fact that pippen vs kawhi now is a debate shows how close kawhi already is.

I love defending my 90s players but I still think Pippen was overrated. Not that he wasnt good, Im not saying that at all. He is everything people say he was ....but people seemingly forget that there were about 29 first options and had the responsibility that came with that even if perhaps they couldnt win at the highest level. No doubt Pippen was better than at least a third of them the same way Wade was better than alot of primary options while on the Heat with Lebron. But difference is Pippen was a career second option and I always felt it disrespectful even in his own era that he was put ahead of guys that we as fans would consider fully responsible for thier teams failure. In my opinion Kuwai is already better simply by definition of being the best player on one of the top 4 teams in the nba. Again, Pippen WAS great. He WAS better than alot of primary options on losing teams but in the 90s hero ball era, modern fans can argue that the depth wasn't as good as today's era but when a guy was labeled a superstar it usually was because he was bonafide. I wouldn't say he was a top 10 talent in his era so how could he be top 10 now with way more talent?

Pippen got screwed in Game 5 of the 1994 ECSF against the Knicks. Bulls should've won that series in 6. The Bulls would've beat them and Indiana, and would've had a tough competitive series against Houston in the Finals. This is all without Jordan.

Why? Because that year, Pippen led the Bulls in Points, Assists, Blocks, and was 2nd in steals. He won All Star MVP and made his first of three All NBA First Team awards. In 1995, he became the second player ever to lead a team in all five stats (Pts, Rebs, Asts, Stls, Blks).

So sorry. Pippen could've been an exceptional first option. Because he did that in '94 and '95.

I love these arguments. The Bulls go out in the second round but somehow they find themselves all the way in the NBA finals. A team with a SRS of 2.8. Mediocre on offense. Pretty much last years OKC Thunder in terms of level of play. The Bulls played in a weak East and went out to a not great Knicks team. Where in those 4 loses to the Knicks they averaged like 85 a game. Including 77 in game 7.

Pippen went 8 for 22 and 1 for 6 from downtown in game 7. He shot 40% in the series. BJ Armstrong and Horace Grant were killing the Knicks and Kukoc made the shot that actually made that even a series. Yet somehow years later Pippen carried them not to a second round battle with the Knicks. No he really took them all the way to the NBA finals if not for a bad call. Oh yeah Nobody ever mentions that the Bulls were 34-31 the following year with Pippen prior to MJ return. Just he would have been an amazing number 1 option. Like I said Pippen somehow has grown into the most overrated player in league history.

[richboy]

Pippen was incredibly underrated for two reasons.

1). He played with MJ.

2). He was abit of an ****.

Not many players however who could go from guarding John Stockton to Karl Malone in the same game and do a good job on both.

Pippen was amazing.

Guys like Pippen, Rodman and Grant weren't underrated because of MJ lol, the brief time he played without MJ he took a lot of flak for his attitude. People call Pippen a genius non stop on this board.

I'd take him over Kawhi, but only just. Bit better as an athlete, better defender. He'd have no worries developing a 3 shot. I love Lebron, but Iguodola got praised for his defense on James and Pippen is just straight up better in every way than Iguodola. He can't stop Lebron, but he'd be the guy you want to put on Lebron.

What you mean he would develop a 3 point shot? Pippen was not someone who didn't take advantage of the the 3 point shot. He took a ton of them. He wasn't a very good shooter. Not everyone playing today can develop a shot like Kawhi.

[Kabookalu]

Pippen would be top 5 easily, and a huge thorn in the side of Lebron whenever they play.

I think that's crazy talk. Could he frustrate him a bit, maybe. Ive seen worse guys do it. But in thr end LeBron lowers his head and onliterates. Scotty Pippen weighed like 220 folks, tops. The idea that hes stopping LeBron is just ridiculous. And trust me, the old school physical play is of no advantage to Pippen. All it means is Lebron is now free to push back except he dribbles like Barron Davis and is as built like a tank. Stop. There was noone like LeBron.....ever

Kawhi Leonard, that one guy who tends to do the best against LeBron defensively, weighs 230. However some may disagree and say it's Andre Iguodala back in 2015, who himself weighs 215. Others say Jimmy Butler, who weighs 220, or Paul George, also 220.

[OdomFan]

Some of ya'll overrating Lebron too much thinking he can just blow by any other SF in history.

[bakesale]

Pippen isn't close to Kawhi as a scorer, and the gap's only getting bigger year by year.

Kawhi isn't close to Pippen as a point guard/play maker and never will be.

Okay.. That wasn't the point of the post.

Sounds to me like the point out what Kawhi is better at than Pippen and I pointed out what Pippen can do better than Kawhi, so?

[bakesale]

Pippen isn't close to Kawhi as a scorer, and the gap's only getting bigger year by year.

Kawhi isn't close to Pippen as a point guard/play maker and never will be.

This sounds like when everyone said Kawhi could never be an MVP caliber guy or lead a team cause he's a system player talk.

He's improved every single year and added something new to his game. To say he'll never be is awfully premature

I didn't say he hasn't improved, I said it's not in him to be a natural point guard like playmaker in the mould of Pippen or Lebron. They are set up men and it comes natural for them to be that way. They showed these tendencies from a young age. It's not something that suddenly comes to you in your mid to late 20s. I'm not necessarily saying Pippen is a better player, I'm saying they just have different strengths.

[Soulcatcher33]

I love defending my 90s players but I still think Pippen was overrated. Not that he wasnt good, Im not saying that at all. He is everything people say he was ....but people seemingly forget that there were about 29 first options and had the responsibility that came with that even if perhaps they couldnt win at the highest level. No doubt Pippen was better than at least a third of them the same way Wade was better than alot of primary options while on the Heat with Lebron. But difference is Pippen was a career second option and I always felt it disrespectful even in his own era that he was put ahead of guys that we as fans would consider fully responsible for thier teams failure. In my opinion Kuwai is already better simply by definition of being the best player on one of the top 4 teams in the nba. Again, Pippen WAS great. He WAS better than alot of primary options on losing teams but in the 90s hero ball era, modern fans can argue that the depth wasn't as good as today's era but when a guy was labeled a superstar it usually was because he was bonafide. I wouldn't say he was a top 10 talent in his era so how could he be top 10 now with way more talent?

Pippen got screwed in Game 5 of the 1994 ECSF against the Knicks. Bulls should've won that series in 6. The Bulls would've beat them and Indiana, and would've had a tough competitive series against Houston in the Finals. This is all without Jordan.

Why? Because that year, Pippen led the Bulls in Points, Assists, Blocks, and was 2nd in steals. He won All Star MVP and made his first of three All NBA First Team awards. In 1995, he became the second player ever to lead a team in all five stats (Pts, Rebs, Asts, Stls, Blks).

So sorry. Pippen could've been an exceptional first option. Because he did that in '94 and '95.

I love these arguments. The Bulls go out in the second round but somehow they find themselves all the way in the NBA finals. A team with a SRS of 2.8. Mediocre on offense. Pretty much last years OKC Thunder in terms of level of play. The Bulls played in a weak East and went out to a not great Knicks team. Where in those 4 loses to the Knicks they averaged like 85 a game. Including 77 in game 7. Bulls certainly don't get past the knicks in 93 without Pippen playing great throughout the series.

Pippen went 8 for 22 and 1 for 6 from downtown in game 7. He shot 40% in the series. BJ Armstrong and Horace Grant were killing the Knicks and Kukoc made the shot that actually made that even a series. Yet somehow years later Pippen carried them not to a second round battle with the Knicks. No he really took them all the way to the NBA finals if not for a bad call. Oh yeah Nobody ever mentions that the Bulls were 34-31 the following year with Pippen prior to MJ return. Just he would have been an amazing number 1 option. Like I said Pippen somehow has grown into the most overrated player in league history.

Wait...you mean the focus of the best defensive team in the league struggled? Nooooooooo...really? You realize Jordan wasn't exactly lighting it up in the 93 playoffs vs the knicks right? He shot 40% himself in the 93 series and he was the best player in the world. That's without mentioning that if you take away that 54 point explosion in game 4 he was terrible scoring wise and basically taking as many shots as points he was putting up. They certainly don't get past the knicks without Pippens great play in the 93 series. Also, why are you bringing up their record in 95 like that was the same team? The bulls just let Horace Grant walk and didn't replace him with anything. Of course your team is going to get worse when you lose the 2nd best player on the team and replace him with basically nothing. Pippen still carried the 95 bulls to the 2nd best defensive team in the league despite terrible defensive players like armstrong and kukoc playing heavy mins. They were also dealing with injuries throughout that 95 year before Jordan returned and had won 8 out of their last 10 before he arrived, so to act like they just turned it around when he came back is fallacy.

[bklynspursfan]

Kawhi isn't close to Pippen as a point guard/play maker and never will be.

This sounds like when everyone said Kawhi could never be an MVP caliber guy or lead a team cause he's a system player talk.

He's improved every single year and added something new to his game. To say he'll never be is awfully premature

I didn't say he hasn't improved, I said it's not in him to be a natural point guard like playmaker in the mould of Pippen or Lebron. They are set up men and it comes natural for them to be that way. They showed these tendencies from a young age. It's not something that suddenly comes to you in your mid to late 20s. I'm not necessarily saying Pippen is a better player, I'm saying they just have different strengths.

I mean you said he'll never come close, and I just don't know if that's true. The great players continue to add to their game. I hear what you're saying though.

The knock on Kawhi was he couldn't shoot coming into the league, and he squashed that theory.& He's actually shown flashes of being more of a play maker last season, and without Parker the first month or 2, it's a strong possibility he'll take on more of that role.

For me it's wait and see vs he'll never get there I guess.

[richboy]

Pippen got screwed in Game 5 of the 1994 ECSF against the Knicks. Bulls should've won that series in 6. The Bulls would've beat them and Indiana, and would've had a tough competitive series against Houston in the Finals. This is all without Jordan.

Why? Because that year, Pippen led the Bulls in Points, Assists, Blocks, and was 2nd in steals. He won All Star MVP and made his first of three All NBA First Team awards. In 1995, he became the second player ever to lead a team in all five stats (Pts, Rebs, Asts, Stls, Blks).

So sorry. Pippen could've been an exceptional first option. Because he did that in '94 and '95.

I love these arguments. The Bulls go out in the second round but somehow they find themselves all the way in the NBA finals. A team with a SRS of 2.8. Mediocre on offense. Pretty much last years OKC Thunder in terms of level of play. The Bulls played in a weak East and went out to a not great Knicks team. Where in those 4 loses to the Knicks they averaged like 85 a game. Including 77 in game 7. Bulls certainly don't get past the knicks in 93 without Pippen playing great throughout the series.

Pippen went 8 for 22 and 1 for 6 from downtown in game 7. He shot 40% in the series. BJ Armstrong and Horace Grant were killing the Knicks and Kukoc made the shot that actually made that even a series. Yet somehow years later Pippen carried them not to a second round battle with the Knicks. No he really took them all the way to the NBA finals if not for a bad call. Oh yeah Nobody ever mentions that the Bulls were 34-31 the following year with Pippen prior to MJ return. Just he would have been an amazing number 1 option. Like I said Pippen somehow has grown into the most overrated player in league history.

Wait...you mean the focus of the best defensive team in the league struggled? Nooooooooo...really? You realize Jordan wasn't exactly lighting it up in the 93 playoffs vs the knicks right? He shot 40% himself in the 93 series and he was the best player in the world. That's without mentioning that if you take away that 54 point explosion in game 4 he was terrible scoring wise and basically taking as many shots as points he was putting up. They certainly don't get past the knicks without Pippens great play in the 93 series. Also, why are you bringing up their record in 95 like that was the same team? The bulls just let Horace Grant walk and didn't replace him with anything. Of course your team is going to get worse when you lose the 2nd best player on the team and replace him with basically nothing. Pippen still carried the 95 bulls to the 2nd best defensive team in the league despite terrible defensive players like armstrong and kukoc playing heavy mins. They were also dealing with injuries throughout that 95 year before Jordan returned and had won 8 out of their last 10 before he arrived, so to act like they just turned it around when he came back is fallacy.

Your can't give me a short sample size and then expect us not to evaluate it. If we was only evaluating MJ on that series we would be doing the exact same thing. Tryign to make a claim that Pippen was a great number 1 option. I'm looking say what is the basis of that argument. The reality it a weak argument because we are not seeing the traits of greatness. We are seeing a good team but nothing special. We are seeing a good player but nothing dominate. Then to say well why we talk about the following year. You want to talk about no MJ Pippen then we should talk about no MJ PIppen entirely. I have been in discussions that Horace Grant was the second best player on the Bulls first 3 peat. The fact the Bulls were not the same team without Grant. He was a big factor in the Magic going to the finals. Then he was out when the Bulls swept them the following year. Bulls had some pretty good talent without MJ and giving all the love to Pippen is just a joke.

The Bulls after MJ return played at a real contender level. They weren't the best team in the league in part because MJ wasn't the same player at first. Still if he had played to MJ standards that team without Rodman and Grant probably goes to the finals. Before MJ that team was going out first round.