Everyone agrees that D-Wade is the #3 2Guard of all time, right?

[drekwins]

Harden is one of the most efficient scorers of all time. Even with him playing no defense, his overall impact is still enormous. His ORPM is a ridiculous 7.65 this year, giving him the second highest RPM in the league. The next closest player? Curry at 5.98.

In an era that promotes efficiency... the rules have allowed for much more efficient play. You can't compare that way vs. previous eras or decades. You have to look at success and their dominance compared to their peers. Harden puts up stats but failed miserably against his elite peers when it counted.

How has Harden "failed"?

He was 1 game away from knocking out the Warriors last year, arguably the greatest team of all time. The only reason he didn't is because his second best player got injured in game 5.

And that's just it right there, his second best player is a broken down Chris Paul. In an era of super teams, you're not winning **** with Harden's supporting cast.

Kobe and Wade played with **** Shaq and Lebron. No **** they racked up rings. And there was no unstoppable force like the Warriors during their eras. They were the ones on the super teams for most of their careers.

Had OKC ownership not been cheap and retained both Harden and Durant, Harden would have multiple rings right now and all of a sudden it would be okay to mention him in the same sentence as Kobe and Wade.

Also, did you say Wade played with Shaq? Shaq was a shell of himself... he wasn't even close to his prime-self. Harden played with CP3... are you kidding me? CP3 was better last year than Shaq was with Wade. It wasn't a 1A-1B situation. Wade carried that team.

Second, Kobe winning with Shaq was a big point of criticism of him. It was an asterisk on his resume. It's one of the reasons he did not want to play with shaq anymore and demanded that he was traded. Kobe then won with Pau as his second best player... which is amazing because Pau is not THAT good from an all-time perspective.

You're basically saying that Harden needed Prime Durant and Prime Westbrook to win... on a team with Durant, he wouldnt be the best player. If he needs that much help, once again, he doesn't belong in this convo. Kobe and Wade did not need that much help to win ONE. LeBron only helped Wade increase his title totals.

[Raps in 4]

In an era that promotes efficiency... the rules have allowed for much more efficient play. You can't compare that way vs. previous eras or decades. You have to look at success and their dominance compared to their peers. Harden puts up stats but failed miserably against his elite peers when it counted.

How has Harden "failed"?

He was 1 game away from knocking out the Warriors last year, arguably the greatest team of all time. The only reason he didn't is because his second best player got injured in game 5.

And that's just it right there, his second best player is a broken down Chris Paul. In an era of super teams, you're not winning **** with Harden's supporting cast.

Kobe and Wade played with **** Shaq and Lebron. No **** they racked up rings. And there was no unstoppable force like the Warriors during their eras. They were the ones on the super teams for most of their careers.

Had OKC ownership not been cheap and retained both Harden and Durant, Harden would have multiple rings right now and all of a sudden it would be okay to mention him in the same sentence as Kobe and Wade.

Also, did you say Wade played with Shaq? Shaq was a shell of himself... he wasn't even close to his prime-self. Harden played with CP3... are you kidding me? CP3 was better last year than Shaq was with Wade. It wasn't a 1A-1B situation. Wade carried that team.

Second, Kobe winning with Shaq was a big point of criticism of him. It was an asterisk on his resume. It's one of the reasons he did not want to play with shaq anymore and demanded that he was traded. Kobe then won with Pau as his second best player... which is amazing because Pau is not THAT good from an all-time perspective.

You're basically saying that Harden needed Prime Durant and Prime Westbrook to win... on a team with Durant, he wouldnt be the best player. If he needs that much help, once again, he doesn't belong in this convo. Kobe and Wade did not need that much help to win ONE. LeBron only helped Wade increase his title totals.

And who did the 2006 Heat and 2009, 2010 Lakers have to beat for their titles? A Dirk-led Mavs, a Dwight-led Magic, and a washed up Celtics big-3.

Nobody had to face a historic super team with 2 MVPs and 4 all-stars in total.

[Raps in 4]

In an era that promotes efficiency... the rules have allowed for much more efficient play. You can't compare that way vs. previous eras or decades. You have to look at success and their dominance compared to their peers. Harden puts up stats but failed miserably against his elite peers when it counted.

How has Harden "failed"?

He was 1 game away from knocking out the Warriors last year, arguably the greatest team of all time. The only reason he didn't is because his second best player got injured in game 5.

And that's just it right there, his second best player is a broken down Chris Paul. In an era of super teams, you're not winning **** with Harden's supporting cast.

Kobe and Wade played with **** Shaq and Lebron. No **** they racked up rings. And there was no unstoppable force like the Warriors during their eras. They were the ones on the super teams for most of their careers.

Had OKC ownership not been cheap and retained both Harden and Durant, Harden would have multiple rings right now and all of a sudden it would be okay to mention him in the same sentence as Kobe and Wade.

It's not that he failed. He failed in comparison to Wade. Also, what about the San Antonio series Game 7? Harden does NOT play the same when the competition picks up in the playoffs. Since joining Houston, Harden's FG% drops MUCH lower in the postseason. Below are his FG% and 3P%'s by year:

12-13 - FG - 39.1%, 3PT 34.1%
13-14 - FG - 37.6%, 3PT 29.6%
14-15 - FG - 43.9%, 3PT 38.3%
15-16 - FG - 41.0 %, 3PT 31.0%
16-17 - FG - 41.3%, 3PT 27.8%
17-18 - FG - 41.0%, 3PT 29.9%

Those are terrible numbers and certianly not someone even worthy of this discussion. In fact, how did he jump TMAC? How is he different from Gilbert Arenas?

Meanwhile, Wade made the playoffs 11 times in Miami. He only shot under 45.5% twice (43.9% and 42.9% respectively)... He was highly efficient even when the defense got tough. It's easy for Harden to skew his numbers against the Suns in the middle of January. The playoffs reveal all. Wades playoff stats are far superior... in almost every way.

Having a strong second option to take pressure off of you helps your FG%. Harden has only had that once in his career as a 1A.

His playoff TS% with OKC was 58%, 63%, 61%, you know, when he had someone else to relieve pressure off him. Sure he stunk it up last year, but Wade and Kobe have had more than a few terrible playoffs too. People just choose to forget those years.

[Sign5]

How has Harden "failed"?

He was 1 game away from knocking out the Warriors last year, arguably the greatest team of all time. The only reason he didn't is because his second best player got injured in game 5.

And that's just it right there, his second best player is a broken down Chris Paul. In an era of super teams, you're not winning **** with Harden's supporting cast.

Kobe and Wade played with **** Shaq and Lebron. No **** they racked up rings. And there was no unstoppable force like the Warriors during their eras. They were the ones on the super teams for most of their careers.

Had OKC ownership not been cheap and retained both Harden and Durant, Harden would have multiple rings right now and all of a sudden it would be okay to mention him in the same sentence as Kobe and Wade.

It's not that he failed. He failed in comparison to Wade. Also, what about the San Antonio series Game 7? Harden does NOT play the same when the competition picks up in the playoffs. Since joining Houston, Harden's FG% drops MUCH lower in the postseason. Below are his FG% and 3P%'s by year:

12-13 - FG - 39.1%, 3PT 34.1%
13-14 - FG - 37.6%, 3PT 29.6%
14-15 - FG - 43.9%, 3PT 38.3%
15-16 - FG - 41.0 %, 3PT 31.0%
16-17 - FG - 41.3%, 3PT 27.8%
17-18 - FG - 41.0%, 3PT 29.9%

Those are terrible numbers and certianly not someone even worthy of this discussion. In fact, how did he jump TMAC? How is he different from Gilbert Arenas?

Meanwhile, Wade made the playoffs 11 times in Miami. He only shot under 45.5% twice (43.9% and 42.9% respectively)... He was highly efficient even when the defense got tough. It's easy for Harden to skew his numbers against the Suns in the middle of January. The playoffs reveal all. Wades playoff stats are far superior... in almost every way.

Having a strong second option to take pressure off of you helps your FG%. Harden has only had that once in his career as a 1A.

His playoff TS% with OKC was 58%, 63%, 61%, you know, when he had someone else to relieve pressure off him. Sure he stunk it up last year, but Wade and Kobe have had more than a few terrible playoffs too. People just choose to forget those years.

Kobe sure but name 3 terrible playoffs of healthy prime Wade besides the Chicago bulls series in 2011. Basketball reference and YouTube should make things easy.

[70sFan]

Again, people, DEFENSE.

Mike, Kobe, and West were all better defenders, though you could use that argument in the next tier against Gervin, Harden, Iverson, etc.

West was not a better defender than the best shot blocking guard in the game. Lol. I've repeatedly said Wade comes behind mj and Kobe.

West himself was excellent shot blocking guard in his prime. He also seemed to have better defensive instinct.

[Raps in 4]

It's not that he failed. He failed in comparison to Wade. Also, what about the San Antonio series Game 7? Harden does NOT play the same when the competition picks up in the playoffs. Since joining Houston, Harden's FG% drops MUCH lower in the postseason. Below are his FG% and 3P%'s by year:

12-13 - FG - 39.1%, 3PT 34.1%
13-14 - FG - 37.6%, 3PT 29.6%
14-15 - FG - 43.9%, 3PT 38.3%
15-16 - FG - 41.0 %, 3PT 31.0%
16-17 - FG - 41.3%, 3PT 27.8%
17-18 - FG - 41.0%, 3PT 29.9%

Those are terrible numbers and certianly not someone even worthy of this discussion. In fact, how did he jump TMAC? How is he different from Gilbert Arenas?

Meanwhile, Wade made the playoffs 11 times in Miami. He only shot under 45.5% twice (43.9% and 42.9% respectively)... He was highly efficient even when the defense got tough. It's easy for Harden to skew his numbers against the Suns in the middle of January. The playoffs reveal all. Wades playoff stats are far superior... in almost every way.

Having a strong second option to take pressure off of you helps your FG%. Harden has only had that once in his career as a 1A.

His playoff TS% with OKC was 58%, 63%, 61%, you know, when he had someone else to relieve pressure off him. Sure he stunk it up last year, but Wade and Kobe have had more than a few terrible playoffs too. People just choose to forget those years.

Kobe sure but name 3 terrible playoffs of healthy prime Wade besides the Chicago bulls series in 2011. Basketball reference and YouTube should make things easy.

Not including his rookie season and his twilight years:

2007
2012
2013

[Sign5]

Having a strong second option to take pressure off of you helps your FG%. Harden has only had that once in his career as a 1A.

His playoff TS% with OKC was 58%, 63%, 61%, you know, when he had someone else to relieve pressure off him. Sure he stunk it up last year, but Wade and Kobe have had more than a few terrible playoffs too. People just choose to forget those years.

Kobe sure but name 3 terrible playoffs of healthy prime Wade besides the Chicago bulls series in 2011. Basketball reference and YouTube should make things easy.

Not including his rookie season and his twilight years:

2007
2012
2013

did you even read my post?

In 2007 Wade was playing with a dislocated shoulder and bum knee.

2012 &13 weren't his prime years and he was riddled with injuries in '13.

Even so, in the 2012 playoffs he averaged 23ppg 5apg and 4 (taking a clear back seat to LeBron) and came up key in the 2012 NBA finals. How can that be terrible when he averaged MORE in the playoffs than in the regular season that year?

[TaylorTRoom]

But, Wade has to get dinged for the bitchassedness. There is:

1. A wheelchair for a shoulder injury.
2. Countering Salvatore discussion by claiming Dirk was a poor leader.
3. Mocking Dirk for having the flu.

[bondom34]

does great player mean elite? because the "elite twice as long" comment is very shocking. please be specific.

well opinions do vary on these things. Harden pulls this level of play for 14 seasons he's top knocking on the top ten imo. I don't think people how short most of their faves times as star, not spotlight, truly were. absolute legend tho. 7 years of brilliance.

Maybe top 10-15ish player I guess? I'd value a lower peak with more longevity personally, especially when he was the lead guy most of that span.

that really didn't answer the twice thing. I think we are talking about two lead guys over their primes so far. oh but yea top 10-15 sound about right. assuming he continues this thats way too many top 5 MVP finishes to ignore.

Yeah twice was a little longer, but was counting 05-around 15, while Harden is from probably 15-19 so far. I don't think he was at that level prior (maybe 14 but not to me). Wade wasn't the scorer Harden is, but his peak was similar and longevity way more IMO

[GordanFreeman]

Wade was a better passer, a better defender, and had a much higher peak. The only edges Kobe has are longevity and better teammates.

Kobe Bryant made the ALL Defensive Team 12 Times. Which is more time than ANY Other Guard Ever.

Oh and you want to try and bring up passing?

Watch on YouTube

Kobe is superior to Wade in just about every facet of the game.

Peak Wade>Peak Kobe. But overall, Kobe is higher on the all-time greats list due to rings and longevity.

[AdagioPace]

I don't believe Wade had a better "peak" than Kobe. It's entirely debatable. Wade employs a way more efficient style, Kobe has shown high portability. Both were great offensive players with overrated defense.

[Zenzibar]

I'd place John Havlicek on par with Wade:

21 points, 6 rebounds, and 5 assists per game after putting in sixteen years of service at the NBA level. Hondo claimed eight championships.

[iggymcfrack]

I'd place John Havlicek on par with Wade:

21 points, 6 rebounds, and 5 assists per game after putting in sixteen years of service at the NBA level. Hondo claimed eight championships.

Havlicek has a career-high PER of 20.8. That’s closer to below average than it is to Kobe or Wade’s peak seasons. Plus that’s a stat which is relative to league average, and Havlicek played in a much, much weaker league than either of them. Honestly, Wade and Kobe are both closer to Jordan than they are to Hondo.

[Zenzibar]

I'd place John Havlicek on par with Wade:

21 points, 6 rebounds, and 5 assists per game after putting in sixteen years of service at the NBA level. Hondo claimed eight championships.

Havlicek has a career-high PER of 20.8. That’s closer to below average than it is to Kobe or Wade’s peak seasons. Plus that’s a stat which is relative to league average, and Havlicek played in a much, much weaker league than either of them. Honestly, Wade and Kobe are both closer to Jordan than they are to Hondo.

You're PER is well taken, however, the argument on past years was this or that is flawed. It's what will divide the future fans from arguing that their current favorite is better than Michael, Kobe, Wade and Lebron. That this era was not as athletic and didn't have the 4 point shot from 28ft out or something or that players couldn't dunk from the free-throw line on the regular.

Havlicek was top 3 during his era which for his era was transcending, Same for players in their eras in the NFL MLB or NHL. The training facilities, travel accommodations, sports medicine, treatment of ACLs and injuries, meals, vitamins or sports science was not the same back then. They did have all time great athletes then but without the advantages today, which will be out-shadowed by the sports sciences in the future.

How can George Gervin a 6'7' transcendent 2 guard who averaged career 26ppg, not be in this conversation?

[GYK]

Maybe top 10-15ish player I guess? I'd value a lower peak with more longevity personally, especially when he was the lead guy most of that span.

that really didn't answer the twice thing. I think we are talking about two lead guys over their primes so far. oh but yea top 10-15 sound about right. assuming he continues this thats way too many top 5 MVP finishes to ignore.

Yeah twice was a little longer, but was counting 05-around 15, while Harden is from probably 15-19 so far. I don't think he was at that level prior (maybe 14 but not to me). Wade wasn't the scorer Harden is, but his peak was similar and longevity way more IMO

all the way to 15? naw I would never.
post 11 Wade is elite. all of Rockets Harden not?
i don't think we will come close to an understanding.

[bondom34]

that really didn't answer the twice thing. I think we are talking about two lead guys over their primes so far. oh but yea top 10-15 sound about right. assuming he continues this thats way too many top 5 MVP finishes to ignore.

Yeah twice was a little longer, but was counting 05-around 15, while Harden is from probably 15-19 so far. I don't think he was at that level prior (maybe 14 but not to me). Wade wasn't the scorer Harden is, but his peak was similar and longevity way more IMO

all the way to 15? naw I would never.
post 11 Wade is elite. all of Rockets Harden not?
i don't think we will come close to an understanding.

That's fair (and no, I wouldn't say Harden was elite that whole time). I think he's a good bit overrated impact wise currently.

[GYK]

Yeah twice was a little longer, but was counting 05-around 15, while Harden is from probably 15-19 so far. I don't think he was at that level prior (maybe 14 but not to me). Wade wasn't the scorer Harden is, but his peak was similar and longevity way more IMO

all the way to 15? naw I would never.
post 11 Wade is elite. all of Rockets Harden not?
i don't think we will come close to an understanding.

That's fair (and no, I wouldn't say Harden was elite that whole time). I think he's a good bit overrated impact wise currently.

I can't disagree more. nothing that you would use to praise others wouldn't make Harden look amazing if not better. but feelings are feelings so I understand.

[Woodsanity]

Great peak but his longevity sucks. Rank him 4th behind West, Kobe, and of course MJ

[SmashMouthRod]

Jordan
Kobe
Wade
Harden
T-Mac
Manu

[HurricaneKid]

Wade was a better passer, a better defender, and had a much higher peak. The only edges Kobe has are longevity and better teammates.

Kobe Bryant made the ALL Defensive Team 12 Times. Which is more time than ANY Other Guard Ever.

Oh and you want to try and bring up passing?

Watch on YouTube

Kobe is superior to Wade in just about every facet of the game.

Kobe had a negative DRAPM in 2000, 2004, 2006, 2007, and 2011, all years he was voted all-defense. That means that in almost half of his all-defense seasons, he was actually a below average defender by the advanced stats. If it just happened once or twice, maybe you'd say the stats were fluky and missed something that the eye test showed, but that's way too large of a sample to be coincidence. Those awards were garbage and had nothing to do with reality. It was just a bunch of guys who hadn't put any real effort into evaluating defense picking a big name who had a reputation for effort and got some steals. They're about as meaningful as Dirk making the all-star game this year in evaluating the quality of a player.

Kobe has a negative career DRAPM. That's pretty much all that needs to be said. The fact that he was substantially better in high leverage moments is almost damning to me in that he clearly just didn't give effort on that side of the ball.

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