Everyone agrees that D-Wade is the #3 2Guard of all time, right?

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Re: Everyone agrees that D-Wade is the #3 2Guard of all time, right? 

Post#181 » by KingDavid » Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:47 am

Laimbeer wrote:
KingDavid wrote:Again, people, DEFENSE.


Mike, Kobe, and West were all better defenders, though you could use that argument in the next tier against Gervin, Harden, Iverson, etc.

West was not a better defender than the best shot blocking guard in the game. Lol. I've repeatedly said Wade comes behind mj and Kobe.
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Re: Everyone agrees that D-Wade is the #3 2Guard of all time, right? 

Post#182 » by RSP83 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:50 am

pwrshft99 wrote:Not the biggest Wade fan. I think he benefited greatly from motivated Shaq and Prime LeBron.
Guys like TMac and Iverson had just as much impact but didn't enjoy the same team success.


How did I forgot AI and T-Mac. Talent wise, I take T-Mac over Wade. AI is special as well, but I don't know where to put him, he's like on his own category. AI took Sixers to the finals almost single handedly. Neither T-Mac or Wade can claim that.
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Re: Everyone agrees that D-Wade is the #3 2Guard of all time, right? 

Post#183 » by Sark » Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:11 am

TaylorTRoom wrote:D-Wade owes his stature to Bennett Salvatore and the 2006 refs. If they call the offensive foul on Wade’s shove of Terry or if Salvatore doesn’t blow a whistle on Dirk’s waving his hand in Wade’s direction, we all look at Wade’s career a lot differently. A top 3 SG doesn’t have a career that relies on an official to bail him out.


Using refs as an argument against Wade in a discussion about Wade/Harden is rich. Probably never a better case in the history of earth of the pot calling the kettle black,
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Re: Everyone agrees that D-Wade is the #3 2Guard of all time, right? 

Post#184 » by Sark » Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:15 am

Raps in 4 wrote:
drekwins wrote:Harden is not better than prime Wade. Prime Wade was GREAT on both ends of the court. Forget stats. Jerry Stackhouse put up 30pts in 2000-2001. Total points do not matter.... whatsoever. All that matters is leading your team to playoff wins. DWade has done that time and time again vs. some of the best.


Harden is one of the most efficient scorers of all time. Even with him playing no defense, his overall impact is still enormous. His ORPM is a ridiculous 7.65 this year, giving him the second highest RPM in the league. The next closest player? Curry at 5.98.


So is Adrian Dantley. That doesn't make him one of the best small forwards of all time though.
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Re: Everyone agrees that D-Wade is the #3 2Guard of all time, right? 

Post#185 » by lakerz12 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:16 am

1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. Wade
4. West

Imho
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Re: Everyone agrees that D-Wade is the #3 2Guard of all time, right? 

Post#186 » by bondom34 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:31 am

ken6199 wrote:
GYK wrote:
JN61 wrote:What has Harden done to be that high on all time career list? He's literally thousands behind Wade on numbers. And ahead of West?

his run as a Rocket is better than anyone else. he's going on his 2nd MVP with a season attributed to anyone else, with context of the team injury/regression without and his actual play, would be a top 5 is not the greatest season of all time. totals mean little to me. comparatively nothing. neither have arguments that they were actually better players as Rockets Harden.

Appreciate the love, but no way Harden is that high, and Harden still got like 7-8 years left in his career so now is not the time to do this.

When it comes to top 10, rings do matter whether you think it's fair or not. Sorry Barkley, Malone, Stockton, and vice versa for Dirk, Piece, Drexler. If a guy averaging 50ppg with 5 scoring title but no rings, sorry, you won't be as high. Wade is this high up the list, his 3 rings are big deal.

Wade is top 4 SG. 3 or 4, depending on how you view West. We take another look on Harden in at least 5 years time.

Ken pretty much summed up my feelings too. I'd have Wade as 3rd for sure personally.
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Re: Everyone agrees that D-Wade is the #3 2Guard of all time, right? 

Post#187 » by Danny1616 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:41 am

Yes.

You could make an argument that Wade was just as good or better then Lebron and Kobe between 2006-2010 (when healthy).
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Re: Everyone agrees that D-Wade is the #3 2Guard of all time, right? 

Post#188 » by GYK » Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:52 am

bondom34 wrote:
ken6199 wrote:
GYK wrote:his run as a Rocket is better than anyone else. he's going on his 2nd MVP with a season attributed to anyone else, with context of the team injury/regression without and his actual play, would be a top 5 is not the greatest season of all time. totals mean little to me. comparatively nothing. neither have arguments that they were actually better players as Rockets Harden.

Appreciate the love, but no way Harden is that high, and Harden still got like 7-8 years left in his career so now is not the time to do this.

When it comes to top 10, rings do matter whether you think it's fair or not. Sorry Barkley, Malone, Stockton, and vice versa for Dirk, Piece, Drexler. If a guy averaging 50ppg with 5 scoring title but no rings, sorry, you won't be as high. Wade is this high up the list, his 3 rings are big deal.

Wade is top 4 SG. 3 or 4, depending on how you view West. We take another look on Harden in at least 5 years time.

Ken pretty much summed up my feelings too. I'd have Wade as 3rd for sure personally.

that's cool. I think 14 seasons of what Harden has been is a ridiculous standard. 14 seasons around 28/7/6 on .61TS%. even without rings. just replicating his All NBA honors. another MVP. more 2nd place finishes. more WCF runs. man y'all really giving a hard path for someone who's essentially offensively Lebron James. but understand rings are rings for some. play is play for others.
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Re: Everyone agrees that D-Wade is the #3 2Guard of all time, right? 

Post#189 » by bondom34 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:04 am

GYK wrote:
bondom34 wrote:
ken6199 wrote:Appreciate the love, but no way Harden is that high, and Harden still got like 7-8 years left in his career so now is not the time to do this.

When it comes to top 10, rings do matter whether you think it's fair or not. Sorry Barkley, Malone, Stockton, and vice versa for Dirk, Piece, Drexler. If a guy averaging 50ppg with 5 scoring title but no rings, sorry, you won't be as high. Wade is this high up the list, his 3 rings are big deal.

Wade is top 4 SG. 3 or 4, depending on how you view West. We take another look on Harden in at least 5 years time.

Ken pretty much summed up my feelings too. I'd have Wade as 3rd for sure personally.

that's cool. I think 14 seasons of what Harden has been is a ridiculous standard. 14 seasons around 28/7/6 on .61TS%. even without rings. just replicating his All NBA honors. another MVP. more 2nd place finishes. more WCF runs. man y'all really giving a hard path for someone who's essentially offensively Lebron James. but understand rings are rings for some. play is play for others.

It's not rings though its longevity. Wade was one of the handful of best players in the NBA for a longer time and far better defensively. You can't just measure players by points/assists/rebounds and efficiency Dantley would be one of the best SFs ever if that were the case.Wade was a better defender by a huge margin, actually I'm not a fan of the rings argument.
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Re: Everyone agrees that D-Wade is the #3 2Guard of all time, right? 

Post#190 » by GYK » Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:25 am

bondom34 wrote:
GYK wrote:
bondom34 wrote:Ken pretty much summed up my feelings too. I'd have Wade as 3rd for sure personally.

that's cool. I think 14 seasons of what Harden has been is a ridiculous standard. 14 seasons around 28/7/6 on .61TS%. even without rings. just replicating his All NBA honors. another MVP. more 2nd place finishes. more WCF runs. man y'all really giving a hard path for someone who's essentially offensively Lebron James. but understand rings are rings for some. play is play for others.

It's not rings though its longevity. Wade was one of the handful of best players in the NBA for a longer time and far better defensively. You can't just measure players by points/assists/rebounds and efficiency Dantley would be one of the best SFs ever if that were the case.Wade was a better defender by a huge margin, actually I'm not a fan of the rings argument.

but he wasn't as good as Harden even with his defense and he has a ridiculously short prime. so there's no longevity argument for Wade. if not rings what exactly does Wade offer here. a monster peak that can be matched and arguably surpassed.
Dantley again wasn't seen in this light. even in the retrospect of how looking up his stats seem even his scoring prime was barely top ten in scoring, his signature skill. again another short prime and not overall better player. while comparing him to a MVP candidate. Dantley is beloved out of context because it's becoming extremely clear he wasn't seen and only brought up against players of higher profiles without rings.
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Re: Everyone agrees that D-Wade is the #3 2Guard of all time, right? 

Post#191 » by bondom34 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:29 am

GYK wrote:
bondom34 wrote:
GYK wrote:that's cool. I think 14 seasons of what Harden has been is a ridiculous standard. 14 seasons around 28/7/6 on .61TS%. even without rings. just replicating his All NBA honors. another MVP. more 2nd place finishes. more WCF runs. man y'all really giving a hard path for someone who's essentially offensively Lebron James. but understand rings are rings for some. play is play for others.

It's not rings though its longevity. Wade was one of the handful of best players in the NBA for a longer time and far better defensively. You can't just measure players by points/assists/rebounds and efficiency Dantley would be one of the best SFs ever if that were the case.Wade was a better defender by a huge margin, actually I'm not a fan of the rings argument.

but he wasn't as good as Harden even with his defense and he has a ridiculously short prime. so there's no longevity argument for Wade. if not rings what exactly does Wade offer here. a monster peak that can be matched and arguably surpassed.
Dantley again wasn't seen in this light. even in the retrospect of how looking up his stats seem even his scoring prime was barely top ten in scoring, his signature skill. again another short prime and not overall better player. while comparing him to a MVP candidate. Dantley is beloved out of context because it's becoming extremely clear he wasn't seen and only brought up against players of higher profiles with rings.

Wade was an elite level player about twice as long as Harden's been one. Team success helps, but for 8 years was top 10 in MVP votes and made 8 all NBA teams plus 2 defensive teams. Harden's at 6 with less success and a comparable peak in a league with worse comparative SG play IMO. Wade's peak and longevity were better.
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Re: Everyone agrees that D-Wade is the #3 2Guard of all time, right? 

Post#192 » by GYK » Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:41 am

bondom34 wrote:
GYK wrote:
bondom34 wrote:It's not rings though its longevity. Wade was one of the handful of best players in the NBA for a longer time and far better defensively. You can't just measure players by points/assists/rebounds and efficiency Dantley would be one of the best SFs ever if that were the case.Wade was a better defender by a huge margin, actually I'm not a fan of the rings argument.

but he wasn't as good as Harden even with his defense and he has a ridiculously short prime. so there's no longevity argument for Wade. if not rings what exactly does Wade offer here. a monster peak that can be matched and arguably surpassed.
Dantley again wasn't seen in this light. even in the retrospect of how looking up his stats seem even his scoring prime was barely top ten in scoring, his signature skill. again another short prime and not overall better player. while comparing him to a MVP candidate. Dantley is beloved out of context because it's becoming extremely clear he wasn't seen and only brought up against players of higher profiles with rings.

Wade was an elite level player about twice as long as Harden's been one. Team success helps, but for 8 years was top 10 in MVP votes and made 8 all NBA teams plus 2 defensive teams. Harden's at 6 with less success and a comparable peak in a league with worse comparative SG play IMO. Wade's peak and longevity were better.

Twice as long? because 05-11 is all I'm giving as elite.
Harden already has more 1st teams. fighting for his 2nd MVP and even without this season has more top 5 voting finishes than Wade.
the rings are absolutely his best argument over Harden. comparative rankings of how they placed in their leagues is handily in Harden's favor.
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Re: Everyone agrees that D-Wade is the #3 2Guard of all time, right? 

Post#193 » by bondom34 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:43 am

GYK wrote:
bondom34 wrote:
GYK wrote:but he wasn't as good as Harden even with his defense and he has a ridiculously short prime. so there's no longevity argument for Wade. if not rings what exactly does Wade offer here. a monster peak that can be matched and arguably surpassed.
Dantley again wasn't seen in this light. even in the retrospect of how looking up his stats seem even his scoring prime was barely top ten in scoring, his signature skill. again another short prime and not overall better player. while comparing him to a MVP candidate. Dantley is beloved out of context because it's becoming extremely clear he wasn't seen and only brought up against players of higher profiles with rings.

Wade was an elite level player about twice as long as Harden's been one. Team success helps, but for 8 years was top 10 in MVP votes and made 8 all NBA teams plus 2 defensive teams. Harden's at 6 with less success and a comparable peak in a league with worse comparative SG play IMO. Wade's peak and longevity were better.

Twice as long? because 05-11 is all I'm giving as elite.
Harden already has more 1st teams. fighting for his 2nd MVP and even without this season has more top 5 voting finishes than Wade.
the rings are absolutely his best argument over Harden. comparative rankings of how they placed in their leagues is handily in Harden's favor.

I'd have considered Wade as a great player well after 2011 at least 3 more years if not more.

The ring helps quite a bit too, but even without I'd need another couple years from Harden to consider it.
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Re: Everyone agrees that D-Wade is the #3 2Guard of all time, right? 

Post#194 » by GYK » Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:52 am

bondom34 wrote:
GYK wrote:
bondom34 wrote:Wade was an elite level player about twice as long as Harden's been one. Team success helps, but for 8 years was top 10 in MVP votes and made 8 all NBA teams plus 2 defensive teams. Harden's at 6 with less success and a comparable peak in a league with worse comparative SG play IMO. Wade's peak and longevity were better.

Twice as long? because 05-11 is all I'm giving as elite.
Harden already has more 1st teams. fighting for his 2nd MVP and even without this season has more top 5 voting finishes than Wade.
the rings are absolutely his best argument over Harden. comparative rankings of how they placed in their leagues is handily in Harden's favor.

I'd have considered Wade as a great player well after 2011 at least 3 more years if not more.

The ring helps quite a bit too, but even without I'd need another couple years from Harden to consider it.

does great player mean elite? because the "elite twice as long" comment is very shocking. please be specific.

well opinions do vary on these things. Harden pulls this level of play for 14 seasons he's top knocking on the top ten imo. I don't think people how short most of their faves times as star, not spotlight, truly were. absolute legend tho. 7 years of brilliance.
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Re: Everyone agrees that D-Wade is the #3 2Guard of all time, right? 

Post#195 » by bondom34 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:54 am

GYK wrote:
bondom34 wrote:
GYK wrote:Twice as long? because 05-11 is all I'm giving as elite.
Harden already has more 1st teams. fighting for his 2nd MVP and even without this season has more top 5 voting finishes than Wade.
the rings are absolutely his best argument over Harden. comparative rankings of how they placed in their leagues is handily in Harden's favor.

I'd have considered Wade as a great player well after 2011 at least 3 more years if not more.

The ring helps quite a bit too, but even without I'd need another couple years from Harden to consider it.

does great player mean elite? because the "elite twice as long" comment is very shocking. please be specific.

well opinions do vary on these things. Harden pulls this level of play for 14 seasons he's top knocking on the top ten imo. I don't think people how short most of their faves times as star, not spotlight, truly were. absolute legend tho. 7 years of brilliance.

Maybe top 10-15ish player I guess? I'd value a lower peak with more longevity personally, especially when he was the lead guy most of that span.
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Re: Everyone agrees that D-Wade is the #3 2Guard of all time, right? 

Post#196 » by GYK » Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:03 am

bondom34 wrote:
GYK wrote:
bondom34 wrote:I'd have considered Wade as a great player well after 2011 at least 3 more years if not more.

The ring helps quite a bit too, but even without I'd need another couple years from Harden to consider it.

does great player mean elite? because the "elite twice as long" comment is very shocking. please be specific.

well opinions do vary on these things. Harden pulls this level of play for 14 seasons he's top knocking on the top ten imo. I don't think people how short most of their faves times as star, not spotlight, truly were. absolute legend tho. 7 years of brilliance.

Maybe top 10-15ish player I guess? I'd value a lower peak with more longevity personally, especially when he was the lead guy most of that span.

that really didn't answer the twice thing. I think we are talking about two lead guys over their primes so far. oh but yea top 10-15 sound about right. assuming he continues this thats way too many top 5 MVP finishes to ignore.
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Re: Everyone agrees that D-Wade is the #3 2Guard of all time, right? 

Post#197 » by Raps in 4 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:48 am

drekwins wrote:
Raps in 4 wrote:
drekwins wrote:Harden is not better than prime Wade. Prime Wade was GREAT on both ends of the court. Forget stats. Jerry Stackhouse put up 30pts in 2000-2001. Total points do not matter.... whatsoever. All that matters is leading your team to playoff wins. DWade has done that time and time again vs. some of the best.


Harden is one of the most efficient scorers of all time. Even with him playing no defense, his overall impact is still enormous. His ORPM is a ridiculous 7.65 this year, giving him the second highest RPM in the league. The next closest player? Curry at 5.98.


In an era that promotes efficiency... the rules have allowed for much more efficient play. You can't compare that way vs. previous eras or decades. You have to look at success and their dominance compared to their peers. Harden puts up stats but failed miserably against his elite peers when it counted.


How has Harden "failed"?

He was 1 game away from knocking out the Warriors last year, arguably the greatest team of all time. The only reason he didn't is because his second best player got injured in game 5.

And that's just it right there, his second best player is a broken down Chris Paul. In an era of super teams, you're not winning **** with Harden's supporting cast.

Kobe and Wade played with **** Shaq and Lebron. No **** they racked up rings. And there was no unstoppable force like the Warriors during their eras. They were the ones on the super teams for most of their careers.

Had OKC ownership not been cheap and retained both Harden and Durant, Harden would have multiple rings right now and all of a sudden it would be okay to mention him in the same sentence as Kobe and Wade.
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Re: Everyone agrees that D-Wade is the #3 2Guard of all time, right? 

Post#198 » by Raps in 4 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:52 am

Sark wrote:
Raps in 4 wrote:
drekwins wrote:Harden is not better than prime Wade. Prime Wade was GREAT on both ends of the court. Forget stats. Jerry Stackhouse put up 30pts in 2000-2001. Total points do not matter.... whatsoever. All that matters is leading your team to playoff wins. DWade has done that time and time again vs. some of the best.


Harden is one of the most efficient scorers of all time. Even with him playing no defense, his overall impact is still enormous. His ORPM is a ridiculous 7.65 this year, giving him the second highest RPM in the league. The next closest player? Curry at 5.98.


So is Adrian Dantley. That doesn't make him one of the best small forwards of all time though.


Are you also one of the ones who argues that Mike Trout isn't an all-time great because he's never sniffed a WS?

Unless you force your way onto a super team or your GM is a savant, there isn't much a player can do to win a championship.

If Harden demanded a trade to the Warriors tomorrow and proceeded to win 3+ championships, would that suddenly make him a better player?
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Re: Everyone agrees that D-Wade is the #3 2Guard of all time, right? 

Post#199 » by drekwins » Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:03 am

Sark wrote:
Raps in 4 wrote:
drekwins wrote:Harden is not better than prime Wade. Prime Wade was GREAT on both ends of the court. Forget stats. Jerry Stackhouse put up 30pts in 2000-2001. Total points do not matter.... whatsoever. All that matters is leading your team to playoff wins. DWade has done that time and time again vs. some of the best.


Harden is one of the most efficient scorers of all time. Even with him playing no defense, his overall impact is still enormous. His ORPM is a ridiculous 7.65 this year, giving him the second highest RPM in the league. The next closest player? Curry at 5.98.


So is Adrian Dantley. That doesn't make him one of the best small forwards of all time though.


What a useless statement pertaining to the argument. If you think Wade needs an explanation of why he is better than Harden, you probably are too young to remember how great he was, are biased, don't care about defense or just are not well informed.
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Re: Everyone agrees that D-Wade is the #3 2Guard of all time, right? 

Post#200 » by drekwins » Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:18 am

Raps in 4 wrote:
drekwins wrote:
Raps in 4 wrote:
Harden is one of the most efficient scorers of all time. Even with him playing no defense, his overall impact is still enormous. His ORPM is a ridiculous 7.65 this year, giving him the second highest RPM in the league. The next closest player? Curry at 5.98.


In an era that promotes efficiency... the rules have allowed for much more efficient play. You can't compare that way vs. previous eras or decades. You have to look at success and their dominance compared to their peers. Harden puts up stats but failed miserably against his elite peers when it counted.


How has Harden "failed"?

He was 1 game away from knocking out the Warriors last year, arguably the greatest team of all time. The only reason he didn't is because his second best player got injured in game 5.

And that's just it right there, his second best player is a broken down Chris Paul. In an era of super teams, you're not winning **** with Harden's supporting cast.

Kobe and Wade played with **** Shaq and Lebron. No **** they racked up rings. And there was no unstoppable force like the Warriors during their eras. They were the ones on the super teams for most of their careers.

Had OKC ownership not been cheap and retained both Harden and Durant, Harden would have multiple rings right now and all of a sudden it would be okay to mention him in the same sentence as Kobe and Wade.


It's not that he failed. He failed in comparison to Wade. Also, what about the San Antonio series Game 7? Harden does NOT play the same when the competition picks up in the playoffs. Since joining Houston, Harden's FG% drops MUCH lower in the postseason. Below are his FG% and 3P%'s by year:

12-13 - FG - 39.1%, 3PT 34.1%
13-14 - FG - 37.6%, 3PT 29.6%
14-15 - FG - 43.9%, 3PT 38.3%
15-16 - FG - 41.0 %, 3PT 31.0%
16-17 - FG - 41.3%, 3PT 27.8%
17-18 - FG - 41.0%, 3PT 29.9%

Those are terrible numbers and certianly not someone even worthy of this discussion. In fact, how did he jump TMAC? How is he different from Gilbert Arenas?

Meanwhile, Wade made the playoffs 11 times in Miami. He only shot under 45.5% twice (43.9% and 42.9% respectively)... He was highly efficient even when the defense got tough. It's easy for Harden to skew his numbers against the Suns in the middle of January. The playoffs reveal all. Wades playoff stats are far superior... in almost every way.

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