D'Antoni: Harden is the best offensive player I've ever seen

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: D'Antoni: Harden is the best offensive player I've ever seen 

Post#141 » by Trophy Husband » Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:24 am

lakerz12 wrote:
Trophy Husband wrote:
lakerz12 wrote:
Is this a serious post?

1) You aren't sure if Kobe was a smart basketball player (he's one of the smartest to ever play)
2) You think he should have copied young MJ as opposed to middle NBA aged MJ who was superior in every aspect to young MJ

Give it up man that is nonsense
I mean have you seen what kind of shots he'd been taking? Are you sure you are a Laker fan?

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I saw almost every game he played and saw him hoist 5 championship trophies.

Ask any of his coaches and teammates and they'd tell you Kobe's basketball IQ was off the charts. But what do they know?
Yeah thate the problem I have with media saying Kobe has high bbiq. Which is far from true lol. There were many times where his teammates were just not engaged because of Kobe and his bad shot selection. Not very smart.

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: D'Antoni: Harden is the best offensive player I've ever seen 

Post#142 » by lakerz12 » Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:28 am

Trophy Husband wrote:
lakerz12 wrote:
Trophy Husband wrote:I mean have you seen what kind of shots he'd been taking? Are you sure you are a Laker fan?

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I saw almost every game he played and saw him hoist 5 championship trophies.

Ask any of his coaches and teammates and they'd tell you Kobe's basketball IQ was off the charts. But what do they know?
Yeah thate the problem I have with media saying Kobe has high bbiq. Which is far from true lol. There were many times where his teammates were just not engaged because of Kobe and his bad shot selection. Not very smart.

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So you must think Kobe would be the absolute GOAT if he had better shot selection?

Since somehow despite poor shot selection and not being very smart, they still won 5 championships?

It's amazing, maybe more players should be as dumb as Kobe?!

Honestly if you and Kobe sat down and watched game footage he would point out 100 things you didn't know existed and would be understanding the game at a PHD level vs. your 5th grade level.

You just don't know what you don't know.

The gross disrespect for Kobe on this forum continues.
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: D'Antoni: Harden is the best offensive player I've ever seen 

Post#143 » by Trophy Husband » Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:29 am

lakerz12 wrote:
Trophy Husband wrote:
lakerz12 wrote:
I saw almost every game he played and saw him hoist 5 championship trophies.

Ask any of his coaches and teammates and they'd tell you Kobe's basketball IQ was off the charts. But what do they know?
Yeah thate the problem I have with media saying Kobe has high bbiq. Which is far from true lol. There were many times where his teammates were just not engaged because of Kobe and his bad shot selection. Not very smart.

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So you must think Kobe would be the absolute GOAT if he had better shot selection?

Since somehow despite poor shot selection and not being very smart, they still won 5 championships?

It's amazing, maybe more players should be as dumb as Kobe?!
His team won 5 rings. If he had a better shot selection, he probably would have won more

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Re: D'Antoni: Harden is the best offensive player I've ever seen 

Post#144 » by reborn123 » Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:35 am

whocurrz wrote:
reborn123 wrote:Harden is legit. If my team drafted him instead of Thabeet, big chance we’d be NBA champions by now.


Man Harden would have been a perfect fit with Conley and Gasol. I’m not sure how Randolph would fit but that core is an amazing fit to build around. Grizzlies FO (whether because of their roster or philosophy) was slow to embrace the style to Harden us been elite under. They needed a guy like him and adding him to their recent core would have made them better but Harden with Randolph and Allen also wouldn’t be the same Harden. They did have Gay though who was a decent asset

Can’t project reality he same way but Love instead of Mayo with Gasol, Conley and Harden would have been nasty.

Gasol and Conley are like the top-grade sidekicks any A-grade superstar could ask for. Grizz used to be a tough-out with just them as our best players, Harden would have brought them to new heights. I honestly don’t think Grizz would have played the same style. Grizz identity started to jell only the latter part of the season after Harden’s rookie year. Love ZBo, but just looking now, Marc Gasol, Love, Harden and Conley if healthy, that’s a great team.
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: D'Antoni: Harden is the best offensive player I've ever seen 

Post#145 » by lakerz12 » Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:37 am

Trophy Husband wrote:
lakerz12 wrote:
Trophy Husband wrote:Yeah thate the problem I have with media saying Kobe has high bbiq. Which is far from true lol. There were many times where his teammates were just not engaged because of Kobe and his bad shot selection. Not very smart.

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So you must think Kobe would be the absolute GOAT if he had better shot selection?

Since somehow despite poor shot selection and not being very smart, they still won 5 championships?

It's amazing, maybe more players should be as dumb as Kobe?!
His team won 5 rings. If he had a better shot selection, he probably would have won more

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Really?

How, being the 1st or 2nd best player for all 5 of those rings could the team win with him having bad shot selection?

Wouldn't a guy shooting 20 times a game with bad shot selection cost them the game?

And yet they won 5 rings...
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: D'Antoni: Harden is the best offensive player I've ever seen 

Post#146 » by Trophy Husband » Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:38 am

lakerz12 wrote:
Trophy Husband wrote:
lakerz12 wrote:
So you must think Kobe would be the absolute GOAT if he had better shot selection?

Since somehow despite poor shot selection and not being very smart, they still won 5 championships?

It's amazing, maybe more players should be as dumb as Kobe?!
His team won 5 rings. If he had a better shot selection, he probably would have won more

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Really?

How, being the 1st or 2nd best player for all 5 of those rings could the team win with him having bad shot selection?

Wouldn't a guy shooting 20 times a game with bad shot selection cost them the game?

And yet they won 5 rings...
Like I said he could've won more if he had a better shot selection

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: D'Antoni: Harden is the best offensive player I've ever seen 

Post#147 » by lakerz12 » Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:43 am

Trophy Husband wrote:
lakerz12 wrote:
Trophy Husband wrote:His team won 5 rings. If he had a better shot selection, he probably would have won more

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Really?

How, being the 1st or 2nd best player for all 5 of those rings could the team win with him having bad shot selection?

Wouldn't a guy shooting 20 times a game with bad shot selection cost them the game?

And yet they won 5 rings...
Like I said he could've won more if he had a better shot selection

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Dumb argument. You're talking about a perennial winner. 5/7 in the Final's. Not a loser.

What year would the Lakers have won that they didn't?

Suggesting that you change the approach of a guy that won 5 rings is stupid.

If you take the Kobe out of Kobe they may have gotten 0 rings.

Say what you want about his shot selection but the results speak for themselves. 5/7. Better than almost any player, ever.
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: D'Antoni: Harden is the best offensive player I've ever seen 

Post#148 » by Trophy Husband » Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:44 am

lakerz12 wrote:
Trophy Husband wrote:
lakerz12 wrote:
Really?

How, being the 1st or 2nd best player for all 5 of those rings could the team win with him having bad shot selection?

Wouldn't a guy shooting 20 times a game with bad shot selection cost them the game?

And yet they won 5 rings...
Like I said he could've won more if he had a better shot selection

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Dumb argument. You're talking about a perennial winner. 5/7 in the Final's. Not a loser.

What year would the Lakers have won that they didn't?

Suggesting that you change the approach of a guy that won 5 rings is stupid.

If you take the Kobe out of Kobe they may have gotten 0 rings.
Im mainly talking about post-shaq era. Kobe only managed to win 2 as the main guy

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: D'Antoni: Harden is the best offensive player I've ever seen 

Post#149 » by lakerz12 » Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:55 am

Trophy Husband wrote:
lakerz12 wrote:
Trophy Husband wrote:Like I said he could've won more if he had a better shot selection

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Dumb argument. You're talking about a perennial winner. 5/7 in the Final's. Not a loser.

What year would the Lakers have won that they didn't?

Suggesting that you change the approach of a guy that won 5 rings is stupid.

If you take the Kobe out of Kobe they may have gotten 0 rings.
Im mainly talking about post-shaq era. Kobe only managed to win 2 as the main guy

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Kobe was arguably the best player for 1 or 2 of the Shaq/Kobe rings.

But even forgetting those, "only managed to win 2 as the main guy"?

Tell that to Karl Malone, John Stockton, Charles Barkley, Allen Iverson, Tmac, Baylor, Chris Paul, etc.

Only 2? Only 5? You're building a case against yourself.
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: D'Antoni: Harden is the best offensive player I've ever seen 

Post#150 » by Trophy Husband » Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:58 am

lakerz12 wrote:
Trophy Husband wrote:
lakerz12 wrote:
Dumb argument. You're talking about a perennial winner. 5/7 in the Final's. Not a loser.

What year would the Lakers have won that they didn't?

Suggesting that you change the approach of a guy that won 5 rings is stupid.

If you take the Kobe out of Kobe they may have gotten 0 rings.
Im mainly talking about post-shaq era. Kobe only managed to win 2 as the main guy

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Kobe was arguably the best player for 1 or 2 of the Shaq/Kobe rings.

But even forgetting those, "only managed to win 2 as the main guy"?

Tell that to Karl Malone, John Stockton, Charles Barkley, Allen Iverson, Tmac, Baylor, Chris Paul, etc.

Only 2? Only 5? You're building a case against yourself.
My man I never said he wasnt great nor a loser. But his shot selection is pretty bad. If you cant see then you are just a homer.

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Re: D'Antoni: Harden is the best offensive player I've ever seen 

Post#151 » by whocurrz » Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:19 am

reborn123 wrote:
whocurrz wrote:
reborn123 wrote:Harden is legit. If my team drafted him instead of Thabeet, big chance we’d be NBA champions by now.


Man Harden would have been a perfect fit with Conley and Gasol. I’m not sure how Randolph would fit but that core is an amazing fit to build around. Grizzlies FO (whether because of their roster or philosophy) was slow to embrace the style to Harden us been elite under. They needed a guy like him and adding him to their recent core would have made them better but Harden with Randolph and Allen also wouldn’t be the same Harden. They did have Gay though who was a decent asset

Can’t project reality he same way but Love instead of Mayo with Gasol, Conley and Harden would have been nasty.

Gasol and Conley are like the top-grade sidekicks any A-grade superstar could ask for. Grizz used to be a tough-out with just them as our best players, Harden would have brought them to new heights. I honestly don’t think Grizz would have played the same style. Grizz identity started to jell only the latter part of the season after Harden’s rookie year. Love ZBo, but just looking now, Marc Gasol, Love, Harden and Conley if healthy, that’s a great team.


Yeah with a great coach that is a championship core. Harden and Love would be weak links on defense but the passing shooting, IQ, off all ability and defense (I mean Randolph wasn’t really a better defender than Love) is the type of star talent that works and probably maximizes each other. Conley and Gasol aren’t first options but both elite 3rd options (capable 2nd but not great and elite fits as as 3rd) who Bring other skills to the table.

And although I mentioned they’d need a bit of a philosophy change having their defense with a guy who could push the ball off of stops like Harden would have been huge
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Re: D'Antoni: Harden is the best offensive player I've ever seen 

Post#152 » by Jables » Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:59 am

LarsV8 wrote:The league has never really seen this level of scoring volume, passing and efficiency.

You have got Oscar, Lebron and Harden, and that's it.

And I'm sorry Kobe fans, but Harden is just flat out better.

Too many bad shots and poor decision making on Kobe's part.

I respect Harden's game, but I honestly can't even imagine Kobe losing the way Harden does in the playoffs every year. He was significantly above Harden on both ends of the court. If you take control of your teams offense, you gotta win to surpass the greats. There are two significant factors in Kobe's favor, one is turnovers despite his often higher usage rate and not setting records in a bad way every year or so, the other is you could put the ball in his hands in an extremely tough situation and be confident he can score, it's no secret Harden screws up a lot in the clutch. I ain't gonna get into success TOO much, Harden still has time.

It's fine for D'Antoni to pump up his player though.
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Re: D'Antoni: Harden is the best offensive player I've ever seen 

Post#153 » by MemphisX » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:07 am

Yeah, until he can maintain the same offensive output deep into the playoffs, he ain’t even top 5.
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Re: D'Antoni: Harden is the best offensive player I've ever seen 

Post#154 » by Dupp » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:17 am

Fair assessment.
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Re: D'Antoni: Harden is the best offensive player I've ever seen 

Post#155 » by naabzor » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:20 am

Has Michael Jeffrey Jordan been wiped from existence?
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: D'Antoni: Harden is the best offensive player I've ever seen 

Post#156 » by HollowEarth » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:48 am

lakerz12 wrote:
Trophy Husband wrote:
lakerz12 wrote:
Dumb argument. You're talking about a perennial winner. 5/7 in the Final's. Not a loser.

What year would the Lakers have won that they didn't?

Suggesting that you change the approach of a guy that won 5 rings is stupid.

If you take the Kobe out of Kobe they may have gotten 0 rings.
Im mainly talking about post-shaq era. Kobe only managed to win 2 as the main guy

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Kobe was arguably the best player for 1 or 2 of the Shaq/Kobe rings.

But even forgetting those, "only managed to win 2 as the main guy"?

Tell that to Karl Malone, John Stockton, Charles Barkley, Allen Iverson, Tmac, Baylor, Chris Paul, etc.

Only 2? Only 5? You're building a case against yourself.

I went to a lakers game when I was a little kid and brought a lakers ball to get Kobe to autograph it and I taped a sharpie to it and everything. Then after the game I passed it to Kobe and asked for an autograph but he just turned around and did a fade-away into the tunnel, Kobe wasn't even on the court anymore but he just launched the ball towards the goal with the marker still taped on and everything, and I almost cried but Karl Malone, "Hey Kid, It Happens to the Best of Us."
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Re: D'Antoni: Harden is the best offensive player I've ever seen 

Post#157 » by gmoney411 » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:17 am

Jables wrote:
LarsV8 wrote:The league has never really seen this level of scoring volume, passing and efficiency.

You have got Oscar, Lebron and Harden, and that's it.

And I'm sorry Kobe fans, but Harden is just flat out better.

Too many bad shots and poor decision making on Kobe's part.

I respect Harden's game, but I honestly can't even imagine Kobe losing the way Harden does in the playoffs every year. He was significantly above Harden on both ends of the court. If you take control of your teams offense, you gotta win to surpass the greats. There are two significant factors in Kobe's favor, one is turnovers despite his often higher usage rate and not setting records in a bad way every year or so, the other is you could put the ball in his hands in an extremely tough situation and be confident he can score, it's no secret Harden screws up a lot in the clutch. I ain't gonna get into success TOO much, Harden still has time.

It's fine for D'Antoni to pump up his player though.


You don't have to imagine it if you followed Kobe's career. He quit on his team just like Harden did. He played terribly in the finals before which contributed to his team losing. He also shot poorly in several playoff series. I love Kobe, but he had his fair share of playoff failures.
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: D'Antoni: Harden is the best offensive player I've ever seen 

Post#158 » by lakerz12 » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:45 pm

Trophy Husband wrote:
lakerz12 wrote:
Trophy Husband wrote:Im mainly talking about post-shaq era. Kobe only managed to win 2 as the main guy

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Kobe was arguably the best player for 1 or 2 of the Shaq/Kobe rings.

But even forgetting those, "only managed to win 2 as the main guy"?

Tell that to Karl Malone, John Stockton, Charles Barkley, Allen Iverson, Tmac, Baylor, Chris Paul, etc.

Only 2? Only 5? You're building a case against yourself.
My man I never said he wasnt great nor a loser. But his shot selection is pretty bad. If you cant see then you are just a homer.

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And yet you present no data to support your biased opinion. I'm just supposed to trust that you watched every shot he took and were capable of making that judgment. You must be Phil Jackson or Tex Winter?

What's crazy is that from 2000-2013, Kobe finished top 10 in the league for PER 11 times.

11 out of 13 seasons he was top 10 in the league in a statistic that measures a player's efficiency and subtracts negative accomplishments from their score.

How could a guy that took a lot of shots be top 10 in PER if he had bad shot selection?

He must have made a ton of "bad shots" or everyone else in the league must be terribly inefficient and also taking a ton of bad shots.

It just doesn't add up.
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: D'Antoni: Harden is the best offensive player I've ever seen 

Post#159 » by alebaba » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:54 pm

lakerz12 wrote:
Trophy Husband wrote:
lakerz12 wrote:
Kobe was arguably the best player for 1 or 2 of the Shaq/Kobe rings.

But even forgetting those, "only managed to win 2 as the main guy"?

Tell that to Karl Malone, John Stockton, Charles Barkley, Allen Iverson, Tmac, Baylor, Chris Paul, etc.

Only 2? Only 5? You're building a case against yourself.
My man I never said he wasnt great nor a loser. But his shot selection is pretty bad. If you cant see then you are just a homer.

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And yet you present no data to support your biased opinion. I'm just supposed to trust that you watched every shot he took and were capable of making that judgment. You must be Phil Jackson or Tex Winter?

What's crazy is that from 2000-2013, Kobe finished top 10 in the league for PER 11 times.

11 out of 13 seasons he was top 10 in the league in a statistic that measures a player's efficiency and subtracts negative accomplishments from their score.

How could a guy that took a lot of shots be top 10 in PER if he had bad shot selection?

He must have made a ton of "bad shots" or everyone else in the league must be terribly inefficient and also taking a ton of bad shots.

It just doesn't add up.


Dude, everybody and their moma know Kobe has poor shot selection, stop being a homer. Just take the L and move on...
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: D'Antoni: Harden is the best offensive player I've ever seen 

Post#160 » by lakerz12 » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:57 pm

alebaba wrote:
lakerz12 wrote:
Trophy Husband wrote:My man I never said he wasnt great nor a loser. But his shot selection is pretty bad. If you cant see then you are just a homer.

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And yet you present no data to support your biased opinion. I'm just supposed to trust that you watched every shot he took and were capable of making that judgment. You must be Phil Jackson or Tex Winter?

What's crazy is that from 2000-2013, Kobe finished top 10 in the league for PER 11 times.

11 out of 13 seasons he was top 10 in the league in a statistic that measures a player's efficiency and subtracts negative accomplishments from their score.

How could a guy that took a lot of shots be top 10 in PER if he had bad shot selection?

He must have made a ton of "bad shots" or everyone else in the league must be terribly inefficient and also taking a ton of bad shots.

It just doesn't add up.


Dude, everybody and their moma know Kobe has poor shot selection, stop being a homer. Just take the L and move on...


He took a lot of shots that could be considered very difficult for most shooting guards. For him, they were often not bad shots. Sometimes they were. But no more than any shooting guard who carries the role of taking a lot of perimeter shots.

The idea that he took an inordinate amount of bad shots is a myth accepted by Realgmer's who are committed to thinking Kobe was less of a player than he was.

Other myths are that Shaq carried him and that he was grossly inefficient (even though stats prove otherwise). It's a pattern.

And it's not fair to call me a "homer" when I'm presenting facts. Just shows you have nothing to prove your argument. "Everybody knows it's true" is not a good argument. Everybody thought the earth was flat at one point too. Everybody thought the housing market was strong in 2007. Everybody thinks everything is true until it becomes painfully obvious it's not. It's called groupthink. Happens all the time on this forum.

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