David Griffin takes low-key swipe at 'The Process' mindset

[Capn'O]

Philly tanked all these years and they still have nothing to show.

They are not a championship team and they do not have any assets anymore. Their superstar is also on a minutes restriction in the playoffs.

I was a fan of the process. That said, I can’t disagree with you. I wish Hinkie was given the leeway to see it all the way through and we could properly evaluate it. You’re right though. Sixers aren’t good enough, and I have a feeling that window is smaller than I thought before. I’m going to be surprised if Embiid is still playing at 30. I’m guessing that Harris trade was done with that insider knowledge of his long term health prognosis. I still like the process idea, they just got really unlucky that there wasn’t some no brainer generational star in that window and the Fultz misstep was really painful. I think in the end the process will yield 0 rings.

The current state of the 76ers proves precisely why The Process WAS needed. PHI was built up for long-term success with young star talent and TONS of assets and flexibility

Then Colangelo and Brand did the OPPOSITE of the Process and traded away high-upside, long-term, cost-controlled assets (#3 pick 2017, SAC pick 2019, Covington, Saric, cap space, etc.) for lower-upside, win-now, expensive players (Butler, Harris, etc.)

If Hinkie had been allowed to stay on, the 76ers core going forward would be:

Embiid
Simmons
Tatum / Fox / J. Isaac / Josh Jackson / D. Mitchell (whoever they picked at #3 in 2017)
Covington
Saric
SAC lotto pick '19
MIA pick '21 (likely made similar trade as Brand did)
Max cap space this summer

That is so much brighter than the future PHI has now, because they got short-sighted and didn't Trust the Process.

Not only that, they're the only team that has really taken this route as a deliberate strategy AND they didn't run it to its conclusion.

A lot of teams are bad and decide to tank halfway through the year. That's very different from what Hinkie did. There are other ways to build a good team. It really depends what you start with. But the whole premise that there are all these teams that have done a "process" and that it doesn't work is a straw man.

[Prospect Dong]

Philly tanked all these years and they still have nothing to show.

They are not a championship team and they do not have any assets anymore. Their superstar is also on a minutes restriction in the playoffs.

How many teams won championships, or even made it to the finals, in the years since Philly started tanking? How many teams have "nothing to show?"

[Capn'O]

Using the Bucks as some sort of "gotcha" for this argument is nuts. When they drafted Giannis, the Bucks had a mediocre team led by Monta Ellis and Brandon Jennings. Seeing they were headed nowhere, they gutted the team, letting Ellis walk and moving Jennings in a deal for Knight (who they later jettisoned for a box of hammers) that also included Middleton. They bottomed out and gained a valuable prospect. The next year, they tanked the **** out of, gaining the 2nd overall pick.

Parker didn't amount to much but the Bucks absolutely don't get to where they are today without gutting the treadmill team for young talent and getting their finances back in order. They didn't just build incrementally until they had amassed some better talent and resources to acquire additional pieces. At first, the incremental approach wasn't appropriate for the talent base they had built as it is for teams that have been well managed for a long time like the Spurs, Rockets, or Raptors under Masai. They required a tanking year to reset.



Hey - the Warriors started getting good after getting rid of Monta too. Maybe that's the secret sauce.

[Prospect Dong]

Philly tanked all these years and they still have nothing to show.

They are not a championship team and they do not have any assets anymore. Their superstar is also on a minutes restriction in the playoffs.

I was a fan of the process. That said, I can’t disagree with you. I wish Hinkie was given the leeway to see it all the way through and we could properly evaluate it. You’re right though. Sixers aren’t good enough, and I have a feeling that window is smaller than I thought before. I’m going to be surprised if Embiid is still playing at 30. I’m guessing that Harris trade was done with that insider knowledge of his long term health prognosis. I still like the process idea, they just got really unlucky that there wasn’t some no brainer generational star in that window and the Fultz misstep was really painful. I think in the end the process will yield 0 rings.

The current state of the 76ers proves precisely why The Process WAS needed. PHI was built up for long-term success with young star talent and TONS of assets and flexibility

Then Colangelo and Brand did the OPPOSITE of the Process and traded away high-upside, long-term, cost-controlled assets (#3 pick 2017, SAC pick 2019, Covington, Saric, cap space, etc.) for lower-upside, win-now, expensive players (Butler, Harris, etc.)

If Hinkie had been allowed to stay on, the 76ers core going forward would be:

Embiid
Simmons
Tatum / Fox / J. Isaac / Josh Jackson / D. Mitchell (whoever they picked at #3 in 2017)
Covington
Saric
SAC lotto pick '19
MIA pick '21 (likely made similar trade as Brand did)
Max cap space this summer

That is so much brighter than the future PHI has now, because they got short-sighted and didn't Trust the Process.

I think you're mixing a (justified) critique of win-now management with 20-20 draft hindsight. Fultz wasn't so much a win-now move as an upside-maximising play to add the final piece. I can honestly see Hinkie making that deal, and missing on his evaluation of Fultz, though obviously we'll never know.

[Prospect Dong]

Of the top teams right now, Warriors/Raptors/Bucks, none of them got there by tanking. Warriors and Raps have 2 of the best FO's in the league and the Bucks, while up and down, got very fortunate with Giannis

The warriors pretty explicitly tanked in order to avoid giving up the pick that became Barnes. And they probably never sign Durant without him. Hell, Curry was the #7 pick. That's sort of tanking right there.

Sure, they didn't really bottom out in order to build their team, but it's not like they were hovering around 0.500 for five years before break through.

[Big_Aristotle]

I strongly believe in David Griffin as a GM and the way he approaches his role. I'm sure he'll prove that in the coming years

[PennSports]

the process was literally about small wins everyday, this isn't a swipe at Hinkie or the process at all. Why do you think everyone makes 2nd rounder jokes? If anything this is a shot at colangelo for literally sitting on his hands and doing nothing for 2.5 years. He was in charge just as long as Hinkie was and added nothing at all

[Coachcavplaya23]

If Hinkie had been allowed to stay on, ...

Hinkie quit rather than accept a lesser role where he might had still influenced decisions.

Nice conjecture, though.

Fact is Hinkie dug his own grave by exploiting league rules and then flaunting it.

Hinkie was well within those rules and did nothing wrong. He was doing a good job with assets until that creepy rat looking MF in Silver got involved. Hinkie should still be there now.

[Vampirate]

Using the Bucks as some sort of "gotcha" for this argument is nuts. When they drafted Giannis, the Bucks had a mediocre team led by Monta Ellis and Brandon Jennings. Seeing they were headed nowhere, they gutted the team, letting Ellis walk and moving Jennings in a deal for Knight (who they later jettisoned for a box of hammers) that also included Middleton. They bottomed out and gained a valuable prospect. The next year, they tanked the **** out of, gaining the 2nd overall pick.

Parker didn't amount to much but the Bucks absolutely don't get to where they are today without gutting the treadmill team for young talent and getting their finances back in order. They didn't just build incrementally until they had amassed some better talent and resources to acquire additional pieces. At first, the incremental approach wasn't appropriate for the talent base they had built as it is for teams that have been well managed for a long time like the Spurs, Rockets, or Raptors under Masai. They required a tanking year to reset.



Hey - the Warriors started getting good after getting rid of Monta too. Maybe that's the secret sauce.

The Raptors had to tank to get DeRozan, Ross and Jonas to get where they are today.

[Anticon]

Philly tanked all these years and they still have nothing to show.

They are not a championship team and they do not have any assets anymore. Their superstar is also on a minutes restriction in the playoffs.

I was a fan of the process. That said, I can’t disagree with you. I wish Hinkie was given the leeway to see it all the way through and we could properly evaluate it. You’re right though. Sixers aren’t good enough, and I have a feeling that window is smaller than I thought before. I’m going to be surprised if Embiid is still playing at 30. I’m guessing that Harris trade was done with that insider knowledge of his long term health prognosis. I still like the process idea, they just got really unlucky that there wasn’t some no brainer generational star in that window and the Fultz misstep was really painful. I think in the end the process will yield 0 rings.

The current state of the 76ers proves precisely why The Process WAS needed. PHI was built up for long-term success with young star talent and TONS of assets and flexibility

Then Colangelo and Brand did the OPPOSITE of the Process and traded away high-upside, long-term, cost-controlled assets (#3 pick 2017, SAC pick 2019, Covington, Saric, cap space, etc.) for lower-upside, win-now, expensive players (Butler, Harris, etc.)

If Hinkie had been allowed to stay on, the 76ers core going forward would be:

Embiid
Simmons
Tatum / Fox / J. Isaac / Josh Jackson / D. Mitchell (whoever they picked at #3 in 2017)
Covington
Saric
SAC lotto pick '19
MIA pick '21 (likely made similar trade as Brand did)
Max cap space this summer

That is so much brighter than the future PHI has now, because they got short-sighted and didn't Trust the Process.

I love how people forget that the Philly core under Hinkie consisted of Noel, Embiid, and Okafor.

They didn’t have Simmons and there’s no telling what players he would have picked up over the next few years, or what their lottery position would have been.

The idea the Hinkie would have been smart enough to pick Tatum or Mitchell is hilarious. He showed no evidence he had the basketball chops to scout that well.

Philly botched the assets he left behind, but he wasn’t a good GM. Not sure why people still cling to the idea he was anymore than a good accumulator of draft picks.

That said, the process itself, or a version of it, could have worked. But not under Hinkie.

[Mik317]

people think the process was just tank to get the top pick or bust. While yeah that was ideal, the idea was simply to not try to "just make the playoffs" every year like we had every prior season. W/ a top 10 pick...especially back to back, you should amass talent; either to build w/ or to trade. Hinkie, as I have always said, went overboard at times but the idea of not overpaying vets and being "fine" with down years to restock you asset pile is the exact way to build your team.

Boston had the Nets to do it for them but their team is stocked w/ top 3 picks. As stated above; yeah Giannis was the 15th pick but they also were pretty dang bad for two seasons afterward...this allowed them to get assets to use in trades but also let Giannis learn on the fly instead of being chained to a bench because Damien Wilkins has to play so they could make the playoffs (**** you Doug). Embiid being dead for two years and Simmons for one probably made the process last longer than it should. Hell, we made the playoffs the first time both were available to play ffs.

Is it a guarantee to work? hell no, nothing in this world is. You gotta be able to evaluate talent still. Having a higher pick gives you a bigger list of prospects but that is more room to draft a bust. The process could have been kneecapped by Jah and Fultz. So it is still very risky. BUT you hit on one and you are set. Thats damn sure better than hoping your collection of okay guys can work.

also also...people seem to forget that the team prior to the process was gutted via the Bynum trade. So yeah again while Hinkie probably went overboard..that team did not have much of a path to greatness anyway.

[Red8911]

I agree with griffin. Even if they trade AD, why not bring in more good players or another star instead of picks? That’s the best way and that’s how you stay competitive. The only time teams should rebuild is when their star leaves,gets older, or gets a serious injury.

[Martensitic]

Philly tanked all these years and they still have nothing to show.

They are not a championship team and they do not have any assets anymore. Their superstar is also on a minutes restriction in the playoffs.

This one is funny. Philadelphia was 5 years out of the playoffs. There are plenty of teams that have either tanked or tried to win that have been the same or more years without getting a taste of playoff basketball during the same timespan.

[HotelVitale]

Of the top teams right now, Warriors/Raptors/Bucks, none of them got there by tanking. Warriors and Raps have 2 of the best FO's in the league and the Bucks, while up and down, got very fortunate with Giannis

This seems totally wrong or at least misguided. Not sure why everyone forgets that the Warriors were bad for as long as the Sixers were--remember the full 4 years of Don Nelson-Monta Ellis chuckfests that every pundit slammed?--and that run gave them five lotto picks, two of which were big hits in Klay and Curry. They also had five other top-10 picks in the decade before that, and you could argue that getting two all-stars out of ten top picks was just the odds paying off for them--if you're bad for the greater part of 15 years, you'll probably end up hitting on a few picks.

The Bucks are slightly different but that point seems even worse. They haven't made it out of the 1st rd since 2001, and they picked SEVEN times in the top 10 from 2005-2015. Are you really advocating for doing literally 17 years of flipping between 8th seed seasons and tank-like seasons instead of a few years of tanking? Also the only thing that got them out of that was making what may go down as the single luckiest and best value draft pick of all time, and you obviously can't plan a rebuild around that (the odds are like 1 in 2500 that will happen).

Tanking is about getting lucky in the lottery and just dumb random luck, not just losing as much as you can.Philly got really lucky with ping pong balls and other dumb luck, and even then they almost screwed it up.

What? Philly was very unlucky for most of the Process. A few examples are the Lakers winning the lotto not once but twice to keep their top-3 protected pick and the Heat finishing one win away from giving the Sixers another top-10 pick (which became a #25 pick or something the next year), plus the obvious bad luck of drafting players almost everyone thought were top-3 prospects in the draft THREE times and having them totally bust (Noel, Okafor, and Fultz). Plus the Sixers picked 3rd, 3rd, and 5th three of those four years, so they weren't exactly getting a ton of lotto luck. I could keep going but the idea that the Sixers were lucky misses what the Process actually was: the Sixers gave themselves like 12 shots at a top-5 pick and literally 30 or 40 chances at finding diamonds in the rough--they hit on a few of those but I'd argue they probably had bad luck overall, and definitely weren't gifted anything that was statistically likely to come their way.

[JonFromVA]

If Hinkie had been allowed to stay on, ...

Hinkie quit rather than accept a lesser role where he might had still influenced decisions.

Nice conjecture, though.

Fact is Hinkie dug his own grave by exploiting league rules and then flaunting it.

Hinkie was well within those rules and did nothing wrong. He was doing a good job with assets until that creepy rat looking MF in Silver got involved. Hinkie should still be there now.

A major part of Silver's job is to protect the integrity of the game ... the only question you should have is why didn't he get involved sooner.

Did you know flopping is also considered a violation against the integrity of the game? The problem is that it can be hard to positively prove. Hinkie made that part simple damaging the reputation of both the league and the Sixers.

[Flash17]

Treadmill team confirmed.

It's funny because that's exactly what the Thunder are.

[HotelVitale]

I love how people forget that the Philly core under Hinkie consisted of Noel, Embiid, and Okafor. They didn’t have Simmons and there’s no telling what players he would have picked up over the next few years, or what their lottery position would have been. The idea the Hinkie would have been smart enough to pick Tatum or Mitchell is hilarious. He showed no evidence he had the basketball chops to scout that well. Philly botched the assets he left behind, but he wasn’t a good GM. Not sure why people still cling to the idea he was anymore than a good accumulator of draft picks. That said, the process itself, or a version of it, could have worked. But not under Hinkie.

Rats, the idea that the GM who takes one top-5 prospect and gets it right is a genius and the one who takes another top-5 prospect and gets it wrong is a moron. You probably think Danny Ainge is one of those smart drafters--he was a massive Okafor fan and would've loved to pick him at #3, and he also was on record saying he would've traded four 1st rounders (apparently including one of the BKN picks) for Justise Winslow. It's not because Ainge's secretly an idiot, it's because both those guys were good prospects that didn't develop as well as many hoped. If you think that someone could look at Nerlens Noel as an 18 year old and say 'I've looked into my crystal ball: this enormous human with excellent agility and instincts will definitely never learn how to make defensive rotations, he won't develop a jumper or any touch, and he won't even be a very good shot blocker,' I'm not sure what to tell you. Stop hero worshipping for one.

In any case, the entire point of the Process was the fact that the draft largely comes down to luck and that no team should be over confident in their ability to nail a given pick or two. It was about getting as many cracks at a top player as possible and using other ways of picking up undervalued players (guys like Covington, Jerami Grant, etc) as you wait for those top players to come your way.

[JonFromVA]

This seems totally wrong or at least misguided. Not sure why everyone forgets that the Warriors were bad for as long as the Sixers were--remember the full 4 years of Don Nelson-Monta Ellis chuckfests in which they were one of the worst teams in the league--and that run gave them five lotto picks, two of which were big hits in Klay and Curry.

He said the Warriors didn't tank. If you think they did, perhaps you don't understand what the word means?

[eagereyez]

Philly tanked all these years and they still have nothing to show.

They are not a championship team and they do not have any assets anymore. Their superstar is also on a minutes restriction in the playoffs.

Hard to have things to show for it when the NBA sabotages your efforts by instilling a bottom 1/5 GM who bleeds your assets for 2 years. And despite that the Sixers are still considered a contender to come out of the East.

[JonFromVA]

I love how people forget that the Philly core under Hinkie consisted of Noel, Embiid, and Okafor. They didn’t have Simmons and there’s no telling what players he would have picked up over the next few years, or what their lottery position would have been. The idea the Hinkie would have been smart enough to pick Tatum or Mitchell is hilarious. He showed no evidence he had the basketball chops to scout that well. Philly botched the assets he left behind, but he wasn’t a good GM. Not sure why people still cling to the idea he was anymore than a good accumulator of draft picks. That said, the process itself, or a version of it, could have worked. But not under Hinkie.

Rats, the idea that the GM who takes one top-5 prospect and gets it right is a genius and the one who takes another top-5 prospect and gets it wrong is a moron. You probably think Danny Ainge is one of those smart drafters--he was a massive Okafor fan and would've loved to pick him at #3, and he also was on record saying he would've traded four 1st rounders (apparently including one of the BKN picks) for Justise Winslow. It's not because Ainge's secretly an idiot, it's because both those guys were good prospects that didn't develop as well as many hoped. If you think that someone could look at Nerlens Noel as an 18 year old and say 'I've looked into my crystal ball: this enormous human with excellent agility and instincts will definitely never learn how to make defensive rotations, he won't develop a jumper or any touch, and he won't even be a very good shot blocker,' I'm not sure what to tell you. Stop hero worshipping for one.

In any case, the entire point of the Process was the fact that the draft largely comes down to luck and that no team should be over confident in their ability to nail a given pick or two. It was about getting as many cracks at a top player as possible and using other ways of picking up undervalued players (guys like Covington, Jerami Grant, etc) as you wait for those top players to come your way.

One thing I've learned from reading draft profiles is to pay attention to a player's list of weaknesses ... they are far more likely to come true than their list of strengths. No crystal ball required. An organization drafting a player like Noel had better understand whether he can improve, whether he wants to improve, and whether they have the structure in place to help him improve.

Even nbadraft.net nails Noel's and Okafor's weaknesses pretty darn well (feel free to look it up), so even a team without a scouting department should have been well aware of the risks. These are not coin flips, these are actual issues that don't go away unless they can be addressed.

Perhaps the hardest decision for a GM is deciding when not to go after the "high-upside" prospect and just take the kid with the work-ethic who will minimally become a solid pro ... and visa-versa. That's talent and character evaluation and knowing what your organization can do (and cannot do) to help a prospect, not a coin flip, not analytics.

The Warriors had a lot of success drafting players who stayed in school for 3 or more years when other team's have often failed when trying to do the same. This looks a lot like a pattern to me, not a coin flip.