Best Player in League?

LKN · Post #161 » by **LKN** » Sat May 18, 2019 12:26 am

Giannis is the easy answer. He impacts the opposing teams strategy more than any other player in the league. On defense they have to build a wall and on offense they have to be aware of Giannis at all times. He's in the argument for best defender in the league and of those guys is pretty easily the most versatile. Gobert and Embiid aren't guarding PGs like Giannis is and no one recovers from helping at the rim to contesting corner threes better than Giannis.

- The Bucks attempted the 2nd highest number of Wide open 3s per gam
- The Bucks were #3 in PITP
- The Bucks were #3 in FTA Rate
- The Bucks were #3 in ORTG
- The Bucks were #6 in FBPS
- The Bucks were #1 in Opponent Points in the Pain
- The Bucks were #1 in Opponent FBPS
- The Bucks were #1 in DRTG

Does Giannis get 100% of the credit for all these things? No, but he's the main reason for all of them. The only guys in recent history I've seen warp a defense like Giannis are Curry and Lebron.

I can't think of a single player in the league that you could replace Giannis with and not have the Bucks fall off. The only one in recent history you could possibly say that about is younger Lebron.

I will say, that my dream would be to see Giannis and Curry team up. That is the most unfair thing I can possibly imagine in basketball.

freethedevil · Post #162 » by **freethedevil** » Sat May 18, 2019 12:36 am

kuclas wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
kuclas wrote:Lebron has one more year to prove he's still the best. So I vote for LeBron. The Lakers likely finish 3 lebron healthy and team didn't quit after the AD fiasco.

Which means likely lebron gets pass the nuggets and in conference finals.

And we wouldn't be having this discussion

if curry didn't sprain his ankle he likely wins back to back titles with the greatest team of all time.

And yet we still have the conversation.

Lol. If LeBron had love and kyrie in 2015. Curry wins nothing.

That's relevant how? If you can't contribute to your team you don't get credit for contributing to your team. Lebron's injury takes him out of the discussion.

freethedevil · Post #163 » by **freethedevil** » Sat May 18, 2019 12:41 am

WarriorGM wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
What goes unappreciated is that Draymond's and Iguodala's defensive contributions are so often important because the team is still in the game because of Steph's offense. If they were on another team with a less potent offense their defensive contributions would be for naught. Case in point look at the Utah Jazz.

Giannis can both run and be the focal point of one of the league's best offences while anchoring the league's best defence. I don't care what you wanna say about steph's value to the warriors. Steph>>Giannis is a horrible take.

They are comparable. I haven't really seen a lot of Giannis so won't make a judgment. If they make the finals then we'll have something good to go on. Steph still led the league in +/- but Giannis was second.

giannis led the league in pipm by a landslide(gap between curry and giannis was the gap between curry and 7th placed harden). pipm off course being a greatly refined version of +?- who's been tested to be the most predictive of advanced stats.

Giannis claps curry by any measure, team success or impact data. Add in curry's woeful scoring through most of the second round and this shouldn't even be a discussion. The second best defender in the league is better than steph curry.

freethedevil · Post #164 » by **freethedevil** » Sat May 18, 2019 12:42 am

LKN wrote:Giannis is the easy answer. He impacts the opposing teams strategy more than any other player in the league. On defense they have to build a wall and on offense they have to be aware of Giannis at all times. He's in the argument for best defender in the league and of those guys is pretty easily the most versatile. Gobert and Embiid aren't guarding PGs like Giannis is and no one recovers from helping at the rim to contesting corner threes better than Giannis.

- The Bucks attempted the 2nd highest number of Wide open 3s per gam
- The Bucks were #3 in PITP
- The Bucks were #3 in FTA Rate
- The Bucks were #3 in ORTG
- The Bucks were #6 in FBPS
- The Bucks were #1 in Opponent Points in the Pain
- The Bucks were #1 in Opponent FBPS
- The Bucks were #1 in ORTG

Does Giannis get 100% of the credit for all these things? No, but he's the main reason for all of them. The only guys in recent history I've seen warp a defense like Giannis are Curry and Lebron.

I can't think of a single player in the league that you could replace Giannis with and not have the Bucks fall off. The only one in recent history you could possibly say that about is younger Lebron.

I will say, that my dream would be to see Giannis and Curry team up. That is the most unfair thing I can possibly imagine in basketball.

Surrounding those two with g leaguers would be an interesting experiment.

WarriorGM · Post #165 » by **WarriorGM** » Sat May 18, 2019 4:37 am

freethedevil wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
freethedevil wrote:Giannis can both run and be the focal point of one of the league's best offences while anchoring the league's best defence. I don't care what you wanna say about steph's value to the warriors. Steph>>Giannis is a horrible take.

They are comparable. I haven't really seen a lot of Giannis so won't make a judgment. If they make the finals then we'll have something good to go on. Steph still led the league in +/- but Giannis was second.

giannis led the league in pipm by a landslide(gap between curry and giannis was the gap between curry and 7th placed harden). pipm off course being a greatly refined version of +?- who's been tested to be the most predictive of advanced stats.

Giannis claps curry by any measure, team success or impact data. Add in curry's woeful scoring through most of the second round and this shouldn't even be a discussion. The second best defender in the league is better than steph curry.

Does it take into account Curry's 13 missed games? As for derivative indicators and claims saying they're the best, I've learned to be skeptical of such claims from my own experience. Their purported superiority is just as likely to be a result of data mining.

JazzUte88 · Post #166 » by **JazzUte88** » Sat May 18, 2019 5:05 am

freethedevil wrote:
pr0wler wrote:
UtahJazzFan88 wrote:Too much recency bias.

This. Kawhi, while still a great player, goes from a Top 7 type guy to clear #1 in a lot of people's eyes based on two playoff series.

imagine complaining about recency bias when discussing who is currently the best player...

The point is that it isn't about a few games. It's a large body of work. Kawhi is a great player but he's not the best in the league above Durant, James, Curry.

NY 567 · Post #167 » by **NY 567** » Sat May 18, 2019 6:02 am

Giannis. Kawhis decision making and mediocre playmaking hurts him in the best player in the league discussion imo

NY 567 · Post #168 » by **NY 567** » Sat May 18, 2019 6:05 am

spikeslovechild wrote:Giannis
Kawhi
Harden

In that order. Lol @ including Jokic

Loling at Jokic is silly when he's better than a guy who you erroneously included in your list, Harden

laika · Post #169 » by **laika** » Sat May 18, 2019 6:22 am

freethedevil wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
freethedevil wrote:Giannis can both run and be the focal point of one of the league's best offences while anchoring the league's best defence. I don't care what you wanna say about steph's value to the warriors. Steph>>Giannis is a horrible take.

They are comparable. I haven't really seen a lot of Giannis so won't make a judgment. If they make the finals then we'll have something good to go on. Steph still led the league in +/- but Giannis was second.

giannis led the league in pipm by a landslide(gap between curry and giannis was the gap between curry and 7th placed harden). pipm off course being a greatly refined version of +?- who's been tested to be the most predictive of advanced stats.

Giannis claps curry by any measure, team success or impact data. Add in curry's woeful scoring through most of the second round and this shouldn't even be a discussion. The second best defender in the league is better than steph curry.

Wrong.
Curry might have the GOAT run over the last 5 years. Even this year he has had the highest impact.
Giannis is the clear second place though.
Anyone who voted for Kawhi, Durant or Lebron should be embarrassed.

freethedevil · Post #170 » by **freethedevil** » Sat May 18, 2019 7:06 am

laika wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
They are comparable. I haven't really seen a lot of Giannis so won't make a judgment. If they make the finals then we'll have something good to go on. Steph still led the league in +/- but Giannis was second.

giannis led the league in pipm by a landslide(gap between curry and giannis was the gap between curry and 7th placed harden). pipm off course being a greatly refined version of +?- who's been tested to be the most predictive of advanced stats.

Giannis claps curry by any measure, team success or impact data. Add in curry's woeful scoring through most of the second round and this shouldn't even be a discussion. The second best defender in the league is better than steph curry.

Wrong.
Curry might have the GOAT run over the last 5 years. .

Even if i granted you that. That doesn't change whose currently better.

freethedevil · Post #171 » by **freethedevil** » Sat May 18, 2019 7:09 am

WarriorGM wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
They are comparable. I haven't really seen a lot of Giannis so won't make a judgment. If they make the finals then we'll have something good to go on. Steph still led the league in +/- but Giannis was second.

giannis led the league in pipm by a landslide(gap between curry and giannis was the gap between curry and 7th placed harden). pipm off course being a greatly refined version of +?- who's been tested to be the most predictive of advanced stats.

Giannis claps curry by any measure, team success or impact data. Add in curry's woeful scoring through most of the second round and this shouldn't even be a discussion. The second best defender in the league is better than steph curry.

Does it take into account Curry's 13 missed games? As for derivative indicators and claims saying they're the best, I've learned to be skeptical of such claims from my own experience. Their purported superiority is just as likely to be a result of data mining.

It's per minuite. You're skeptical of whatever challenges your opinions on steph.

WarriorGM · Post #172 » by **WarriorGM** » Sat May 18, 2019 7:42 am

freethedevil wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
freethedevil wrote:giannis led the league in pipm by a landslide(gap between curry and giannis was the gap between curry and 7th placed harden). pipm off course being a greatly refined version of +?- who's been tested to be the most predictive of advanced stats.

Giannis claps curry by any measure, team success or impact data. Add in curry's woeful scoring through most of the second round and this shouldn't even be a discussion. The second best defender in the league is better than steph curry.

Does it take into account Curry's 13 missed games? As for derivative indicators and claims saying they're the best, I've learned to be skeptical of such claims from my own experience. Their purported superiority is just as likely to be a result of data mining.

It's per minuite. You're skeptical of whatever challenges your opinions on steph.

Of course I am. I see this guy win like almost no one else in NBA history.

letskissbro · Post #173 » by **letskissbro** » Sat May 18, 2019 10:03 am

Curry gets his numbers by roasting teams that have poor defensive communication and give him open looks around screens/during his off ball movement. Take a look at his numbers against top 10 defenses vs. bottom 10 defenses. The difference is jarring, by far the greatest out of any superstar for two years now:

https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/stats/2019/Averages/Qualified/points/All/desc/1/Opponent_Top_10_Defense
https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/stats/2019/Averages/Qualified/points/All/desc/1/Opponent_Top_10_Defense

It's a joke that he can have 3 straight good games and have his cult-like fanbase force him into the discussion despite him consistently playing like CJ McCollum against teams that know what they're doing. It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that he's playing well now that he gets to play against the Blazers and Kanter who straight up refuses to close out on the perimeter. Had he played the way he did in round 2 on any other team he'd be home right now. Give it a rest, he hasn't played like the best player in the league since the 2016 regular season. Move on.

righterwriter · Post #174 » by **righterwriter** » Sat May 18, 2019 10:24 am

Which one of these guys has 3-rings (soon to be 4, if I was a betting man) and 2 MVPs?

The disrespect for Curry continues on.

iggymcfrack · Post #175 » by **iggymcfrack** » Sat May 18, 2019 10:54 am

righterwriter wrote:Which one of these guys has 3-rings (soon to be 4, if I was a betting man) and 2 MVPs?

The disrespect for Curry continues on.

Everyone’s knows that Curry had great regular seasons in 2015 and 2016. That’s not in dispute. It also doesn’t make him better than GIannis or Kawhi right now. I’m also not so sure about that 4th ring. If Curry with KD, Dray, Klay, and Iggy is a near tossup against Giannis with Middleton, Mirotic, Bledsoe, and Lopez, what does that say about who’s the better player?

iggymcfrack · Post #176 » by **iggymcfrack** » Sat May 18, 2019 10:56 am

I have to say Giannis has been pretty damn impressive the first 2 games this series. It’s hard for me to say there’s anyone better than him right now. I voted Kawhi when the poll came out, but honestly I can’t say it’s more than a tossup between the two of them.

Madhouse · Post #177 » by **Madhouse** » Sat May 18, 2019 11:07 am

Giannis leads the NBA in win shares/48 minutes and PER in both regular season AND playoffs.

I don't know what else needs to be said.

He is the best defensive player in basketball and among the best offensively. Just stats don't do him justice with the attention he draws but still 28/13/6 on 58% shooting is still legendary.

I think we are looking at the best player since Jordan and the clear cut best player in basketball.

freethedevil · Post #178 » by **freethedevil** » Sat May 18, 2019 12:07 pm

Madhouse wrote:Giannis leads the NBA in win shares/48 minutes and PER in both regular season AND playoffs.

I don't know what else needs to be said.

He is the best defensive player in basketball and among the best offensively. Just stats don't do him justice with the attention he draws but still 28/13/6 on 58% shooting is still legendary.

I think we are looking at the best player since Jordan and the clear cut best player in basketball.

ws/48 disagrees with you
https://www.basketball-referehttps://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_season.htmlnce.com/leaders/ws_per_48_season_p.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_season.html

Madhouse · Post #179 » by **Madhouse** » Sat May 18, 2019 12:20 pm

freethedevil wrote:
Madhouse wrote:Giannis leads the NBA in win shares/48 minutes and PER in both regular season AND playoffs.

I don't know what else needs to be said.

He is the best defensive player in basketball and among the best offensively. Just stats don't do him justice with the attention he draws but still 28/13/6 on 58% shooting is still legendary.

I think we are looking at the best player since Jordan and the clear cut best player in basketball.

ws/48 disagrees with you
https://www.basketball-referehttps://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_season.htmlnce.com/leaders/ws_per_48_season_p.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_season.html

I guess so but I also think he could hit that .32 or so mark when he hits his prime.

Madhouse · Post #180 » by **Madhouse** » Sat May 18, 2019 12:20 pm

freethedevil wrote:
Madhouse wrote:Giannis leads the NBA in win shares/48 minutes and PER in both regular season AND playoffs.

I don't know what else needs to be said.

He is the best defensive player in basketball and among the best offensively. Just stats don't do him justice with the attention he draws but still 28/13/6 on 58% shooting is still legendary.

I think we are looking at the best player since Jordan and the clear cut best player in basketball.

ws/48 disagrees with you
https://www.basketball-referehttps://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_season.htmlnce.com/leaders/ws_per_48_season_p.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_season.html

I guess so but I also think he could hit that .32 or so mark when he hits his prime.