Everyone agrees that D-Wade is the #3 2Guard of all time, right?

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Sulico
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Re: Everyone agrees that D-Wade is the #3 2Guard of all time, right? 

Post#241 » by Sulico » Mon Feb 18, 2019 2:43 pm

70sFan wrote:
Sulico wrote:
70sFan wrote:
I am also Spurs fan. Even though Manu played great in the finals (he could have won FMVP), overall he wasn't close to Duncan for the whole season. Besides, if you really have watched 2005 finals, you would know that Duncan was guarded like peak Shaq by Pistons - they doubled and tripled him tons of times even with Wallaces guarding him.

I don’t see anything "laughable" in having Nash over Manu. He was well deserved MVP in RS and played great in playoffs.


In RS Tim and Manu had virtually same impact stats with one exception, Manu dwarfed Tim in TS% .609 to .540. It wasn't big deal back then, it is now though as we understand the meaning of it better.
Then in playoffs things changed, Manu demolished Tim in TS% .652 (RS Steph Curry numbers) to .526 (below average in todays league), WS/48 .260 to .191, BPM 8.7 to 4.1, and most importantly On/Off stats +19.9 for Manu and -5.3 for Tim. 25.2 points difference in On/Off stats is huge difference, especially considering they shared the floor most of the time.
Same goes for every other player, except for RS KG, but he didn't play in playoffs, so we can't really consider him best overall player that year.
Manu impact numbers that season were out of this world, especially in the playoffs when it mattered the most. And it really showed when watching the game, as every time he stepped on the floor it seemed like Spurs were destined for a healthy run.


Where have you found that Duncan was negative in 2005 playoffs?


https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duncati01/on-off/2005
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Re: Everyone agrees that D-Wade is the #3 2Guard of all time, right? 

Post#242 » by ElodyTamTam » Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:05 pm

Every "is player X the most Y player ever?" thread on RealGM, finalists roster composition:
1) MJ [at least when talking about guards]
2) 99% players from last 15/20 years
3) one or two dudes from the 50s just for shameless tokening purposes
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Re: Everyone agrees that D-Wade is the #3 2Guard of all time, right? 

Post#243 » by MrSparkle » Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:13 pm

Ray Allen and Reggie Miller deserve a nod too. I mean, Wade had about 3 incredible years as a #1 albeit a lot of injury issues afterwards and “outside help” for most his career.

Also the Dallas 06 refereeing always really bothered me. Wade really benefitted from the whistle. In the current 3P-mad NBA, curious to see if younger Ray and Reggie would be game-changers as #1-2 options.
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Re: Everyone agrees that D-Wade is the #3 2Guard of all time, right? 

Post#244 » by iggymcfrack » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:18 pm

70sFan wrote:
John Murdoch wrote:
postaboy84 wrote:MJ, Kobe, West, and then a distant 4th Wade. Why? Wade played for the Heat. No pressure, no market, no brand, no fanbase, no media, and most of all played in a weak conference. Wade didn’t face what Kobe went though.


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I respect history but at the same time i trust my eyes , Jerry West would be Joe Ingles in todays league


Then nobody should trust your eyes. They are nothing alike and West was far more talented player for anyone who has minimal knowledge about basketball.


Eye test seems like a really, really strange thing to hold against Jerry West. Watching the old guys, I often feel like they’re miles behind the current crop, but Jerry West is the one guy that always looks like he’d fit in just like a glove in the modern game. He’s an elite creator, he makes difficult shots, he steps up in the clutch, he really stands out on tape as the one guy who looks like he came from a completely different league than any of his contemporaries. Like if there’s one guy from before the merger that this criticism doesn’t work on, it would be West IMO. Even in comparison to someone like Oscar, I feel like he looks a lot more like someone who could star in the modern game just watching him play.
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Re: Everyone agrees that D-Wade is the #3 2Guard of all time, right? 

Post#245 » by therealbig3 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:31 pm

Injuries knock Wade down a peg. I've got Jordan, Kobe, and West ahead of him without a lot of hesitation.
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Re: Everyone agrees that D-Wade is the #3 2Guard of all time, right? 

Post#246 » by dhsilv2 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:34 pm

ElodyTamTam wrote:Every "is player X the most Y player ever?" thread on RealGM, finalists roster composition:
1) MJ [at least when talking about guards]
2) 99% players from last 15/20 years
3) one or two dudes from the 50s just for shameless tokening purposes


More than like 60's not 50's and since the 70's were a bad time for greats, it makes sense, not to mention the vast majority of players have played in the last 15-20 years.
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Re: Everyone agrees that D-Wade is the #3 2Guard of all time, right? 

Post#247 » by dhsilv2 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:37 pm

iggymcfrack wrote:
70sFan wrote:
John Murdoch wrote:
I respect history but at the same time i trust my eyes , Jerry West would be Joe Ingles in todays league


Then nobody should trust your eyes. They are nothing alike and West was far more talented player for anyone who has minimal knowledge about basketball.


Eye test seems like a really, really strange thing to hold against Jerry West. Watching the old guys, I often feel like they’re miles behind the current crop, but Jerry West is the one guy that always looks like he’d fit in just like a glove in the modern game. He’s an elite creator, he makes difficult shots, he steps up in the clutch, he really stands out on tape as the one guy who looks like he came from a completely different league than any of his contemporaries. Like if there’s one guy from before the merger that this criticism doesn’t work on, it would be West IMO. Even in comparison to someone like Oscar, I feel like he looks a lot more like someone who could star in the modern game just watching him play.


Agree, the TWO guys from that era who stand out on the eye test are those two. Centers are harder to judge imo and the rest of the guards just pale in comparison to them. They absolutely look like they were time transplants from today.
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Re: Everyone agrees that D-Wade is the #3 2Guard of all time, right? 

Post#248 » by 70sFan » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:48 pm

Dave Bing is another guard from 1960s who looks completely modern, though he wasn't obviously as good as West. Although the pattern of a guard was different back then, it's not completely unseen to see "modern" small players. Oscar actually didn't play like guards play today, though watching him I'm comfortable with saying he’s extremely skilled.
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Re: Everyone agrees that D-Wade is the #3 2Guard of all time, right? 

Post#249 » by ElodyTamTam » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:56 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:not to mention the vast majority of players have played in the last 15-20 years


?
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Re: Everyone agrees that D-Wade is the #3 2Guard of all time, right? 

Post#250 » by LKN » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:58 pm

It's too hard for me to rate Jerry West (like most other pre-merger guys)... but from the little I've seen he's a guy who looks like he'd fit right into the modern game. Actually he'd probably fit better now than 25 years ago due to his range.
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Re: Everyone agrees that D-Wade is the #3 2Guard of all time, right? 

Post#251 » by dhsilv2 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:06 pm

ElodyTamTam wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:not to mention the vast majority of players have played in the last 15-20 years


?


Expansion, the 60's are almost a rounding error in terms of players that played compared to now. Then you have that a player like Malone drafted in 1986 (33 years ago) was MVP in 99 (20 years ago) so despite only going back 20 years guys like MJ, Malone, etc were still technically around.
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Re: Everyone agrees that D-Wade is the #3 2Guard of all time, right? 

Post#252 » by 70sFan » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:07 pm



Doesn't he look modern to you? He wasn't anything more than a decent all-star.
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Re: Everyone agrees that D-Wade is the #3 2Guard of all time, right? 

Post#253 » by Mirotic12 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:45 pm

Jordan
Kobe
West
T-Mac

No higher than 5th.
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Re: Everyone agrees that D-Wade is the #3 2Guard of all time, right? 

Post#254 » by Mirotic12 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:58 pm

Sulico wrote:Name me a player beter than Manu in 2004-2005 and I'll tell you why you wrong, simple as that.

He begun that season winning olympics, defeating USA team, and I want to remind to you that Wade was part of that team. In semifinals against Argentina he scored 2 points, had 3 turnovers. Manu scored 29.

Then he finished RS 3rd in BPM behind Kevin Garnett and Lebron James, and then playoffs 2nd in BPM behind Paul Pierce. Won a championship.

He was best player of that season for damn sure, I don't even know what argument can anybody have against that.


Manu's Olympic gold medal has gotten incredibly overrated.

That same USA Team lost to Italy, Puerto Rico, and Lithuania. They should have also lost to Greece and Spain if not for some questionable calls. They were extremely lucky to even be in the medal round at all.

Actually, looking at Argentina specifically, the refs helped them beat Greece at the quarterfinals.

Manu is one my favorite players, but the myth about that 2004 Olympics needs to stop. He wasn't even Argentina's best player at the gold medal game against Italy. Scola was. And in the game with USA at the semifinals, it was the Argentine point guards pick and roll down the stretch that won the game, not Manu.

But now all anybody talks about it like somehow Manu carried a team by himself to a gold medal and beat a great USA team....but the reality is miles from that myth.
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Re: Everyone agrees that D-Wade is the #3 2Guard of all time, right? 

Post#255 » by Soulcatcher33 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:25 pm

Yeah, he's 3rd. If his body had held up he'd have been 2, though and he has the highest peak of any SG after Michael Jordan. At his best he is better than Kobe at his best.
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Re: Everyone agrees that D-Wade is the #3 2Guard of all time, right? 

Post#256 » by Soulcatcher33 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:31 pm

MrSparkle wrote:Ray Allen and Reggie Miller deserve a nod too. I mean, Wade had about 3 incredible years as a #1 albeit a lot of injury issues afterwards and “outside help” for most his career.

Also the Dallas 06 refereeing always really bothered me. Wade really benefitted from the whistle. In the current 3P-mad NBA, curious to see if younger Ray and Reggie would be game-changers as #1-2 options.


Not really. Ray nor Reggie ever had close to the kind of impact a prime Wade had. He's on a different tier than them completely.
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Re: Everyone agrees that D-Wade is the #3 2Guard of all time, right? 

Post#257 » by Colbinii » Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:44 pm

Soulcatcher33 wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:Ray Allen and Reggie Miller deserve a nod too. I mean, Wade had about 3 incredible years as a #1 albeit a lot of injury issues afterwards and “outside help” for most his career.

Also the Dallas 06 refereeing always really bothered me. Wade really benefitted from the whistle. In the current 3P-mad NBA, curious to see if younger Ray and Reggie would be game-changers as #1-2 options.


Not really. Ray nor Reggie ever had close to the kind of impact a prime Wade had. He's on a different tier than them completely.

Yup.

Wade could have been the best player on a championship team from 2006 - 2011; 6 seasons. Allen and Miller were likely never going to be the best player on a championship team [unless an extremely deep team like the 90s Pacers, in a weak era mind you] and Allen wasn't close to that level.

Wade had enough longevity to boost him into the top 25 for me while Allen and Miller simply lack the top end peak to be considered top 25.



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Re: Everyone agrees that D-Wade is the #3 2Guard of all time, right? 

Post#258 » by MrSparkle » Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:06 am

Colbinii wrote:
Soulcatcher33 wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:Ray Allen and Reggie Miller deserve a nod too. I mean, Wade had about 3 incredible years as a #1 albeit a lot of injury issues afterwards and “outside help” for most his career.

Also the Dallas 06 refereeing always really bothered me. Wade really benefitted from the whistle. In the current 3P-mad NBA, curious to see if younger Ray and Reggie would be game-changers as #1-2 options.


Not really. Ray nor Reggie ever had close to the kind of impact a prime Wade had. He's on a different tier than them completely.

Yup.

Wade could have been the best player on a championship team from 2006 - 2011; 6 seasons. Allen and Miller were likely never going to be the best player on a championship team [unless an extremely deep team like the 90s Pacers, in a weak era mind you] and Allen wasn't close to that level.

Wade had enough longevity to boost him into the top 25 for me while Allen and Miller simply lack the top end peak to be considered top 25.



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Right... Really "weak" era, taking the Jordan Bulls to 7 games. Especially compared to the east 05-07 and 11-14 when Wade contended.

Again, my point is pretty simple.

I'm not denying Wade had a great career, but to say he was on a "completely different tier" than Ray is ridiculous. Reggie; fair enough. He was never an MVP type. Still would be interesting to see him and his contender Pacers in today's era.

06/07 Swept 4-0 by the Hinrich Bulls.
07/08 Went 15-67.
08/09 Lost 1st round to the Hawks (led by Josh Smith and Joe Johnson).

That was his young prime. He wasn't an uncanny #1 option. 30yo Ray made the KG Celtics a more lethal team than 30yo Wade made the Lebron Heat. I imagine that'd especially be the case in today's 3P crazy NBA.

Just making points for thoughts.
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Re: Everyone agrees that D-Wade is the #3 2Guard of all time, right? 

Post#259 » by His Airness 23 » Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:29 am

1. Jordan
2. Harden
3a. Kobe
3b. Wade
Top 10 Greatest NBA Players of All-Time, in order...

1.) Michael Jordan 2.) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 3.) Wilt Chamberlain 4.) Larry Bird
5.) Tim Duncan 6.) Shaquille O’Neal 7.) Magic Johnson 8.) Kawhi Leonard
9.) Hakeem Olajuwon 10. James Harden

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Re: Everyone agrees that D-Wade is the #3 2Guard of all time, right? 

Post#260 » by CoachD » Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:11 pm

I think you have to accept West as a 2... and to me, I rank him ahead of Wade.
I also think that Pete Maravich is criminally undervalued
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