Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand?

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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#161 » by Chris_SoCal » Thu May 16, 2019 6:06 am

og15 wrote:
Triples333 wrote:
Peregrine01 wrote:GSW with Curry and without Durant is now 31-4. That’s basically the 73 win season.

Curry is better at KD at the only thing that matters in the end: contributing to his team winning.

Wow interesting, it actually is. Both round to 89% win percentages, with 4 of those 31-4 being playoff games (all wins).

Regular season and playoffs do differ though. I have no doubt the Warriors could win just as many, even more RS games if they didn’t add Durant, but they wouldn’t have walked through the playoffs like they did in 16-17, and they would have had more than only two real challenges in the playoffs, both by the same team in the last 3 seasons.

Let’s look at regular season Ortg vs playoff series Ortg and then also Curry and Durant’s playoff On/Off Ortg since 14-15 (Durant 16-17). Using Bball-Ref numbers, not NBA.com.


14-15
Regular Season: 111.6
Playoffs: 108.7
Vs NOP: 116.8
Vs MEM: 107.0
Vs HOU: 110.7
Vs CLE: 107.3

On Court: 107.8
Off Court: 110.1

15-16
Regular Season: 114.5
Playoffs: 110.5
Vs HOU: 112.6
Vs POR: 117.3
Vs OKC: 107.8
Vs CLE: 109.1
.

I have a question about your stat... isn't more a criticism of the coaches substitution pattern than that it is purely just the on off effect of a given player? Maybe one guy plays with the second team more? How does this stat control for that?
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#162 » by michaelm » Thu May 16, 2019 9:40 am

You can stop Curry if he doesn’t have anyone to whom he can pass. If he can pass to Durant GSW are close to invincible particularly given their other talent.

This continuing detraction from Durant is nonsense though. He is possibly the most versatile scorer in NBA history, and his guard skills are incredible at his height. He is a reasonable playmaker, but why does he have to be an elite playmaker as well as all his other attributes?. How many players in history have had anything close to his scoring talent and been elite playmakers?. Very few, and those who were are probably mostly top 5 players in NBA history.

He is complementary to Curry and vice versa, neither has to be better than the other, or this should be the case for GSW fans at least while both are playing for GSW.
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#163 » by michaelm » Thu May 16, 2019 10:00 am

dred926 wrote:Curry.. Durant is a cupcake... until durant wins a title without Curry then we have yet to see it... Durant made team unbeatable for sure but Durant choked out with westbrook on that 3-1 lead. If he is so good why didnt he killed harrison barnes/IGGY? to win that game 7... as good as durant is offensively .. curry is on another level if he is on as well.

You dont hear kids shooting long bombs because of durant ... People forget that the 3 ball is in play because of the splash brothers... KD and the rest just followed

OKC had a poor system and bad coaching, and a poorly constructed roster once Harden was gone with insufficient other shooters. It worked alright while Westbrook and Durant were fresh, but broke down at the end of play-off games and series when they were tired, particularly Westbrook who relied so much on his athleticism. I agree with OG’s post, what Durant needs is a selfless quality playmaker and not much else.
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#164 » by Woody Allen » Thu May 16, 2019 11:39 am

Admiral-Kizaru wrote:
benhillboy wrote:I just can’t undertand the comparisons between he and Durant. One guy has better than a 2:1 assist to turnover and a career .436 three point shooter. The other has a 4:3 assist to turn and shoots .381 from three. One is blitzed even without the ball, the other is allowed to iso at will.

The records of one without the other is overwhelmingly in favor of Steph. Steph has led the league in steals twice, KD has barely sniffed All Defense. What am I missing?


This is a hot take but yes, Curry is a better overall Basketball player than Durant. Durant is the better Iso scorer due to his height and ability to draw fouls hence the nickname FT35, but basketball is a team game and Steph simply makes the whole team better while Durant does not to the same level.



You just made up that dumb nickname lol
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#165 » by Young gun 6 » Thu May 16, 2019 11:44 am

Performances in finals is enough to warrant KD over Curry.

Curry chokes horrifically in at least one finals game every year.

It’s the reason he can’t even nab a finals mvp in 3 goes.
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#166 » by abark » Thu May 16, 2019 12:45 pm

Young gun 6 wrote:Performances in finals is enough to warrant KD over Curry.

Curry chokes horrifically in at least one finals game every year.

It’s the reason he can’t even nab a finals mvp in 3 goes.

In 2017 he averaged
27 / 8 / 9 / 2.2 on 62% TS

In the 2018 Finals Curry averaged
28 / 6 / 7 / 1.5 on 56% TS

It is true that Durant has played better and his shooting percentages have been incredible. Still Curry obviously would have been mvp if Durant hadn't played so well both years. We'll see what happens this year.

And Curry's game is much streakier overall because he relies more heavily on threes. Off games are to be expected. But he can be even more deadly when he is on.

Overall, I think Curry has sacrificed a lot since Durant joined the team. I really dont feel like we've seen his full talents on display and his legacy will suffer bc of it.
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#167 » by TaylorTRoom » Thu May 16, 2019 1:00 pm

One thing is clear to me- Curry covets wins. That’s why, as great as his individual talent is, he humbly welcomes Durant and grants him presence in the locker room, with no jealousy. That’s why he works so hard off the ball, to help his teammates score, when other great shooters would be looking primarily for their next shot. Dude may want wins as much as anyone who has ever played. That’s why I believe he is underrated as a leader.

Durant likes to win too, but I see him as a basketball purist first and foremost- he wants his game to be perfect and he wants his team’s scheme to be perfect. He plays with a degree of selflessness too (there has never before been a scorer this great that took so few shots)- because he believes that is “the right way”.

Both are easy to root for.
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#168 » by og15 » Fri May 17, 2019 2:11 am

Chris_SoCal wrote:
og15 wrote:
Triples333 wrote:Wow interesting, it actually is. Both round to 89% win percentages, with 4 of those 31-4 being playoff games (all wins).

Regular season and playoffs do differ though. I have no doubt the Warriors could win just as many, even more RS games if they didn’t add Durant, but they wouldn’t have walked through the playoffs like they did in 16-17, and they would have had more than only two real challenges in the playoffs, both by the same team in the last 3 seasons.

Let’s look at regular season Ortg vs playoff series Ortg and then also Curry and Durant’s playoff On/Off Ortg since 14-15 (Durant 16-17). Using Bball-Ref numbers, not NBA.com.


14-15
Regular Season: 111.6
Playoffs: 108.7
Vs NOP: 116.8
Vs MEM: 107.0
Vs HOU: 110.7
Vs CLE: 107.3

On Court: 107.8
Off Court: 110.1

15-16
Regular Season: 114.5
Playoffs: 110.5
Vs HOU: 112.6
Vs POR: 117.3
Vs OKC: 107.8
Vs CLE: 109.1
.

I have a question about your stat... isn't more a criticism of the coaches substitution pattern than that it is purely just the on off effect of a given player? Maybe one guy plays with the second team more? How does this stat control for that?

It's certainly not my stat, and it does not control for sub patterns, something like RPM is what aims to do that. The point isn't to cover every nuance with the stat, it's to show that they team heavily benefits from both despite different talents.

If you want to look at Durant on without Curry and Curry on without Durant (NBA.com numbers)

16-17:
Together: 120.5
Curry no Durant: 113.8
Durant no Curry: 102.5

17-18:
Together: 120.6
Curry no Durant: 113.8
Durant no Curry: 106.9

18-19:
Together: 120.6
Curry no Durant: 108.6
Durant no Curry: 109.4

In 16-17 and 17-18, Curry kills him in that, offense is still very good without Durant, while for Durant, offense is poor without Curry. It was different this season, about the same without the other, but maybe an outlier or something has changed. So, we understand that the foundation of the team and the offense is built around Curry, therefore the offense should be better without Durant that without Curry, but that much better? The gap those first two seasons was huge. Okay, so maybe it is about who Durant playing with in those minutes?

In 17-18 they went 11-3 in the early games Curry missed, but they had a mediocre offense and great defense, good NetRtg, but offense was nowhere as good. They were 7-10 in the other games he missed, Durant was out for 6 of those games, Green 4, Thompson 8, they were more concerned about resting at that point, so fine, it wasn't a good sample size to judge.

First round against the Spurs without Curry, they had a 113.7 Ortg and then a 118.5 Ortg in game 1 vs New Orleans without Curry. Small sample. It's all data, it needs to be interpreted and given context. The data though doesn't say that in a vacuum, Curry is a better player than Durant or vice versa.
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#169 » by freethedevil » Fri May 17, 2019 3:24 am

Da ThRONe wrote:A-

Yes a dbpm of 0.2 is what you get from a- defence lol...
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#170 » by MrBigShot » Fri May 17, 2019 3:34 am

In these playoffs KD has been superior. Steph is affected by the allowance of more physical play in the playoffs moreso than KD.
"They say you miss 100% of the shots you take" - Mike James
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#171 » by freethedevil » Fri May 17, 2019 4:21 am

Young gun 6 wrote:Performances in finals is enough to warrant KD over Curry.
.

How about performance in the wcf? Since kd's couldn't make the finals vs curry
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#172 » by freethedevil » Fri May 17, 2019 4:23 am

og15 wrote:
Chris_SoCal wrote:
og15 wrote:The data though doesn't say that in a vacuum, Curry is a better player than Durant or vice versa.

The idea that an elite scorer would be better in a vacuum than an elite scorer and playmaker shows is hilarious.
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#173 » by DaTRUTHk11 » Fri May 17, 2019 4:33 am

Durant makes the big shots over lebron twice in the Finals thus winning Finals MVP. Elite Wings=best players in the NBA. KD, Kawhii, Giannis.

Curry is easily the best PG in the league but he can't guard everyone and will struggle to get his shot off when guarded by elite wing defenders that are much taller than him. No one can block KD with his wingspan and height. Don't overthink this guys. Curry lost without him with a 73-9 team with Kyrie shutting him down. KD gets that shot off clean every time.
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#174 » by freethedevil » Fri May 17, 2019 4:41 am

DaTRUTHk11 wrote:Durant makes the big shots over lebron twice in the Finals thus winning Finals MVP. Elite Wings=best players in the NBA. KD, Kawhii, Giannis.

Curry is easily the best PG in the league but he can't guard everyone and will struggle to get his shot off when guarded by elite wing defenders that are much taller than him. No one can block KD with his wingspan and height. Don't overthink this guys. Curry lost without him with a 73-9 team with Kyrie shutting him down. KD gets that shot off clean every time.

Imagine thinking 2 shots ake you a better player lol.

KD only gets his shot off clean because curry's drawing the defence away. KD's ts dropped by 10% vs the rockets in 2019 when curry was off the court. There remains no argument based in fact for kd over curry.
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#175 » by freethedevil » Fri May 17, 2019 4:44 am

michaelm wrote:
dred926 wrote:Curry.. Durant is a cupcake... until durant wins a title without Curry then we have yet to see it... Durant made team unbeatable for sure but Durant choked out with westbrook on that 3-1 lead. If he is so good why didnt he killed harrison barnes/IGGY? to win that game 7... as good as durant is offensively .. curry is on another level if he is on as well.

You dont hear kids shooting long bombs because of durant ... People forget that the 3 ball is in play because of the splash brothers... KD and the rest just followed

OKC had a poor system and bad coaching, and a poorly constructed roster once Harden was gone with insufficient other shooters. It worked alright while Westbrook and Durant were fresh, but broke down at the end of play-off games and series when they were tired, particularly Westbrook who relied so much on his athleticism. I agree with OG’s post, what Durant needs is a selfless quality playmaker and not much else.

Talk about spoiled lol. westbrook was a great playmaker at his peak. No, what kd needed was arguably the best playmeker+arguably the best scorer in the league. If Durant was anywhere near the shooter curry was, then that "lack of shooting" wouldn't have been sas much of a problem would it? Reality is Curry would have been better for okc or gsw than durant was.
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#176 » by freethedevil » Fri May 17, 2019 4:47 am

ken6199 wrote:
Vladimir777 wrote:
clyde21 wrote:Steph has a higher ceiling but a lower floor

Durant has a lower ceiling but a higher floor

whoever is better apparently hinges on whoever had the last best game per RealGM.


I would say this is the most accurate post.

For me, I value consistency, so I take Durant, but I understand that others take Curry. My problem is when people act like one or the other aren’t in the same league. They’re very similar in terms of how great both are. And they’re both **** great!

,
This is universally recognized as the most powerful way to convey a point these days. "Blah blah blah and it's not even close".

when the numbers say it's not even close and you say blah blah blah, I'm not sure what your gripe is
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#177 » by DaTRUTHk11 » Fri May 17, 2019 4:55 am

freethedevil wrote:
DaTRUTHk11 wrote:Durant makes the big shots over lebron twice in the Finals thus winning Finals MVP. Elite Wings=best players in the NBA. KD, Kawhii, Giannis.

Curry is easily the best PG in the league but he can't guard everyone and will struggle to get his shot off when guarded by elite wing defenders that are much taller than him. No one can block KD with his wingspan and height. Don't overthink this guys. Curry lost without him with a 73-9 team with Kyrie shutting him down. KD gets that shot off clean every time.

Imagine thinking 2 shots ake you a better player lol.

KD only gets his shot off clean because curry's drawing the defence away. KD's ts dropped by 10% vs the rockets in 2019 when curry was off the court. There remains no argument based in fact for kd over curry.


Facts? KD led GSW 2-0 including 4-0 & 4-1 against FULLY HEALTHY Cavs in the Finals. Curry led GSW 1-1 including 4-2 Win (No Kyrie, No Love) & 4-3 loss (Against healthy team). After that loss in the finals, if GSW keeps trash Barnes (He shot about 10% in the last 3 games nearly all of them wide open). You are also completely neglecting KD's defense, which is 100x better than Barnes defense on his best day (LBJ salivated whenever that loser "tried" to guard him while KD blocked multiple shots of LBJ throughout the playoffs).

Without KD and keeping Barnes, GSW doesn't make any more finals. This was perhaps the best move in the history of game trading a god awful Barnes for the best player in KD.
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#178 » by WarriorGM » Fri May 17, 2019 5:06 am

abark wrote:
Young gun 6 wrote:Performances in finals is enough to warrant KD over Curry.

Curry chokes horrifically in at least one finals game every year.

It’s the reason he can’t even nab a finals mvp in 3 goes.

In 2017 he averaged
27 / 8 / 9 / 2.2 on 62% TS

In the 2018 Finals Curry averaged
28 / 6 / 7 / 1.5 on 56% TS

It is true that Durant has played better and his shooting percentages have been incredible. Still Curry obviously would have been mvp if Durant hadn't played so well both years. We'll see what happens this year.

And Curry's game is much streakier overall because he relies more heavily on threes. Off games are to be expected. But he can be even more deadly when he is on.

Overall, I think Curry has sacrificed a lot since Durant joined the team. I really dont feel like we've seen his full talents on display and his legacy will suffer bc of it.


Referencing the stats like in the above as is common automatically ignores a lot of what Steph brings.

Steph is the main reason a lot of plays like this one develop.

Image

But where in the box score does his contribution show up? Steph doesn't score. Steph doesn't get the assist. But is anyone here going to say that scoring opportunity wasn't created by Steph?

Steph is so good that his box scores alone make him look like a top player. But he provides more than that. We see it all the time but there are people who don't give him the credit.
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#179 » by michaelm » Fri May 17, 2019 5:10 am

DaTRUTHk11 wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
DaTRUTHk11 wrote:Durant makes the big shots over lebron twice in the Finals thus winning Finals MVP. Elite Wings=best players in the NBA. KD, Kawhii, Giannis.

Curry is easily the best PG in the league but he can't guard everyone and will struggle to get his shot off when guarded by elite wing defenders that are much taller than him. No one can block KD with his wingspan and height. Don't overthink this guys. Curry lost without him with a 73-9 team with Kyrie shutting him down. KD gets that shot off clean every time.

Imagine thinking 2 shots ake you a better player lol.

KD only gets his shot off clean because curry's drawing the defence away. KD's ts dropped by 10% vs the rockets in 2019 when curry was off the court. There remains no argument based in fact for kd over curry.


Facts? KD led GSW 2-0 including 4-0 & 4-1 against FULLY HEALTHY Cavs in the Finals. Curry led GSW 1-1 including 4-2 Win (No Kyrie, No Love) & 4-3 loss (Against healthy team). After that loss in the finals, if GSW keeps trash Barnes (He shot about 10% in the last 3 games nearly all of them wide open). You are also completely neglecting KD's defense, which is 100x better than Barnes defense on his best day (LBJ salivated whenever that loser "tried" to guard him while KD blocked multiple shots of LBJ throughout the playoffs).

Without KD and keeping Barnes, GSW doesn't make any more finals. This was perhaps the best move in the history of game trading a god awful Barnes for the best player in KD.

Barnes was a pretty fair defender, in fact a member of the original small ball death squad which also contained Curry.

He was also a fairly good small ball PF in general imo. The problem was with him being an SF at which position he was not a good enough scorer, both in terms of volume and efficiency, as he proved afterwards with the Mavs. He actually knocked back an early season offer of more money than Klay and Green, and even more so Curry, were on, and imo was frozen out somewhat particularly by Green thereafter, which may have partially explained how bad he was in that finals. I rather suspect Durant for Durant money over Barnes for the Durant money he wanted didn’t take much pondering.
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#180 » by bronxknicksfan1 » Fri May 17, 2019 5:17 am

freethedevil wrote:
DaTRUTHk11 wrote:Durant makes the big shots over lebron twice in the Finals thus winning Finals MVP. Elite Wings=best players in the NBA. KD, Kawhii, Giannis.

Curry is easily the best PG in the league but he can't guard everyone and will struggle to get his shot off when guarded by elite wing defenders that are much taller than him. No one can block KD with his wingspan and height. Don't overthink this guys. Curry lost without him with a 73-9 team with Kyrie shutting him down. KD gets that shot off clean every time.

Imagine thinking 2 shots ake you a better player lol.

KD only gets his shot off clean because curry's drawing the defence away. KD's ts dropped by 10% vs the rockets in 2019 when curry was off the court. There remains no argument based in fact for kd over curry.


You mean in the same series that Steph disappeared in until Game 5?

I love Steph, easily one of my favorite players in the league. But some of your takes are absolutely horrible.

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