Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand?

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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#181 » by michaelm » Fri May 17, 2019 5:19 am

freethedevil wrote:
michaelm wrote:
dred926 wrote:Curry.. Durant is a cupcake... until durant wins a title without Curry then we have yet to see it... Durant made team unbeatable for sure but Durant choked out with westbrook on that 3-1 lead. If he is so good why didnt he killed harrison barnes/IGGY? to win that game 7... as good as durant is offensively .. curry is on another level if he is on as well.

You dont hear kids shooting long bombs because of durant ... People forget that the 3 ball is in play because of the splash brothers... KD and the rest just followed

OKC had a poor system and bad coaching, and a poorly constructed roster once Harden was gone with insufficient other shooters. It worked alright while Westbrook and Durant were fresh, but broke down at the end of play-off games and series when they were tired, particularly Westbrook who relied so much on his athleticism. I agree with OG’s post, what Durant needs is a selfless quality playmaker and not much else.

Talk about spoiled lol. westbrook was a great playmaker at his peak. No, what kd needed was arguably the best playmeker+arguably the best scorer in the league. If Durant was anywhere near the shooter curry was, then that "lack of shooting" wouldn't have been sas much of a problem would it? Reality is Curry would have been better for okc or gsw than durant was.

I said selfless playmaker. Westbrook is a great passer and has fine playmaking ability.

He is not a great shooter however. His problem imo was not really selfishness, but judgement at the end of games when he was tired, the guy hasn’t ever seen a shot he hasn’t liked, and imo was prone to taking too many bad ones at the end of games when his other avenues of scoring also dropped off significantly against play-off defences from fatigue.
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#182 » by WarriorGM » Fri May 17, 2019 5:21 am

DaTRUTHk11 wrote:
Facts? KD led GSW 2-0 including 4-0 & 4-1 against FULLY HEALTHY Cavs in the Finals. Curry led GSW 1-1 including 4-2 Win (No Kyrie, No Love) & 4-3 loss (Against healthy team). After that loss in the finals, if GSW keeps trash Barnes (He shot about 10% in the last 3 games nearly all of them wide open). You are also completely neglecting KD's defense, which is 100x better than Barnes defense on his best day (LBJ salivated whenever that loser "tried" to guard him while KD blocked multiple shots of LBJ throughout the playoffs).

Without KD and keeping Barnes, GSW doesn't make any more finals. This was perhaps the best move in the history of game trading a god awful Barnes for the best player in KD.


Talk about semantics. The "KD led GSW" also had Curry who was just as effective as KD in the sweeps against the Cavaliers.

To say GSW wouldn't even make any more finals is based on hopes and dreams of GSW haters not on any evidence from the record.
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#183 » by kombayn » Fri May 17, 2019 7:12 am

Umm... K.D. takes over games, and it's an all around complete game on both ends of the floor. Steph can shoot, and can dish a little on the side. The Warriors are a GREAT team, after losing after a 73 win season went for one of the most lethal individual players in the game. He like LeBron, it's him and everyone else. That's what Russ never learned, he just had to accept he was 1B to Kevin be the A1.
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#184 » by kombayn » Fri May 17, 2019 7:17 am

WarriorGM wrote:
DaTRUTHk11 wrote:
Facts? KD led GSW 2-0 including 4-0 & 4-1 against FULLY HEALTHY Cavs in the Finals. Curry led GSW 1-1 including 4-2 Win (No Kyrie, No Love) & 4-3 loss (Against healthy team). After that loss in the finals, if GSW keeps trash Barnes (He shot about 10% in the last 3 games nearly all of them wide open). You are also completely neglecting KD's defense, which is 100x better than Barnes defense on his best day (LBJ salivated whenever that loser "tried" to guard him while KD blocked multiple shots of LBJ throughout the playoffs).

Without KD and keeping Barnes, GSW doesn't make any more finals. This was perhaps the best move in the history of game trading a god awful Barnes for the best player in KD.


Talk about semantics. The "KD led GSW" also had Curry who was just as effective as KD in the sweeps against the Cavaliers.

To say GSW wouldn't even make any more finals is based on hopes and dreams of GSW haters not on any evidence from the record.


Golden State had an identity, Steph was the best scorer, Klay the best defender and #2, Draymond the best distributor, Iggy the vet with the best toughness. They have an identity. K.D. just came in and was like, when the situation got tough in any game. Give me the ball. They obligated him too. I think the rest of the team may realize this partnership was good for two years of dominance but I don't think they'll shed a tear if K.D. leaves, I think Boogie would be welcomed back too.
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#185 » by The-Power » Fri May 17, 2019 9:50 am

kombayn wrote:Golden State had an identity, Steph was the best scorer, Klay the best defender and #2, Draymond the best distributor, Iggy the vet with the best toughness.

One of the worst takes I've ever read on here, wow.
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#186 » by kombayn » Fri May 17, 2019 5:31 pm

The-Power wrote:
kombayn wrote:Golden State had an identity, Steph was the best scorer, Klay the best defender and #2, Draymond the best distributor, Iggy the vet with the best toughness.

One of the worst takes I've ever read on here, wow.


Klay isn't the best defender on the Warriors without Durant? Are you kidding me? Smh
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#187 » by mademan » Fri May 17, 2019 5:32 pm

kombayn wrote:
The-Power wrote:
kombayn wrote:Golden State had an identity, Steph was the best scorer, Klay the best defender and #2, Draymond the best distributor, Iggy the vet with the best toughness.

One of the worst takes I've ever read on here, wow.


Klay isn't the best defender on the Warriors without Durant? Are you kidding me? Smh


Iggy>>>>>
Dray>>>>>>>>>

It's not even a question. Klay, is, at best, the 3rd best defender
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#188 » by Bush4Ever » Fri May 17, 2019 6:10 pm

I personally don't believe there is much question that Curry contributes more to the bottom line (i.e.-winning) than Durant does in total for the Warriors across the span of a given season (since 2017).

That doesn't automatically mean that general result is generalizable across all (hypothetical) team constructions and game situations however.

I do think there are specific teams and game situations where Durant could be reasonably argued as the better player. I might be a victim of bias to some degree, but I've come to think Durant's offensive game is more playoff-friendly than Curry's game is, for example.

It's not the majority of teams/situations IMO, but it's also not zero.
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#189 » by Iguodaladon » Fri May 17, 2019 6:44 pm

Durant is the better player, how many Finals MVP's has Steph got?
Obama to Zach Lavine: ‘I used to be able to get up like you back in the day.’
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#190 » by freethedevil » Fri May 17, 2019 9:35 pm

bronxknicksfan1 wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
DaTRUTHk11 wrote:Durant makes the big shots over lebron twice in the Finals thus winning Finals MVP. Elite Wings=best players in the NBA. KD, Kawhii, Giannis.

Curry is easily the best PG in the league but he can't guard everyone and will struggle to get his shot off when guarded by elite wing defenders that are much taller than him. No one can block KD with his wingspan and height. Don't overthink this guys. Curry lost without him with a 73-9 team with Kyrie shutting him down. KD gets that shot off clean every time.

Imagine thinking 2 shots ake you a better player lol.

KD only gets his shot off clean because curry's drawing the defence away. KD's ts dropped by 10% vs the rockets in 2019 when curry was off the court. There remains no argument based in fact for kd over curry.


You mean in the same series that Steph disappeared in until Game 5?

Fam, KD's efficiency was way higher with steph on the court VS the rockets isn't a "take", it's fact. That curry "dissapeared" while improving kd's effiency by 10 points is a "take", a terrible one at that.
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#191 » by freethedevil » Fri May 17, 2019 9:36 pm

Bush4Ever wrote:
That doesn't automatically mean that general result is generalizable across all (hypothetical) team constructions and game situations however.


Curry is +12 with the warriors bench this playoff.Curry would do far better than durant on a bad team. This team where kd's occasional highlight reel defence+iso scoring is more valuable than curry's league best scoring and league best faciliatation +solid d would be so bizarely constructed it might as well not exist.
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#192 » by Vladimir777 » Fri May 17, 2019 9:36 pm

kombayn wrote:
The-Power wrote:
kombayn wrote:Golden State had an identity, Steph was the best scorer, Klay the best defender and #2, Draymond the best distributor, Iggy the vet with the best toughness.

One of the worst takes I've ever read on here, wow.


Klay isn't the best defender on the Warriors without Durant? Are you kidding me? Smh


Yeah, Klay is a better defender than the recent Defensive Player of the Year Draymond Green....

“Smh.”
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#193 » by tyguy » Fri May 17, 2019 10:05 pm

benhillboy wrote:
twolves97 wrote:It astounds me how many smart people on here whose opinion I respect have Durant as the better player. Steph is so clearly the better player. Everything except the box score (and even the box score sometimes) screams steph is the better player. I think it is very telling who opposing defenses want with the ball.

Absolutely mind boggling. I’m the biggest Steph fan there is and I might not watch when KD comes back. Illustrations of how lazy and destructive KD’s floor movement and IQ is:



The one on the wing where he actually escorted another defender to Steph lol. Steph and Klay probably haven’t made a defensive read that dumb since their rookie seasons. The team hates him, it’s so obvious. I just wished they wouldn’t patronize him, Draymond had it right all along.

Secret weapon to “neutralize” LeBron, cool. Mission accomplished, services are no longer needed. Kerr knew LeBron has never been motivated to shut down another elite wing scorer without the critical supervision of Riley and Spoelstra. Kawhi ate LeBron’s lunch in the Finals on both ends at half the player he is now. If you think KD is gonna “get his” (score 30 efficiently) versus far superior defenders to LeBron in Giannis and Kawhi think again. So weak, easy ball denial, park him in the corner, no screening, he’s done. What are you gonna get as far as hustle game, offensive boards, gritty play? Nothing. Sulking and poor shots out of isos and a turnover for every assist.

They’re an old lumbering pickup truck with a V8 with KD. A brand new hand built V12 coupe without.
You were going well until the needless LeBron bashing that wasn't even accurate. LeBron was dominant in both series against San Antonio and was far better than Kawhi (who was also very good in his role).
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#194 » by bronxknicksfan1 » Fri May 17, 2019 10:41 pm

freethedevil wrote:
bronxknicksfan1 wrote:
freethedevil wrote:Imagine thinking 2 shots ake you a better player lol.

KD only gets his shot off clean because curry's drawing the defence away. KD's ts dropped by 10% vs the rockets in 2019 when curry was off the court. There remains no argument based in fact for kd over curry.


You mean in the same series that Steph disappeared in until Game 5?

Fam, KD's efficiency was way higher with steph on the court VS the rockets isn't a "take", it's fact. That curry "dissapeared" while improving kd's effiency by 10 points is a "take", a terrible one at that.


So Curry shooting under 40% from the field and under 30% from 3 in the Houston series before Durant went out is a take? Lol.

Again, I like Curry, but as great as he is, he also benefits from KD being on the team. They don't make it out of that Houston series if KD wasn't scoring at the clip that he was as well as playing well over 40 mins in every game expect the one he got injured in.
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#195 » by freethedevil » Fri May 17, 2019 10:49 pm

bronxknicksfan1 wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
bronxknicksfan1 wrote:
You mean in the same series that Steph disappeared in until Game 5?

Fam, KD's efficiency was way higher with steph on the court VS the rockets isn't a "take", it's fact. That curry "dissapeared" while improving kd's effiency by 10 points is a "take", a terrible one at that.


So Curry shooting under 40% from the field and under 30% from 3 in the Houston series before Durant went out is a take? Lol.
.

No, it's a fact, but that fact doesn't change the fact i posted, that even when curry is shooting horribly with a dislocated finger, he's making kd vastly more effecient by drawing defensive coverage. KD's value is almost exclusively his scoring, take away Curry's scoring and he's still a nightmare to defend against.

This isn't a hard concept to grasp.
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#196 » by bronxknicksfan1 » Fri May 17, 2019 11:02 pm

freethedevil wrote:
bronxknicksfan1 wrote:
freethedevil wrote:Fam, KD's efficiency was way higher with steph on the court VS the rockets isn't a "take", it's fact. That curry "dissapeared" while improving kd's effiency by 10 points is a "take", a terrible one at that.


So Curry shooting under 40% from the field and under 30% from 3 in the Houston series before Durant went out is a take? Lol.
.

No, it's a fact, but that fact doesn't change the fact i posted, that even when curry is shooting horribly with a dislocated finger, he's making kd vastly more effecient by drawing defensive coverage. KD's value is almost exclusively his scoring, take away Curry's scoring and he's still a nightmare to defend against.

This isn't a hard concept to grasp.


And it's a fact that Curry was getting shutdown for a majority of that series. KD's scoring is what elevated them to even have a chance most of those games. How many times did Curry have to get taken out because he was in foul trouble? How many times did the defense force him to switch when he was defending because they knew they could take advantage of him? He was getting bullied.

And of course he's going to get attention from defense, he's the greatest shooter of all time. He's always going to be a threat. But when he gets cold (which was a majority of the series), KD picked up the slack. If KD wasn't there to do that, Houston would be in the WCF.
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#197 » by freethedevil » Fri May 17, 2019 11:11 pm

bronxknicksfan1 wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
bronxknicksfan1 wrote:
So Curry shooting under 40% from the field and under 30% from 3 in the Houston series before Durant went out is a take? Lol.
.

No, it's a fact, but that fact doesn't change the fact i posted, that even when curry is shooting horribly with a dislocated finger, he's making kd vastly more effecient by drawing defensive coverage. KD's value is almost exclusively his scoring, take away Curry's scoring and he's still a nightmare to defend against.

This isn't a hard concept to grasp.


And it's a fact that Curry was getting shutdown for a majority of that series. KD's scoring is what elevated them to even have a chance most of those games.


And of course he's going to get attention from defense, he's the greatest shooter of all time. He's always going to be a threat.[/quote]
Yes, one of many reasons why curry is better than kd. Curry doesn't need to score to skyrocket his teammates efficiency.
But when he gets cold (which was a majority of the series), KD picked up the slack. If KD wasn't there to do that, Houston would be in the WCF.

Lool? Is there a reason we're assuming the rockets wouldn't have beat the kd led warriors? Last i recall, the warriors had blown a 2 game lead and then went ahead and blew a 20 point lead with kd on the court. That KD's first 4 games were important for the warriors isn't proof of KD's greatness, it's proof of the warriors **** bench. Using the shallowness of a team to argue player b is > player a because the team would have lost without player b is **** hilarious. Especially when we consider the team could have lost with player b playing all the games
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#198 » by og15 » Sat May 18, 2019 3:58 am

freethedevil wrote:
og15 wrote:
Chris_SoCal wrote:

The idea that an elite scorer would be better in a vacuum than an elite scorer and playmaker shows is hilarious.

Well sure, but offense is not the only way that players can impact the game. Defense is also a large factor. Warriors have had a team that perfectly compliments Curry on defense. The combination of players they have to accomplish that can't just be easily pieced together around the league.

I remember someone saying that Curry would do better with the Westbrook-less Thunder than KD did, but one is basing that off of Curry playing with guys like Thompson and Green in Kerr's system and assuming he can accomplish as good a defence in Durant's place. If we go to 13-14 in Jackson's system, even though Curry wasn't as productive then, we have no other sample in a less fluid system. The Warriors second most played lineup Curry/Thompson/Barnes/Lee/Bogut had a 94.9 Ortg in 316 minutes. In 14-15 we had lineups like Curry, Thompson, Iggy, Barnes, Green (102 mins, 103.6 Ortg), Curry, Thompson, Barnes, Green, Ezeli (99 mins, 98 Ortg), Curry, Barbosa, Iguodala, Green, Speights (52 mins, 89.9 Ortg). If we jump to 15-16, their starting lineup which included Barnes and Bogut played 552 minutes and had a good 108.2 Ortg, but nothing amazing, there were 12 lineups with 200+ minutes that were better on offense, including two OKC lineups (just for the Durant reference). The point here is simply that you can't trot out any just decent lineup with Curry and get great offense just because of his gravity, which is what it seems like some want to suggest, especially not just in any random offensive system either.

Currently GS can attack and still score efficiently against traps and hard hedges on Curry because Draymond can pick apart 4v3, Klay will feast on open shots, and Iguodala can be a third playmaker and attack the rotating defense.

Now, if Klay is Sefolosha, well now my rotations are easier because I'm playing off him, and will gladly give him the shot and close out late. That also closes some passing lanes if I am a step or two away and can recover inside quicker. If Green is Ibaka, well I don't fear his ball handling, passing or vision to attack 4v3 so my hard hedges or traps to get the ball out of Curry's hands are far more effective. I can even have a defender stunt towards Ibaka to disuaade him from an open shot every once in a while, then rotate back accordingly. Curry can still get his, but now my offense when Curry is not scoring is not nearly as effective. When I get to the playoffs against a very good defense, things then become much harder.

GS has been great because of their combination of offense and defense, even when they aren't playing the best defense through the season, their capability on that side is great.

Curry is great by himself, but the personnel on the Warriors also allow for his and their additional greatness, and these are personell that teams can't just put together, great teams are generally unique situations in addition to their best pieces. Curry is playing with another guy who is one of the greatest shooters of all time and at 6'7 can guard PG's as well as SG and SF, relieving Curry on defense. Then there's a guy who is one of the best and more versatile defenders the league has seen and additionally a versatile offensive talent and especially a solid passer. Then they have a great, though ageing 4th guy who can defend multiple positions

If you're looking for an example of an ideal type team built around Durant with that level of talent, he also needs complimentary shooting. For him, get him a playmaking PG that can shoot, his DPOY level guy, a 6th man of the year type and a solid defensive C. If you put together something like the SSOL Suns, but swap Amare with Durant, Nash with Billups and then give them a defensive C. Durant is your Curry, Billups is your Klay, Marion is you Green, Diaw is your Iguodala and NYK/Dallas Chandler is your GS version of Bogut.

Chauncey Billups
Raja Bell
Kevin Durant
Shawn Marion
Tyson Chandler (NYK/Dallas version)
6th man: Boris Diaw

If you want to give them GS level shooting:

Chauncey Billups
Ray Allen
Kevin Durant
Boris Diaw
Tyson Chandler (NYK/Dallas version)
6th man: Brent Barry

Now if I build that kind of lineup around Durant, those are 60+ win teams in their best seasons and top contenders.
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#199 » by freethedevil » Sat May 18, 2019 4:13 am

og15 wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
og15 wrote:

The idea that an elite scorer would be better in a vacuum than an elite scorer and playmaker shows is hilarious.

Well sure, but offense is not the only way that players can impact the game. Defense is also a large factor..

KD is nowhere near good enough to be the #1 defensive option of a good defence. Even in his best year his defenive impact was less than half of green's per impact metrics. The very best defenders can have an impact similar to an offenisve superstar, but once you go down the list their value plummets. KD at his peak was a very good complimetary piece defneisvely, but you cannot build a defence around him. And that's peak kd. This version is basically a non factor.

Also Curry is +12 with the warriors bench unit. I think you're better off taking the best offensive engine in thegame and getting a top defender than taking an iso scorer with moderate defensive impact and if you're a bad team you'll do better with someone who supercharges role players than someone who can compliment an elite defensive anchor.
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Re: Durant better than Curry?!?! Make me understand? 

Post#200 » by og15 » Sat May 18, 2019 11:48 pm

freethedevil wrote:
og15 wrote:
freethedevil wrote:The idea that an elite scorer would be better in a vacuum than an elite scorer and playmaker shows is hilarious.

Well sure, but offense is not the only way that players can impact the game. Defense is also a large factor..

KD is nowhere near good enough to be the #1 defensive option of a good defence. Even in his best year his defenive impact was less than half of green's per impact metrics. The very best defenders can have an impact similar to an offenisve superstar, but once you go down the list their value plummets. KD at his peak was a very good complimetary piece defneisvely, but you cannot build a defence around him. And that's peak kd. This version is basically a non factor.

Also Curry is +12 with the warriors bench unit. I think you're better off taking the best offensive engine in thegame and getting a top defender than taking an iso scorer with moderate defensive impact and if you're a bad team you'll do better with someone who supercharges role players than someone who can compliment an elite defensive anchor.

You might be diverging a bit here moving to whether a guy can anchor a defense. Why would he need to be your defensive anchor and have DPOY level impact? We're comparing two players overall impact on winning, KD doesn't need to be your best defensive player, but he can be your second, and the defensive help you need around him is less than the defensive help you need around Curry. Also this version? KD is 30, why are you speaking like he's post prime or something.

Curry is +12 what, pts, NetRtg, etc, and with what bench unit? Who are the players in the lineup, how many minutes? I don't deny he would be positive with a bench unit, why wouldn't he, but give some context. Fairly well post prime CP3 had the Rockets with a 112.2 Ortg and +14 NetRtg with Harden off the court last season over almost 900 minutes. This season where he looked even older and the roster wasn't as good, still 107.3 Ortg, and +9.7 NetRtg in a little over 720 minutes without Harden. So yea, it happens. Curry with a bench or hybrid bench unit playing against other bench / hybrid bench units and playing well is not abnormal.

If those units are starting lineups, it might be different depending on the group. Like I cited, we already have good samples that say it's not just some automatic stick Curry with any players and his gravity and impact will just give you top or very good offense, and Curry certainly isn't anchoring the defense of any units either. He is good enough where he can elevate most lineups, no denying that, and the point here isn't even that Durant is better, it's that suggesting there's no argument is primarily based on unequal comparisons. The other point is that Curry needs great help too, and GS was able to have just the right guys to cover his deficiencies and compliment his strengths, and the reality is that in the NBA, a good amount of that can be luck in addition to good planning and decision making.

We didn't see that for Durant until GS, but that team was already built, and yes, many, many players never get the as close to ideal as possible roster built around them, it's just the reality of the league and life.

With the plethora of good guards in the league though, it is not going to be easier to find a shooting/playmaking guard than it is to find a defensive anchor, let alone a super versatile defensive anchor like Green. Let's just assume Green never became what he is or GS never drafted him. GS is still good, but they don't reach the same level without him; so where do they find the Draymond Green type player? Bogut would be the defensive anchor, but he's injury prone, he's not offensively impactful, and he's not versatile defensively.

There are something like 15+ guards who can give you a combination of scoring/shooting and playmaking to compliment a guy like KD, while with defensive anchors you have few, then if you want a versatile defensive guy like a Green, you're not talking about more than 5 players in the league. Most teams have to build their defense around multiple good defensive guys.

It still stands that Curry got his ideal supporting teammates, even coach, and were looking at him not just on his individual abilities but also through the lens of that reality, and that happens, I'm not discounting that. BUT, when we start to make comparisons, we do after to acknowledge thses realitiesm. Durant didn't get either his ideal cast or coach (pre-GS) and even if you can argue that in an iso style, young Durant had the one season in 11-12 with ideal-ish teammates for that, the group was disbanded quickly, basically as the other guys were developing.

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