Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand?

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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#141 » by cpower » Wed May 15, 2019 10:03 pm

Young gun 6 wrote:More unstoppable on offense. false
About 150 times better as a defender.false
Better rebounder. false, Curry is better this year
Better shot blocker.
Better scorer. depends, in OKC they are close
Better at getting a bucket when you NEED one. false, blowing 3:1 lead in OKC
Better at scoring out of a double team. false, KD is terrible to deal with double team
Passes the eye test when watching both (isn’t as flashy but more pure scorer and actually defends).false

:lol:
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#142 » by dhsilv2 » Wed May 15, 2019 10:06 pm

Vladimir777 wrote:
Peregrine01 wrote:
Vladimir777 wrote:What if other teams double Steph because it’s EASIER to shut him down than it is KD? So they’d rather shut down ONE of them rather than NONE.

Just a thought.


If it was so easy to shut him down, why would they put two guys on him instead of Durant? It’s quite obvious that teams are far more fearful when Steph has the ball than when Durant has it.


First off, I'm not saying it's EASY to shut ANYONE down here. I'm saying maybe Steph can't be shut down with one defender, but CAN be shut down with two (I think this is a fair assessment). I suspect it'd be easier to shut down a small guard than it would KD. So they throw two defenders on him to do their best to shut him down and live with the results of KD feasting.

I'm not saying it is this way or not. Just a theory. I just imagine it would be easier to shut down a small guy like Curry than KD, so they gameplan to do so.


KD was "shut down" as much as Curry is when he was on OKC with westbrook. If teams pressure him they also are getting a worse passer to make those passes out of the double team (not that KD is terrible but you want him passing vs curry).
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#143 » by WarriorGM » Thu May 16, 2019 12:51 am

Da ThRONe wrote:It's simple both guys are A+ on offense Durant is a A- on defense while Curry is a C+


KD is an A+ on 1-on-1 offense but a B on 5-on-5 offense.
Steph is an A on 1-on-1 offense and an A+ on 5-on-5 offense.
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#144 » by TaylorTRoom » Thu May 16, 2019 1:00 am

There are a lot of bad points on this thread. The one that really bugs me is that Curry is a bad defender.

Three things go into defense- effort, knowledge and raw ability. Curry is lacking in only the last, because he is only 6’3” tall and slight of frame. That limits who he can cover, and how. Frankly, I think he is a good team defender for his physical capability.

KD also has good effort and knowledge on defense, but is also 7’ tall. That helps.
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#145 » by Ben Simmons » Thu May 16, 2019 1:20 am

benhillboy wrote:I just can’t undertand the comparisons between he and Durant. One guy has better than a 2:1 assist to turnover and a career .436 three point shooter. The other has a 4:3 assist to turn and shoots .381 from three. One is blitzed even without the ball, the other is allowed to iso at will.

The records of one without the other is overwhelmingly in favor of Steph. Steph has led the league in steals twice, KD has barely sniffed All Defense. What am I missing? If it’s Finals MVPs then inject Iggy into the comparison as well.

Durant doesn't even play Point Guard and he still averaged more assists than Curry this year (Durant 5.9apg, Curry 5.2apg), and more rebounds....
And you can't trust Curry in the NBA Finals, he's not reliable :noway:
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#146 » by Vladimir777 » Thu May 16, 2019 1:21 am

cpower wrote:
Young gun 6 wrote:More unstoppable on offense. false
About 150 times better as a defender.false
Better rebounder. false, Curry is better this year
Better shot blocker.
Better scorer. depends, in OKC they are close
Better at getting a bucket when you NEED one. false, blowing 3:1 lead in OKC
Better at scoring out of a double team. false, KD is terrible to deal with double team
Passes the eye test when watching both (isn’t as flashy but more pure scorer and actually defends).false

:lol:


To address one of these, Steph blew a 3-1 lead in the Finals with a 73-9 team. That shouldn’t be used against Durant in Curry’s favor.
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#147 » by cpower » Thu May 16, 2019 1:23 am

Vladimir777 wrote:
cpower wrote:
Young gun 6 wrote:More unstoppable on offense. false
About 150 times better as a defender.false
Better rebounder. false, Curry is better this year
Better shot blocker.
Better scorer. depends, in OKC they are close
Better at getting a bucket when you NEED one. false, blowing 3:1 lead in OKC
Better at scoring out of a double team. false, KD is terrible to deal with double team
Passes the eye test when watching both (isn’t as flashy but more pure scorer and actually defends).false

:lol:


To address one of these, Steph blew a 3-1 lead in the Finals with a 73-9 team. That shouldn’t be used against Durant in Curry’s favor.

with injuries/missing players and against the GOAT? you call that the same?
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#148 » by Vladimir777 » Thu May 16, 2019 1:25 am

cpower wrote:
Vladimir777 wrote:
cpower wrote: :lol:


To address one of these, Steph blew a 3-1 lead in the Finals with a 73-9 team. That shouldn’t be used against Durant in Curry’s favor.

with injuries/missing players and against the GOAT? you call that the same?


I never said the same. Just not what I would have used.
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#149 » by michaelm » Thu May 16, 2019 1:26 am

Vladimir777 wrote:
Peregrine01 wrote:
Vladimir777 wrote:What if other teams double Steph because it’s EASIER to shut him down than it is KD? So they’d rather shut down ONE of them rather than NONE.

Just a thought.


If it was so easy to shut him down, why would they put two guys on him instead of Durant? It’s quite obvious that teams are far more fearful when Steph has the ball than when Durant has it.


First off, I'm not saying it's EASY to shut ANYONE down here. I'm saying maybe Steph can't be shut down with one defender, but CAN be shut down with two (I think this is a fair assessment). I suspect it'd be easier to shut down a small guard than it would KD. So they throw two defenders on him to do their best to shut him down and live with the results of KD feasting.

I'm not saying it is this way or not. Just a theory. I just imagine it would be easier to shut down a small guy like Curry than KD, so they gameplan to do so.

I tend to agree to an extent, although it might actually not be the best tactic when he is such a good and willing passer, particularly given he can pass to Kevin Durant.

The LeBron thing I also agree with, he could and has shut down Curry, particularly when able to operate as a free safety with Harrison Barnes incapable of making open shots; whether Curry was significantly hobbled is another argument. Pretty much no-one can shut down Durant one on one, and even double teamed he can still get off a reasonable shot. At OKC I think the problems were mainly other than it being possible to shut him down.
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#150 » by GeorgeMarcus » Thu May 16, 2019 2:03 am

WarriorGM wrote:
Da ThRONe wrote:It's simple both guys are A+ on offense Durant is a A- on defense while Curry is a C+


KD is an A+ on 1-on-1 offense but a B on 5-on-5 offense.
Steph is an A on 1-on-1 offense and an A+ on 5-on-5 offense.


Important distinction that most people don’t know how to make
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#151 » by Michael Lucky » Thu May 16, 2019 2:16 am

It's simple to me. Whichever player influences the outcome the most (wins and losses) is the better player. So yes Curry is the better player.
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#152 » by Benedict_Boozer » Thu May 16, 2019 3:04 am

Curry scares me more. He completely changes the game.


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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#153 » by TaylorTRoom » Thu May 16, 2019 3:16 am

Admiral-Kizaru wrote:
RoyceDa59 wrote:I'd prefer to build around Durant. Curry is a terrible defender and requires a specific build of team to succeed. I think you can more effectively build around Durant.


So is that the reason that Steph has succeeded at all levels no matter the level of players that are around him? Is that the reason Steph has more success than Durant despite Durant having played his entire career prior to GSW with Elite Level, MVP, HOF, DPOY, Record Breaking, Stat Stuffing, Loaded Talent?

Lets make a list prior to Durant coming to the Warriors who KD has played with

1. Westbrook
2. Harden
3. Ibaka
4. Adams
5. Reggie Jackson
6. Thabo
7. Collison
8. Derek Fisher
9. Perkins
10. Caron Butler
11. Jeremy Lamb
12. Roberson
13. Waiters
14. Felton
15. Enes Kanter
16. DJ Augustin

- Westbrook is an all-time great generation talent that has won MVP and has averaged a triple-double in the past 3 seasons when looking at impact stats when KD was on the Thunder, WB was by far the more impactful player compared to WB.

- Harden is an all-time great generation talent that has won an MVP and will likely finish 2nd for the 4th time in 5 years. Known as one of the greatest isolation scorers of all time, all nba caliber player and talent.

- Ibaka one of the best shot blockers and 3&D players in the league during his Prime when he was on OKC elite shot blocker and great roll man with agility and quickness to challenge most forwards and the strength to keep up with the strongest centers. Still in the league and just contributed to the Raptors victory on Sunday with 17 clutch points.

- Adams is known as one of the best interior defenders in the league, one of the best all-around rebounders and one of the strongest players in the league. He terrorized the Warriors during the 2016 WCF and made things very difficult. Most teams would kill to have a player of that Caliber especially a big man on their team.

- Reggie Jackson is a great starting point guard in this league and was a bloody backup on the OKC thunder system/team.

- Thabo was an elite defender in the league when he was on OKC. Literally one of the best wing defenders and a good 3&D player that the OKC team decided to start over James freakin Harden.

- Roberson is quite possibly the best perimeter defender in the league. If not for a horrific injury last year would and should have won DPOY for the Thunder and played suffocating man defense on the warriors during 2016 and suffocated the heck out of Kawhi during that 2016 playoffs as well. He can't shoot but if KD is such a great player, and easier to build around, his lack of shooting shouldn't be a detriment due to his ELITE defense.

- Enes Kanter one of the best post players in the league today and when healthy puts up 20/10 in his sleep with very little effort. HIs defense is horrible but, again, if Durant is easier to build around and the better player, this shouldn't be an issue right?



I could keep going but I'd like you to present some evidence of how KD is the easier player to build around when the man won nothing apart from individual accolades on loaded teams before coming to the Warriors.


This is awesome. Westbrook is an all star. So is Harden (although not while at OKC). The next best talent, Ibaka, has never been an all star. The only other on the list that was ever an all star and he did play 22 games with KD in 2014. Adams is good. Fisher was washed, but he didn’t play the point like he was (Please Use More Appropriate Word). Perkins was washed, and he did play like he was (Please Use More Appropriate Word). Sefalosha and Jackson are journeymen.

I'm sorry, but when rookie Reggie Jackson is your number five best teammate over a nine year span, you're making an argument that the roster was weak, not strong. In that light, KD was doing great dragging that group regularly to WCF and even the Finals.

Counter example. everybody agrees Dirk did great in 2011. that team had ex MVP Kidd (old, granted). It also had the following guys who had made all star teams- Caron Butler, Tyson Chandler, Shawn Marion. It also had Jason Terry, a sixth man of the year.

Let’s play your game with Blake Griffin. He played with Chris Paul, Deandre Jordan, Paul Pierce, Andre Drummond and Grant Hill. That’s not counting Patrick Beverley, Lou Williams, and ... Reggie Jackson (comes in a lot lower than five on this list). Is he a failure for not getting past the second round?

Or is your list a poor example for making points against Durant? I mean, come on - Andre Roberson as DPOY? Do you live in OKC? Get real. But I forgot, “KD got to play with Thabo Sefalosha! Whoa!”
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#154 » by Johnny Firpo » Thu May 16, 2019 3:17 am

Curry has been better in the last couple of years, people just overreact to smaller sample sizes, especially if they happen to be the finals. Look up any advanced stats, and you'll see Curry being up in most of them. I said it numerous times, we likely still don't understand the effect of Curry fully, because of his game breaking skill.
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#155 » by og15 » Thu May 16, 2019 3:19 am

Is he? They have different skill sets and different strengths / weaknesses

Admiral-Kizaru wrote:
OfficialRef wrote:
Admiral-Kizaru wrote:

???? :-? Wheres your proof bud?

pretty much every playoff series bud

vs cavs 17, 18
vs rockets 18,19
vs clippers this year

shouldn't you know this "warrior fan"


JFC :lol: :lol: 17,18 Cavs Elite Defense :lol:
Rockets Last Year were on the verge of beating the Warriors because KD kept Iso chucking. Crucial Game 6 and 7 It was Steph who led the charge for those games hitting clutch shots after Clutch shots. This year, KD shot in the low-mid 50% Ts against the Rockets and his Iso killed any ball movement and kept Klay and Steph off Rhythm.

The Clippers series, KD getting single coverage while Steph is trapped and doubled on every play even offball much like they do to him every single series.

My god again..... 17 and 18 Cavs "Elite" Defense :lol: :lol:
Image

Durant’s TS% vs Rockets in the playoffs last season was 59.6% and this season it was 58.9%, not sure if you looked at the correct player
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#156 » by og15 » Thu May 16, 2019 4:42 am

Triples333 wrote:
Peregrine01 wrote:GSW with Curry and without Durant is now 31-4. That’s basically the 73 win season.

Curry is better at KD at the only thing that matters in the end: contributing to his team winning.

Wow interesting, it actually is. Both round to 89% win percentages, with 4 of those 31-4 being playoff games (all wins).

Regular season and playoffs do differ though. I have no doubt the Warriors could win just as many, even more RS games if they didn’t add Durant, but they wouldn’t have walked through the playoffs like they did in 16-17, and they would have had more than only two real challenges in the playoffs, both by the same team in the last 3 seasons.

Let’s look at regular season Ortg vs playoff series Ortg and then also Curry and Durant’s playoff On/Off Ortg since 14-15 (Durant 16-17). Using Bball-Ref numbers, not NBA.com.


14-15
Regular Season: 111.6
Playoffs: 108.7
Vs NOP: 116.8
Vs MEM: 107.0
Vs HOU: 110.7
Vs CLE: 107.3

On Court: 107.8
Off Court: 110.1

15-16
Regular Season: 114.5
Playoffs: 110.5
Vs HOU: 112.6
Vs POR: 117.3
Vs OKC: 107.8
Vs CLE: 109.1

On Court: 111.7
Off Court: 109.4

You can see that before Durant, the massive on/off difference from the regular season shrunk when it came to the post-season.

16-17
Regular Season: 115.6
Playoffs: 119.0
Vs POR: 117.1
Vs UTA: 116.1
Vs SAS: 122.2
Vs CLE: 121.3

Curry On Court: 126.0
Curry Off Court: 99.8

Durant On Court: 125.1
Durant Off Court: 108.8

17-18
Regular Season: 113.6
Playoffs: 113.9
Vs SAS: 113.7
Vs NOP: 108.8
Vs HOU: 114.5
Vs CLE: 124.6

Curry On Court: 116.3
Curry Off Court: 111.1

Durant On Court: 116.5
Durant Off Court: 103.3

18-19
Regular Season: 117.7
Vs LAC: 121.9
Vs HOU: 115.7

Curry On Court: 120.4
Curry Off Court: 112.6

Durant On Court: 118.6
Durant Off Court: 118.5

Now we can debate the esthetics of the offense, but results are what matters in the end and their results with Durant are much better because his presence plugs other holes and makes up for the deficiencies the team has. I definitely agree that Curry is more impactful in the running of the offense, Durant isn’t a PG or a “PG type”, therefore he would need another player to be that on the team. Curry was containable in the post-season though, vs Memphis (55.9 TS% / 106 Ortg), vs Cleveland (58.5 TS% / 104 Ortg), vs Cleveland second time (58.5 TS% / 102 Ortg). A good defense could contain him either by lowering his percentages and/or making him more turnover prone and less efficient on offense. After adding Durant, the only team to have the Warriors offense not producing great overall was New Orleans and you can really attribute the drop to Klay’s shooting struggles on high volume in the series. Outside of that, they matched or surpassed their regular season Ortg in every other series except for vs Houston this season.

I don’t think in order to credit Curry’s impact, we should minimize Durant’s impact on the team. Curry is the engine that the system flows around, Durant can’t take that role as it’s not his skill set, but Durant plugs up the holes when the system is contained or slowed down which is much more likely to happen in the post-season.

With all that, whatever one believes, I don’t think Portland is a good barometer to use to say “see, this guy is “better”, etc”. The Warriors without Durant can feast on mediocre and certainly on below average defensive teams. In fact, you can even suggest that they can do better against those teams without him on offense if you want. Against better defensive teams though, that’s when his impact shines more.

Curry is better than Durant in the Warriors system. Separate from each other though, Durant has never played with an ideal (not perfectly ideal, but ideal enough) system and fit of players around him. Westbrook worked, but if Durant played with a great second option and then a nice do it all, efficient PG who ran the offense, it would be interesting to see what could come of that. Something like just throwing names out, if he had Conley and Beal at the 1/2 and a solid defensive 4 and a nice 6th man caliber do it all guy off the bench. With the workable enough fit he had in OKC, when he or Westbrook weren’t out injured, the Thunder went to the finals, lost in the WCF to San Antonio who ended up winning it all and then the Warriors after going up 3-1.
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#157 » by Chris_SoCal » Thu May 16, 2019 5:17 am

Guys try an experiment for me please. Watch tape of Golden state when Curry and KD are both healthy and playing well. Spend time watching just Curry regardless of what the team is doing and regardless of if he even has the ball in hands. Just watch him every time down. Make note of what happens to the defense when he goes into motion. Actually spend time and watch it is a thing of beauty. They invented a term for what happens... it is called gravity.

Now spend an equal amount of time watching KD. With and without the ball. IMO he is exciting with the ball but off ball not so much.

You could argue that KD is a better on ball offensive player. HOWEVER Curry is ATLEAST 10X the off ball player KID is. Even high usage players spend most of the game off ball so... YOU do the math.
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#158 » by Chris_SoCal » Thu May 16, 2019 5:23 am

Assists are a very questionable stat. You just happened to make the pass before a guy made a shot. There is too many variables to use it to judge a player with. Every time someone gets a wide open shot because they are trapping Curry with 2 or 3 guys on the opposite side of the court... Curry should get an assist... but he doesn't because he usually passed to Green first.
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#159 » by Chris_SoCal » Thu May 16, 2019 5:32 am

They say Curry is a system player... I agree, they say without the system curry is nothing, I say Curry IS the system. They say Curry has to much help, but then again it is Curry's fault. All the best players in the game actually want to play with him. Is that his fault?

Ironically his greatest attribute is also what leads him to him being so disrespectfully underrated.... He is quite possibly the most selfless superstar we have ever seen. After all it is what makes the system work. Done.
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#160 » by dred926 » Thu May 16, 2019 5:41 am

Curry.. Durant is a cupcake... until durant wins a title without Curry then we have yet to see it... Durant made team unbeatable for sure but Durant choked out with westbrook on that 3-1 lead. If he is so good why didnt he killed harrison barnes/IGGY? to win that game 7... as good as durant is offensively .. curry is on another level if he is on as well.

You dont hear kids shooting long bombs because of durant ... People forget that the 3 ball is in play because of the splash brothers... KD and the rest just followed

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