Spurs could've won more titles in the Tim Duncan era.

[CoachPop]

Per minute - peak or prime - Manu was far better than Parker. I actually think that Manu was possibly one of the top 2 or 3 players in the world for a very brief period circa 2005. He could hang with Duncan, Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Dirk, or whoever you could name. But if you look at their overall career NBA contributions, it becomes a legit argument, and I would put Parker slightly ahead.

EDIT: '05, '06, or '07. Somewhere in there. (Maybe a hardcore Spurs fan could fill me in on when he peaked.) I remember thinking it at the time, and the numbers (again, per-minute) and eye test bear it out. I don't doubt he could have carried a strong supporting cast to a title at some point in that span, if he'd been on a different team.

EDIT 2: In the 2005 postseason, Manu was 2nd in WS/48 and 3rd in BPM. In the 2007 regular season, he was 2nd in WS/48 and 2nd in BPM. So, take your pick, I guess. Bottom line, in his prime, he was capable of dominating. I don't think Parker was ever quite on that level.

Manu peaked in terms of his NBA play in the '05 season. I'll go to my grave feeling completely justified in my belief that his '05 playoffs were right up there with the greatest playoff runs any star player has put together. People forget how good and tough that '05 Sonics team was because they were a bit of a flash in the pan, but they were a very tough team that year, and a truly believe they would have steamrolled the Suns, and absolutely could have taken Detroit in a 7 game series. Interesting food for thought if things had played out that way, and so whether, with a recent championship, the team would have been moved to OKC a few years later.

But that was a "give Manu the ball and get out of his way" in crunch time type of series, super close games, super physical, very low margin for error. Duncan was amazing that series as well of course, particularly playing on two bad ankles. Taking nothing away from him. But I still get chills thinking how dominant Manu was that entire playoff run. As a fan watching the team, Manu felt absolutely shoulder to shoulder with Duncan during those playoffs (and plenty of other times during that span as well), and that's no small praise considering how you'd expect a Spurs fan to feel about Duncan.

Tony was and is a great Spur, but his game was always a little more one dimensional that Manu's. Granted, he as fantastic with that one dimension (getting into the paint), and he did work hard to improve his jumper, and then his corner 3, over the course of his career, but Tony was a player other teams could gameplan for. Take away his drive and it made things difficult on him. Manu, on the other hand, was impossible to gameplan for. You try to take away one thing, and he'll kill you a dozen different ways.

Taking absolutely nothing away from Tony, as he as an awesome Spur and meant so much to the team's success and championships, but he's a tier below Manu in most all observant Spurs fans' minds.

[GameBredAPBT]

Duncan's peak is definitely underrated. It's always "I'll take X player's peak but Duncan's longevity" when there really isn't many players who peaked higher than Duncan. He doesn't have insane stats, but when you dig deep, especially in the playoffs, he blows other top 20 guys out of the water in terms of impact stats.

Underrated? He's the consensus greatest PF of all time

[DROB27]

Put prime Tony Parker & Manu on other teams. How do they fare? They were a product of the Spurs system, the Tim Duncan system to be precise.

manu would be even better anywhere else

It's hard to tell since we never got to witness him on another team, but he was barely drafted - not a highly touted prospect. He was amazing no doubt, but I don't think he'd fare well as a first option on another team. He had his deficiencies, like being an average athlete, etc.

Prime Manu isn’t some average athelete that’s just silly .

What does barley being drafted have to do with anything? He clearly improved by the time he came into the league.

European players weren’t even heavy covered by scouts back then, that played a huge factor in him going so low.

[scrabbarista]

Put prime Tony Parker & Manu on other teams. How do they fare? They were a product of the Spurs system, the Tim Duncan system to be precise.

manu would be even better anywhere else

It's hard to tell since we never got to witness him on another team, but he was barely drafted - not a highly touted prospect. He was amazing no doubt, but I don't think he'd fare well as a first option on another team. He had his deficiencies, like being an average athlete, etc.

Against a pretty decent opponent:

Watch on YouTube

Also, "not a highly touted prospect" is pretty arguable. He was already considered the Michael Jordan of Argentina when the Spurs drafted him. My guess is he was drafted late because there were questions about whether/when he would come to the NBA, moreso than because of his talent.

And "average athlete" just left my jaw dropped. Don't know what to tell you on that one, if you can't see it for yourself.

[GameBredAPBT]

Agreed overall, but Tony Parker during his prime was the best dribble penetrator I've ever seen. This man's finishing ability was on another level. Manu is better than him but Parker is a fantastic 3rd option.

And he absolutely was an elite athlete. He was one of the fastest players in the league during his team and his body control was up there with the best.

I made a thread asking for an argument for Parker being the greatest PG ever, and some goof compared him to Derek Fisher (obvious troll job), and I was banned for calling him out, haha.

Parker was amazing. 4 rings as one of the top three players on his team.

[scrabbarista]

Put prime Tony Parker & Manu on other teams. How do they fare? They were a product of the Spurs system, the Tim Duncan system to be precise.

manu would be even better anywhere else

It's hard to tell since we never got to witness him on another team, but he was barely drafted - not a highly touted prospect. He was amazing no doubt, but I don't think he'd fare well as a first option on another team. He had his deficiencies, like being an average athlete, etc.

Manu has had 41 career 30 point games, sixteen of those off the bench. And he's a playmaker, not a pure scorer.


2007 Top Six in WS/48:

1. Dirk Nowitzki
2. Manu Ginobili
3. Tim Duncan
4. Steve Nash
5, Yao Ming
6. Dwyane Wade


2007 Top Six in BPM:

1. Dwyane Wade
2. LeBron James
3. Manu Ginobili
4. Tim Duncan
5. Dirk Nowitzki
6. Tracy McGrady


Put some respek.

[JJ_PR]

manu would be even better anywhere else

It's hard to tell since we never got to witness him on another team, but he was barely drafted - not a highly touted prospect. He was amazing no doubt, but I don't think he'd fare well as a first option on another team. He had his deficiencies, like being an average athlete, etc.

Against a pretty decent opponent:

Watch on YouTube

Also, "not a highly touted prospect" is pretty arguable. He was already considered the Michael Jordan of Argentina when the Spurs drafted him. My guess is he was drafted late because there were questions about whether/when he would come to the NBA, moreso than because of his talent.

And "average athlete" just left my jaw dropped. Don't know what to tell you on that one, if you can't see it for yourself.

Nemanja Nedovic was supposedly the second coming of Derrick Rose. Bruno Caboclo wad touted as the Brazilian Kevin Durant. Not always do these hyped up international players pan out.

I may be underrating Ginobili's athletic ability though. He's alot like James Harden & Kyrie Irving in that regard. They're more like "sneaky" good athletes that don't often show it off.

[G35]

This thread isn't intended to undermine what the Spurs achieved during that span - 5 titles is a heck of an accomplishment.

What people fail to mention is that Duncan carried the Spurs his whole career. From the moment he was drafted, the Spurs were instantly contenders.

Something that goes unnoticed is his supporting cast. The second best teammate he ever had was Manu Ginobili! David Robinson was well past his prime.

I understand the argument that they had a goat coach, but Popovich is just that... a coach. He's no magician that can magically help the Spurs get W's. His players need to step it up.

Tony Parker? A decent but not elite athlete, good team defender but not great either.

There's a reason Duncan is on many people's top 10. He was not flashy, but he was so good.

If I had to choose between him and Shaq in their primes, give me Tim Duncan.

He's the most underrated player of his generation, maybe all generations.

What is impressive is he did it all with the same team. He did it under one of the most demanding coaches in the league and one of the smallest markets and fiscally responsible owner. The Spurs did acquire their talent through the draft, not throwing tantrums saying he needs more help, or that his teammates aren't good enough when they get eliminated.

Duncan would just come back and see whatever he could do to make the team better. If they needed him to score he did that, if they needed him to play out of the high post he did that, if they needed to make Parker or Ginobli more of the focus he did that. He didn't mind sacrificing his stats and awards to help the team win. No one can say that Duncan was not the best player on the team in 2007, yet he let Tony Parker lead the offense.

When Pop decided to go to a motion offense in 2010, Duncan didn't complain, he didn't go to the media and say that we have to figure it out. Even I thought the Spurs were done after the Grizzlies beat them in the first round and then the Thunder beat them in the WCF's. I thought they were too old and couldn't compete with the young guns no more. Tim Duncan proved me wrong and he had more to give, he was a leader at all times.

People want to give Pop all this credit for the Spurs and that he is this great coach but look what is happening after Tim retired. There was never any controversy from Kawhi while Tim was there, now Pop can't even get along with his best player.

Tim Duncan is a top five player easy and you can argue even higher......

[mixerball]

Put prime Tony Parker & Manu on other teams. How do they fare? They were a product of the Spurs system, the Tim Duncan system to be precise.

manu would be even better anywhere else

It's hard to tell since we never got to witness him on another team, but he was barely drafted - not a highly touted prospect. He was amazing no doubt, but I don't think he'd fare well as a first option on another team. He had his deficiencies, like being an average athlete, etc.

he did a lot of things in his career cause he was an above average athlete. did you actually see prime ginobili play?

[Cavsfansince84]

manu would be even better anywhere else

It's hard to tell since we never got to witness him on another team, but he was barely drafted - not a highly touted prospect. He was amazing no doubt, but I don't think he'd fare well as a first option on another team. He had his deficiencies, like being an average athlete, etc.

he did a lot of things in his career cause he was an above average athlete. did you actually see prime ginobili play?

Ya, for a 6-7 guy he without a doubt was a great athlete. He could get to the rim against just about anybody and throw down huge dunks on their heads. He was above average even by nba standards.

[scrabbarista]

It's hard to tell since we never got to witness him on another team, but he was barely drafted - not a highly touted prospect. He was amazing no doubt, but I don't think he'd fare well as a first option on another team. He had his deficiencies, like being an average athlete, etc.

Against a pretty decent opponent:

Watch on YouTube

Also, "not a highly touted prospect" is pretty arguable. He was already considered the Michael Jordan of Argentina when the Spurs drafted him. My guess is he was drafted late because there were questions about whether/when he would come to the NBA, moreso than because of his talent.

And "average athlete" just left my jaw dropped. Don't know what to tell you on that one, if you can't see it for yourself.

Nemanja Nedovic was supposedly the second coming of Derrick Rose. Bruno Caboclo wad touted as the Brazilian Kevin Durant. Not always do these hyped up international players pan out.

I may be underrating Ginobili's athletic ability though. He's alot like James Harden & Kyrie Irving in that regard. They're more like "sneaky" good athletes that don't often show it off.

Caboclo may have been compared to Durant in terms of potential, by a few people wanting to highlight his upside. I've never heard of Nedovic, so that alone tells me nobody whose opinion matters (on this side of the planet, at least) thought he was the next Derrick Rose. I'm not saying some people called Ginobili "Jordan-like." I'm saying he was known as "the Michael Jordan of Argentina." This wasn't a single scout's opinion, this was more like a nickname. I agree that Harden is a great comparison for Ginobili's athletic ability. Clearly above average, imo. Just not "above average" for a superstar. I remember seeing Rockets v. Shanghai Sharks in the preseason, 2016. I was sitting in the nosebleeds, and it was obvious from that distance that Harden was the most physically gifted player on the court. I've never seen Ginobili live, but I'd imagine that if you'd put him on the floor in his prime with Capela, Ariza, Gordon, etc., plus the Shanghai Sharks, he would have stuck out just as much. And not just for his game - for his physical gifts.

[dautjazz]

This thread isn't intended to undermine what the Spurs achieved during that span - 5 titles is a heck of an accomplishment.

What people fail to mention is that Duncan carried the Spurs his whole career. From the moment he was drafted, the Spurs were instantly contenders.

Something that goes unnoticed is his supporting cast. The second best teammate he ever had was Manu Ginobili! David Robinson was well past his prime.

I understand the argument that they had a goat coach, but Popovich is just that... a coach. He's no magician that can magically help the Spurs get W's. His players need to step it up.

Tony Parker? A decent but not elite athlete, good team defender but not great either.

There's a reason Duncan is on many people's top 10. He was not flashy, but he was so good.

If I had to choose between him and Shaq in their primes, give me Tim Duncan.

He's the most underrated player of his generation, maybe all generations.

As a Jazz fan, I've been blessed to experience Sloan and now Snyder, and ELITE coach can have an impact to a franchise similar to a great player. The Jazz went 42-40 when Malone left and Stockton retired. The last season with Malone and Stockton they were 47 wins. Most of you probably don't remember, but people had us dead last in the West, and we almost made the playoffs with a lineup that consisted of Ostertag, Kirilenko, Harpring, Stevenson, and Arroyo. Snyder was able to get us on a 70 win pace this season as soon as Rubio learned the system and we started getting healthier. The Celtics certainly have talent this season, but what they have done this season and postseason is the work of Stevens. What the Pacers and Spurs were able to accomplish this season, once again, coaching. You give the Warriors a great coach instead of Kerr, and I don't think they would be struggling as they have this year. He would have more control of the sloppy play, and would have the team playing as a team again rather than depending a lot on ISO. I truly believe the Spurs won 5 titles because of Pops as much as they did because of Duncan.

[JJ_PR]

This thread isn't intended to undermine what the Spurs achieved during that span - 5 titles is a heck of an accomplishment.

What people fail to mention is that Duncan carried the Spurs his whole career. From the moment he was drafted, the Spurs were instantly contenders.

Something that goes unnoticed is his supporting cast. The second best teammate he ever had was Manu Ginobili! David Robinson was well past his prime.

I understand the argument that they had a goat coach, but Popovich is just that... a coach. He's no magician that can magically help the Spurs get W's. His players need to step it up.

Tony Parker? A decent but not elite athlete, good team defender but not great either.

There's a reason Duncan is on many people's top 10. He was not flashy, but he was so good.

If I had to choose between him and Shaq in their primes, give me Tim Duncan.

He's the most underrated player of his generation, maybe all generations.

What is impressive is he did it all with the same team. He did it under one of the most demanding coaches in the league and one of the smallest markets and fiscally responsible owner. The Spurs did acquire their talent through the draft, not throwing tantrums saying he needs more help, or that his teammates aren't good enough when they get eliminated.

Duncan would just come back and see whatever he could do to make the team better. If they needed him to score he did that, if they needed him to play out of the high post he did that, if they needed to make Parker or Ginobli more of the focus he did that. He didn't mind sacrificing his stats and awards to help the team win. No one can say that Duncan was not the best player on the team in 2007, yet he let Tony Parker lead the offense.

When Pop decided to go to a motion offense in 2010, Duncan didn't complain, he didn't go to the media and say that we have to figure it out. Even I thought the Spurs were done after the Grizzlies beat them in the first round and then the Thunder beat them in the WCF's. I thought they were too old and couldn't compete with the young guns no more. Tim Duncan proved me wrong and he had more to give, he was a leader at all times.

People want to give Pop all this credit for the Spurs and that he is this great coach but look what is happening after Tim retired. There was never any controversy from Kawhi while Tim was there, now Pop can't even get along with his best player.

Tim Duncan is a top five player easy and you can argue even higher......

Agreed.

[scrabbarista]

This thread isn't intended to undermine what the Spurs achieved during that span - 5 titles is a heck of an accomplishment.

What people fail to mention is that Duncan carried the Spurs his whole career. From the moment he was drafted, the Spurs were instantly contenders.

Something that goes unnoticed is his supporting cast. The second best teammate he ever had was Manu Ginobili! David Robinson was well past his prime.

I understand the argument that they had a goat coach, but Popovich is just that... a coach. He's no magician that can magically help the Spurs get W's. His players need to step it up.

Tony Parker? A decent but not elite athlete, good team defender but not great either.

There's a reason Duncan is on many people's top 10. He was not flashy, but he was so good.

If I had to choose between him and Shaq in their primes, give me Tim Duncan.

He's the most underrated player of his generation, maybe all generations.

As a Jazz fan, I've been blessed to experience Sloan and now Snyder, and ELITE coach can have an impact to a franchise similar to a great player. The Jazz went 42-40 when Malone left and Stockton retired. The last season with Malone and Stockton they were 47 wins. Most of you probably don't remember, but people had us dead last in the West, and we almost made the playoffs with a lineup that consisted of Ostertag, Kirilenko, Harpring, Stevenson, and Arroyo. Snyder was able to get us on a 70 win pace this season as soon as Rubio learned the system and we started getting healthier. The Celtics certainly have talent this season, but what they have done this season and postseason is the work of Stevens. What the Pacers and Spurs were able to accomplish this season, once again, coaching. You give the Warriors a great coach instead of Kerr, and I don't think they would be struggling as they have this year. He would have more control of the sloppy play, and would have the team playing as a team again rather than depending a lot on ISO. I truly believe the Spurs won 5 titles because of Pops as much as they did because of Duncan.

Ugh. This comment was fine until "as much." Were you watching the recent Warriors game? If Steve Kerr (as a head coach) told Tim Duncan a story about Michael Jordan and Phil Jackson, do you think Duncan would have recoiled and clearly tuned him out? Get out of here.

Oh, and btw, how many titles did Jerry Sloan win for Utah?

[scrabbarista]

This thread isn't intended to undermine what the Spurs achieved during that span - 5 titles is a heck of an accomplishment.

What people fail to mention is that Duncan carried the Spurs his whole career. From the moment he was drafted, the Spurs were instantly contenders.

Something that goes unnoticed is his supporting cast. The second best teammate he ever had was Manu Ginobili! David Robinson was well past his prime.

I understand the argument that they had a goat coach, but Popovich is just that... a coach. He's no magician that can magically help the Spurs get W's. His players need to step it up.

Tony Parker? A decent but not elite athlete, good team defender but not great either.

There's a reason Duncan is on many people's top 10. He was not flashy, but he was so good.

If I had to choose between him and Shaq in their primes, give me Tim Duncan.

He's the most underrated player of his generation, maybe all generations.

What is impressive is he did it all with the same team. He did it under one of the most demanding coaches in the league and one of the smallest markets and fiscally responsible owner. The Spurs did acquire their talent through the draft, not throwing tantrums saying he needs more help, or that his teammates aren't good enough when they get eliminated.

Duncan would just come back and see whatever he could do to make the team better. If they needed him to score he did that, if they needed him to play out of the high post he did that, if they needed to make Parker or Ginobli more of the focus he did that. He didn't mind sacrificing his stats and awards to help the team win. No one can say that Duncan was not the best player on the team in 2007, yet he let Tony Parker lead the offense.

When Pop decided to go to a motion offense in 2010, Duncan didn't complain, he didn't go to the media and say that we have to figure it out. Even I thought the Spurs were done after the Grizzlies beat them in the first round and then the Thunder beat them in the WCF's. I thought they were too old and couldn't compete with the young guns no more. Tim Duncan proved me wrong and he had more to give, he was a leader at all times.

People want to give Pop all this credit for the Spurs and that he is this great coach but look what is happening after Tim retired. There was never any controversy from Kawhi while Tim was there, now Pop can't even get along with his best player.

Tim Duncan is a top five player easy and you can argue even higher......

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Perfectly put, and all completely true. Pop is about as good as a coach can be, but he benefited infinitely more from having Duncan than Duncan ever benefited from having him (on the court, obviously).

[SelfishPlayer]

I can't beleve that l just read that Manu is better than Tony Parker. Total BS. Parker has the Finals MVP, and the superior total of All Star games to solidify him as the second best player behind Duncan during those seasons for the Spurs.

Strongly disagree. Manu had a much higher, two-way impact than Tony Parker. A simple eye-test during their careers made that pretty obvious in my opinion, and if you compare their numbers it becomes even more obvious: Manu Ginobili is/was better than Tony Parker and, again this is my opinion, I don't think it's even all that close.

Yeah, Manu is definitely the superior player. More well-rounded offensively and much better defensively. The ball never stuck with him like it sometimes has when Tony was our primary creator. Manu is also the better player right now.

It's totally creepy reading this revisionist history.Tony Parker has more All NBA team selections, more All Star game selections, and something Manu doesn't have, a Finals MVP. If Manu had a Finals MVP and TP did not, then perhaps this attempt at revisionist history would have legs, but it never happened and will never happen, just like Manu a better player than TP. Never.

[G35]

This thread isn't intended to undermine what the Spurs achieved during that span - 5 titles is a heck of an accomplishment.

What people fail to mention is that Duncan carried the Spurs his whole career. From the moment he was drafted, the Spurs were instantly contenders.

Something that goes unnoticed is his supporting cast. The second best teammate he ever had was Manu Ginobili! David Robinson was well past his prime.

I understand the argument that they had a goat coach, but Popovich is just that... a coach. He's no magician that can magically help the Spurs get W's. His players need to step it up.

Tony Parker? A decent but not elite athlete, good team defender but not great either.

There's a reason Duncan is on many people's top 10. He was not flashy, but he was so good.

If I had to choose between him and Shaq in their primes, give me Tim Duncan.

He's the most underrated player of his generation, maybe all generations.

As a Jazz fan, I've been blessed to experience Sloan and now Snyder, and ELITE coach can have an impact to a franchise similar to a great player. The Jazz went 42-40 when Malone left and Stockton retired. The last season with Malone and Stockton they were 47 wins. Most of you probably don't remember, but people had us dead last in the West, and we almost made the playoffs with a lineup that consisted of Ostertag, Kirilenko, Harpring, Stevenson, and Arroyo. Snyder was able to get us on a 70 win pace this season as soon as Rubio learned the system and we started getting healthier. The Celtics certainly have talent this season, but what they have done this season and postseason is the work of Stevens. What the Pacers and Spurs were able to accomplish this season, once again, coaching. You give the Warriors a great coach instead of Kerr, and I don't think they would be struggling as they have this year. He would have more control of the sloppy play, and would have the team playing as a team again rather than depending a lot on ISO. I truly believe the Spurs won 5 titles because of Pops as much as they did because of Duncan.

Ugh. This comment was fine until "as much." Were you watching the recent Warriors game? If Steve Kerr (as a head coach) told Tim Duncan a story about Michael Jordan and Phil Jackson, do you think Duncan would have recoiled and clearly tuned him out? Get out of here.

Oh, and btw, how many titles did Jerry Sloan win for Utah?

Look Pop is a great coach. He did a lot but people forget the early years and they forget he only became the Spurs coach after they drafted Duncan.

The Warriors have the best 4 year stretch and two titles with a chance at a 3rd and it is not easy managing great players. Its easier to take bottom tier teams and make them average than make average teams great. How many coaches have been COY taking a team with low expectations and then they get fired.....

[scrabbarista]

As a Jazz fan, I've been blessed to experience Sloan and now Snyder, and ELITE coach can have an impact to a franchise similar to a great player. The Jazz went 42-40 when Malone left and Stockton retired. The last season with Malone and Stockton they were 47 wins. Most of you probably don't remember, but people had us dead last in the West, and we almost made the playoffs with a lineup that consisted of Ostertag, Kirilenko, Harpring, Stevenson, and Arroyo. Snyder was able to get us on a 70 win pace this season as soon as Rubio learned the system and we started getting healthier. The Celtics certainly have talent this season, but what they have done this season and postseason is the work of Stevens. What the Pacers and Spurs were able to accomplish this season, once again, coaching. You give the Warriors a great coach instead of Kerr, and I don't think they would be struggling as they have this year. He would have more control of the sloppy play, and would have the team playing as a team again rather than depending a lot on ISO. I truly believe the Spurs won 5 titles because of Pops as much as they did because of Duncan.

Ugh. This comment was fine until "as much." Were you watching the recent Warriors game? If Steve Kerr (as a head coach) told Tim Duncan a story about Michael Jordan and Phil Jackson, do you think Duncan would have recoiled and clearly tuned him out? Get out of here.

Oh, and btw, how many titles did Jerry Sloan win for Utah?

Look Pop is a great coach. He did a lot but people forget the early years and they forget he only became the Spurs coach after they drafted Duncan.

The Warriors have the best 4 year stretch and two titles with a chance at a 3rd and it is not easy managing great players. Its easier to take bottom tier teams and make them average than make average teams great. How many coaches have been COY taking a team with low expectations and then they get fired.....

I'm assuming you weren't addressing me, unless you misunderstood my comment, because I am 1000% in agreement with you.

[SK21209]

Strongly disagree. Manu had a much higher, two-way impact than Tony Parker. A simple eye-test during their careers made that pretty obvious in my opinion, and if you compare their numbers it becomes even more obvious: Manu Ginobili is/was better than Tony Parker and, again this is my opinion, I don't think it's even all that close.

Yeah, Manu is definitely the superior player. More well-rounded offensively and much better defensively. The ball never stuck with him like it sometimes has when Tony was our primary creator. Manu is also the better player right now.

It's totally creepy reading this revisionist history.Tony Parker has more All NBA team selections, more All Star game selections, and something Manu doesn't have, a Finals MVP. If Manu had a Finals MVP and TP did not, then perhaps this attempt at revisionist history would have legs, but it never happened and will never happen, just like Manu a better player than TP. Never.

Who cares about the Finals MVP. Is Iggy a better player than Curry? And who cares about All NBA or All Star, the only reason Tony has more is because Manu came off the bench. Anyone who's watched Spurs games for the last 15 years knows that the team always goes as Manu goes.

[dautjazz]

This thread isn't intended to undermine what the Spurs achieved during that span - 5 titles is a heck of an accomplishment.

What people fail to mention is that Duncan carried the Spurs his whole career. From the moment he was drafted, the Spurs were instantly contenders.

Something that goes unnoticed is his supporting cast. The second best teammate he ever had was Manu Ginobili! David Robinson was well past his prime.

I understand the argument that they had a goat coach, but Popovich is just that... a coach. He's no magician that can magically help the Spurs get W's. His players need to step it up.

Tony Parker? A decent but not elite athlete, good team defender but not great either.

There's a reason Duncan is on many people's top 10. He was not flashy, but he was so good.

If I had to choose between him and Shaq in their primes, give me Tim Duncan.

He's the most underrated player of his generation, maybe all generations.

As a Jazz fan, I've been blessed to experience Sloan and now Snyder, and ELITE coach can have an impact to a franchise similar to a great player. The Jazz went 42-40 when Malone left and Stockton retired. The last season with Malone and Stockton they were 47 wins. Most of you probably don't remember, but people had us dead last in the West, and we almost made the playoffs with a lineup that consisted of Ostertag, Kirilenko, Harpring, Stevenson, and Arroyo. Snyder was able to get us on a 70 win pace this season as soon as Rubio learned the system and we started getting healthier. The Celtics certainly have talent this season, but what they have done this season and postseason is the work of Stevens. What the Pacers and Spurs were able to accomplish this season, once again, coaching. You give the Warriors a great coach instead of Kerr, and I don't think they would be struggling as they have this year. He would have more control of the sloppy play, and would have the team playing as a team again rather than depending a lot on ISO. I truly believe the Spurs won 5 titles because of Pops as much as they did because of Duncan.

Ugh. This comment was fine until "as much." Were you watching the recent Warriors game? If Steve Kerr (as a head coach) told Tim Duncan a story about Michael Jordan and Phil Jackson, do you think Duncan would have recoiled and clearly tuned him out? Get out of here.

Oh, and btw, how many titles did Jerry Sloan win for Utah?

What's your point? The Jazz faced the 1997 and 98 Bulls, must I remind you that the 1996 team was a 72 win team, the 1997 team was a 69 win team and in 1998 they won 62 (Pippen missed 38, they were THAT good). I'd like to see how many other teams could of done better than the Jazz did in 1997 and 98 against the Bulls. The Jazz were not a bad team, but believe me Sloan was not working with enough to win a title against the Bulls. You could make an argument that they should of made the Finals before, but don't forget that the Lakers were the dominant team until 1991 (not to mention Sloan's first full season with the Jazz was 1990). Sloan took the Jazz to the WCF 5 times, and beyond that twice. Those mid to late 90s Rockets and Sonics were very good teams too. Even the Lakers and Spurs began to be great teams when the Jazz were in their finals runs. I said a great coach can have a huge impact, but remember that those Bulls teams had Phil Jackson who was no chump, and the upper hand with the better team as well.