D'Antoni: Harden is the best offensive player I've ever seen

[MaxRider]

Has Michael Jeffrey Jordan been wiped from existence?

lost in re-quote
in D'Antoni interview it was best offensive player he coached

[John Murdoch]

The league has never really seen this level of scoring volume, passing and efficiency.

You have got Oscar, Lebron and Harden, and that's it.

And I'm sorry Kobe fans, but Harden is just flat out better.

Too many bad shots and poor decision making on Kobe's part.

Thats like comparing Barkley to Duncan

[Rednation91]

Yeah, until he can maintain the same offensive output deep into the playoffs, he ain’t even top 5.

27.9ppg on 44.3/36.5/85.5 and 52.2efg/60.9ts%
27.3ppg on 41.3/32.3/88.1 and 48.1efg/57.9ts%
It's closer than u think. Basically the thing he gets worse at is his 3pt shot and a slight(0.4 to) uptick in turnovers

[evilpimp972]

Well, from ages 25 to Hardens current age of 28, Harden is better than Kobe was at the same age offensively. Kobe never had a season as good as Harden is having this year.[/b] By the time D'antoni got to LA, Kobe wasnt as good as Harden is now.

He's already surpassed Nash's peak (who wasnt a star until his 30's)

Highly debatable.

Kobe averaged 35.4 pts, 4.5 ast, 5.3 Rebs, with 2.3 3ptm at age 27.

If Kobe played in this D'antoni offense next to Chris Paul in this era, his numbers would almost certainly be higher than they were.

This is where the mere counting stats don't tell the whole story, and one needs to look at advanced metrics to understand the full picture.

Kobe averaged 35 points on 27 shots while playing 41 MPG.

Harden is averaging 31 points on 20 shots while playing 36 MPG, and almost averaging double the assists.

This is why Harden blows Kobe out of water in terms of efficiency metrics, such as PER, WS/48, TS%, etc. And he's doing all of this while leading the team that's on pace to win 67 games.

At this point, it's not really controversial thing to say that Harden has already surpassed Kobe's regular season peak.

You cannot use efficiency though, you have to adjust to the league average.
Im not even mentioning the handcheck rules, but if Kobe was taking 10 threes a game, his efficiency would be much better.
Harden in this era? Well he wouldve shot more long 2s like EVERYBODY did

[cdubbz]

As of right now this season Harden is arguably the best offensive player. Westbrook is up there and LeBron.

[red96]

Highly debatable.

Kobe averaged 35.4 pts, 4.5 ast, 5.3 Rebs, with 2.3 3ptm at age 27.

If Kobe played in this D'antoni offense next to Chris Paul in this era, his numbers would almost certainly be higher than they were.

This is where the mere counting stats don't tell the whole story, and one needs to look at advanced metrics to understand the full picture.

Kobe averaged 35 points on 27 shots while playing 41 MPG.

Harden is averaging 31 points on 20 shots while playing 36 MPG, and almost averaging double the assists.

This is why Harden blows Kobe out of water in terms of efficiency metrics, such as PER, WS/48, TS%, etc. And he's doing all of this while leading the team that's on pace to win 67 games.

At this point, it's not really controversial thing to say that Harden has already surpassed Kobe's regular season peak.

You cannot use efficiency though, you have to adjust to the league average.
Im not even mentioning the handcheck rules, but if Kobe was taking 10 threes a game, his efficiency would be much better.
Harden in this era? Well he wouldve shot more long 2s like EVERYBODY did

That's BS. No one does that when comparing players. They arent even from completely different era's. They played in the league together for 7 years.

Kobe taking more 3's to up his efficiency is nonsense. In Kobe's 20 year career he only shot over .351 3p% 3 times. Harden has already done it 6 times. Kobe only shot at/over .347 3p% 5 times. That is the lowest 3p% Harden has ever shot from 3. Harden hit that mark or better 9 times, he shoots more 3's a game, and he'll probably play at least another 8 years. The gap will only get larger. Harden never had a goat bigman like Shaq to get him easy looks from deep. Kobe had his best 3p% year in 02-03 with Shaq. Kobe was never as deadly as Harden is from deep. That book is closed.

Kobe played 12 years with the hand-check rule. He was 25-26 when it was implemented. You Kobe fans are grasping at straws.

[evilpimp972]

This is where the mere counting stats don't tell the whole story, and one needs to look at advanced metrics to understand the full picture.

Kobe averaged 35 points on 27 shots while playing 41 MPG.

Harden is averaging 31 points on 20 shots while playing 36 MPG, and almost averaging double the assists.

This is why Harden blows Kobe out of water in terms of efficiency metrics, such as PER, WS/48, TS%, etc. And he's doing all of this while leading the team that's on pace to win 67 games.

At this point, it's not really controversial thing to say that Harden has already surpassed Kobe's regular season peak.

You cannot use efficiency though, you have to adjust to the league average.
Im not even mentioning the handcheck rules, but if Kobe was taking 10 threes a game, his efficiency would be much better.
Harden in this era? Well he wouldve shot more long 2s like EVERYBODY did

That's BS. No one does that when comparing players. They arent even from completely different era's. They played in the league together for 7 years.

Kobe taking more 3's to up his efficiency is nonsense. In Kobe's 20 year career he only shot over .351 3p% 3 times. Harden has already done it 6 times. Kobe only shot at/over .347 3p% 5 times. That is the lowest 3p% Harden has ever shot from 3. Harden hit that mark or better 9 times, he shoots more 3's a game, and he'll probably play at least another 8 years. The gap will only get larger. Harden never had a goat bigman like Shaq to get him easy looks from deep. Kobe had his best 3p% year in 02-03 with Shaq. Kobe was never as deadly as Harden is from deep. That book is closed.

Kobe played 12 years with the hand-check rule. He was 25-26 when it was implemented. You Kobe fans are grasping at straws.

These are fact that the ORTG and TS % of the league is going up every damn year
By your logic, IT just had a better peak than Iverson, yuck

[theonlyclutch]

You cannot use efficiency though, you have to adjust to the league average.
Im not even mentioning the handcheck rules, but if Kobe was taking 10 threes a game, his efficiency would be much better.
Harden in this era? Well he wouldve shot more long 2s like EVERYBODY did

That's BS. No one does that when comparing players. They arent even from completely different era's. They played in the league together for 7 years.

Kobe taking more 3's to up his efficiency is nonsense. In Kobe's 20 year career he only shot over .351 3p% 3 times. Harden has already done it 6 times. Kobe only shot at/over .347 3p% 5 times. That is the lowest 3p% Harden has ever shot from 3. Harden hit that mark or better 9 times, he shoots more 3's a game, and he'll probably play at least another 8 years. The gap will only get larger. Harden never had a goat bigman like Shaq to get him easy looks from deep. Kobe had his best 3p% year in 02-03 with Shaq. Kobe was never as deadly as Harden is from deep. That book is closed.

Kobe played 12 years with the hand-check rule. He was 25-26 when it was implemented. You Kobe fans are grasping at straws.

These are fact that the ORTG and TS % of the league is going up every damn year
By your logic, IT just had a better peak than Iverson, yuck

And how does that fact of yours make Kobe suddenly able to nail lots of off-the-dribble 3s at a higher rate than he has constantly done?

From 01-13, Kobe has been assisted on less than 60% of his 3s once in 13 seasons, his 3P% was 33.6%.

From 13-18, Harden has been assisted on less than 50% of his 3s in four of six seasons, his 3P% was 36.4%.

Yeah its pretty obvious that Harden is just a straight up better shooter regardless of era.

[red96]

You cannot use efficiency though, you have to adjust to the league average.
Im not even mentioning the handcheck rules, but if Kobe was taking 10 threes a game, his efficiency would be much better.
Harden in this era? Well he wouldve shot more long 2s like EVERYBODY did

That's BS. No one does that when comparing players. They arent even from completely different era's. They played in the league together for 7 years.

Kobe taking more 3's to up his efficiency is nonsense. In Kobe's 20 year career he only shot over .351 3p% 3 times. Harden has already done it 6 times. Kobe only shot at/over .347 3p% 5 times. That is the lowest 3p% Harden has ever shot from 3. Harden hit that mark or better 9 times, he shoots more 3's a game, and he'll probably play at least another 8 years. The gap will only get larger. Harden never had a goat bigman like Shaq to get him easy looks from deep. Kobe had his best 3p% year in 02-03 with Shaq. Kobe was never as deadly as Harden is from deep. That book is closed.

Kobe played 12 years with the hand-check rule. He was 25-26 when it was implemented. You Kobe fans are grasping at straws.

These are fact that the ORTG and TS % of the league is going up every damn year
By your logic, IT just had a better peak than Iverson, yuck

In case you missed it, IT was great last season and a MVP candidate. IT was a great scorer last season. Scoring wise HE WAS better than Iverson in any one year from almost everywhere. Iverson was great, but he was never the most efficient player. He was flashier though.

Sorry to break it to you, but each generation of nba players are generally better than the last. 50/60's< 70/80's<90/00's in general talent overall. The league gets better, what a concept.

By your logic we should retroactively add the modern nba's bigmen games to Wilt and Russell and discuss what they might've been as fact. Are you joking? You just cant do that.

I used facts to prove that Kobe was never the shooter Harden was. You have failed to prove otherwise.

[evilpimp972]

That's BS. No one does that when comparing players. They arent even from completely different era's. They played in the league together for 7 years.

Kobe taking more 3's to up his efficiency is nonsense. In Kobe's 20 year career he only shot over .351 3p% 3 times. Harden has already done it 6 times. Kobe only shot at/over .347 3p% 5 times. That is the lowest 3p% Harden has ever shot from 3. Harden hit that mark or better 9 times, he shoots more 3's a game, and he'll probably play at least another 8 years. The gap will only get larger. Harden never had a goat bigman like Shaq to get him easy looks from deep. Kobe had his best 3p% year in 02-03 with Shaq. Kobe was never as deadly as Harden is from deep. That book is closed.

Kobe played 12 years with the hand-check rule. He was 25-26 when it was implemented. You Kobe fans are grasping at straws.

These are fact that the ORTG and TS % of the league is going up every damn year
By your logic, IT just had a better peak than Iverson, yuck

In case you missed it, IT was great last season and a MVP candidate. IT was a great scorer last season. Scoring wise HE WAS better than Iverson in any one year from almost everywhere. Iverson was great, but he was never the most efficient player. He was flashier though.

Sorry to break it to you, but each generation of nba players are generally better than the last. 50/60's< 70/80's<90/00's in general talent overall. The league gets better, what a concept.

By your logic we should retroactively add the modern nba's bigmen games to Wilt and Russell and discuss what they might've been as fact. Are you joking? You just cant do that.

I used facts to prove that Kobe was never the shooter Harden was. You have failed to prove otherwise.

Ive never said that Kobe is a better shooter than Harden, Ive just told you to use CONTEXT when using efficiency stats.
Harden is a better shooter than LBJ too but not a better offensive player.
You failed to realize the difference between eras, a guy like Iverson was 10 time the player IT was, but he still couldnt get to his TS%. But look at the TS% during the season, incredibly low. So what was it? Better defense?
There's a reason oscar robertson isnt considered a top 10 player despire his 30 pts triple double career (look at the pace!)
We are doing more than just analysing stats, you cant tell me thats the same game than in the early 2000s.

[TMU]

Let's assume that we can't compare Harden and Kobe because they played in a "different" era. So, aside from PPG (which is clearly affected by his shot attempts), give me one statistical measure (a non-total stat) that Kobe Bryant led while playing for this league. The answer to this question is the reason why his fans don't believe in stats and claim they have their 20/200 vision is great. Dude wasn't even the best player in 2008.

[-TheDocOfDenial]

Comparing a playoff chocker to a dude who killed the spurs every time they played and is a 5 time champion and 2 time FMVP is blasphemous lmao. CP3 is better than any player kobe played with except shaq. Lets see what happens this year.

[OdomFan]

Just kissing his starters ass. It's good for team chemistry.

[red96]

These are fact that the ORTG and TS % of the league is going up every damn year
By your logic, IT just had a better peak than Iverson, yuck

In case you missed it, IT was great last season and a MVP candidate. IT was a great scorer last season. Scoring wise HE WAS better than Iverson in any one year from almost everywhere. Iverson was great, but he was never the most efficient player. He was flashier though.

Sorry to break it to you, but each generation of nba players are generally better than the last. 50/60's< 70/80's<90/00's in general talent overall. The league gets better, what a concept.

By your logic we should retroactively add the modern nba's bigmen games to Wilt and Russell and discuss what they might've been as fact. Are you joking? You just cant do that.

I used facts to prove that Kobe was never the shooter Harden was. You have failed to prove otherwise.

Ive never said that Kobe is a better shooter than Harden, Ive just told you to use CONTEXT when using efficiency stats.
Harden is a better shooter than LBJ too but not a better offensive player.
You failed to realize the difference between eras, a guy like Iverson was 10 time the player IT was, but he still couldnt get to his TS%. But look at the TS% during the season, incredibly low. So what was it? Better defense?
There's a reason oscar robertson isnt considered a top 10 player despire his 30 pts triple double career (look at the pace!)
We are doing more than just analysing stats, you cant tell me thats the same game than in the early 2000s.

Lebron is a 6'9, muscle bound monster in the paint(way better than Harden and Kobe there), who can hit the 3, and is just as good a passer as Harden, that's why. James is better than Kobe and Harden because he does it all.
Kobe was a great scorer who could make plays if he needed/wanted to. Harden is better offensively in the timespan I stated because he's a better deep shooter(and off the dribble), gets to the line more, and is a better facilitator than Kobe was. Harden's craftiness is of his own making. None of that has to do with era. The era didn't make Kobe take circus shots(which were spectacular), or be as stingy as he was with the ball. That was just Kobe being Kobe.

Iverson was always high volume scorer,high energy, hustling, inefficient star. That isn't a revelation. Last year may have been a flash in the pan season for IT, but he was amazing. He played like a superstar. Iverson will have 10x's the career, but never as good an individual season a IT last season.
No decade is the same. You want to analyze the game in a way that isn't done.

[The_Hater]

Read on Twitter

Some next level praise right there, especially considering he coached Steve Nash.

Thoughts?

Well Harden is much better offensively than Nash, and Nash is my favourite player ever.

Harden definitley deserves to be in the conversation, I’ve never seen a player make scoring the ball look so easy. He always seems to be in control of what he’s doing and he’s always half a step in front of the defense.

[The_Hater]

Comparing a playoff chocker to a dude who killed the spurs every time they played and is a 5 time champion and 2 time FMVP is blasphemous lmao. CP3 is better than any player kobe played with except shaq. Lets see what happens this year.

Harden has the 3rd best TS% in playoff history. The choker.

[whocurrz]

Yeah, until he can maintain the same offensive output deep into the playoffs, he ain’t even top 5.

27.9ppg on 44.3/36.5/85.5 and 52.2efg/60.9ts%
27.3ppg on 41.3/32.3/88.1 and 48.1efg/57.9ts%
It's closer than u think. Basically the thing he gets worse at is his 3pt shot and a slight(0.4 to) uptick in turnovers

I think this narrative is more of an assumption because people remember the result Of his bad elimination games against warriors in 2015 and spurs last year. People always say he won’t get to the line As much too when he does just fine in that regard. But those two were bad outings in elimination games so he gets unfairly ridiculed. Just like guys who lose in the FINALS get called losers despite the fact that they made it to the final 2 in a sport that historically has less variance in champions. People always say Curry was terrible in the 2015 finals too because he had the bad game 2 against Delevadova despite him averaging something like 26 points on 60 TS% with amazing 4th quarter stars.

[Saru]

Read on Twitter

Some next level praise right there, especially considering he coached Steve Nash.

Thoughts?

you forgot Kobe

Well, from ages 25 to Hardens current age of 28, Harden is better than Kobe was at the same age offensively. Kobe never had a season as good as Harden is having this year. By the time D'antoni got to LA, Kobe wasnt as good as Harden is now.

He's already surpassed Nash's peak (who wasnt a star until his 30's)

Thanks for the laughs tho, never had one for the whole month.

[Pennebaker]

Read on Twitter

Some next level praise right there, especially considering he coached Steve Nash.

Thoughts?

He's kind of obligated to say that as his coach when Harden is playing like he is and pushing for MVP votes.

Now, he might change his mind after the playoffs, but we'll see.

[red96]

you forgot Kobe

Well, from ages 25 to Hardens current age of 28, Harden is better than Kobe was at the same age offensively. Kobe never had a season as good as Harden is having this year. By the time D'antoni got to LA, Kobe wasnt as good as Harden is now.

He's already surpassed Nash's peak (who wasnt a star until his 30's)

Thanks for the laughs tho, never had one for the whole month.

When you're done laughing at nothing prove me wrong.