Did Philly Abandon the Process too Early?

Moderators: Yuri Vaultin, Prez, zimpy27, bwgood77, BombsquadSammy, PockyCandy, Dirk, Domejandro

User avatar
mowcrowbar
General Manager
Posts: 7,946
And1: 2,809
Joined: Jul 22, 2008
Location: Brick house

Re: Did Philly Abandon the Process too Early? 

Post#61 » by mowcrowbar » Thu May 16, 2019 8:59 am

RoyceDa59 wrote:No.

They were one shot away from competing for the Eastern Championship. All their best players are in their 20's - they're poised to be one of the elite teams in the East next year.


First of all, they weren't one shot away from the ECF, they were tied prior to that game winner. Secondly, its easy to be one of the tops in the east, but I dont see this cast of players winning a championship until Simmons learns to shoot or if Embiid becomes at least a 40% 3 point shooter to balance Simmons' 0% 3 point shooting.
The_Hater
RealGM
Posts: 66,532
And1: 19,313
Joined: May 23, 2001
     

Re: Did Philly Abandon the Process too Early? 

Post#62 » by The_Hater » Thu May 16, 2019 11:34 am

Philly didn’t abandon the process, they drafted 2 excellent young players and jumped from 28 to 52 wins during the 2017-18 season. The process itself told them that the rebuilding phase was over.
I don't want to say we're dysfunctional. But we need to be more functional.
TheProfessor
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,447
And1: 400
Joined: May 01, 2010

Re: Did Philly Abandon the Process too Early? 

Post#63 » by TheProfessor » Thu May 16, 2019 1:29 pm

Yep definitely jumped the gun with the Harris trade, that MIA pick is going to be so valuable. Getting a guy like Butler was defendable because 1. Arguably top 10-15 player 2. Didn't actually give up much for him or anything to be honest. Harris on the underhand didn't make sense, because he's a free agent you don't need and gave up future valuable assets, just to have the pleasure of maxing him out. Also, guess what he **** the bed in the playoffs, so it's even like PHI got present value for him, If I was a PHI fan I'd be pissed.
HotelVitale
General Manager
Posts: 7,560
And1: 3,545
Joined: Sep 14, 2007
Location: West Philly, PA

Re: Did Philly Abandon the Process too Early? 

Post#64 » by HotelVitale » Thu May 16, 2019 1:45 pm

Both of these were bad moves that I vocally opposed at the time but they're not as big a deal as either of you think:
dc wrote:Giving up that pick to move up for Fultz is going to hurt.

It should have hurt but in the end it's a #14 pick in a meh draft, not a very good chance it moves the needle. Silver lining is that the move also ultimately cleared about $15m in cap space this year and more going forward (between rookie scale for a #1 pick and another lotto pick).

MikeM wrote:The Harris trade was a complete disaster. And I consider that the moment they abandoned the Process. So yes.

Not sure what the 'complete disaster' is there--they lost the trade but got the best asset and a sure thing out of it. The picks almost definitely won't produce someone better than Harris, and even in a trade they're unlikely to match his talent+fit. They also lose cap space with having to re-sign Harris but they'll be well over the cap for years to come after this one so it's not a backbreaker. I'd definitely prefer having the assets and cap space to be able to take another swing at the fences but people thinking this was a 'disaster' are probably a little too in love with potential and what could be.
Warriorfan
RealGM
Posts: 10,898
And1: 1,279
Joined: Jun 24, 2001
         

Re: Did Philly Abandon the Process too Early? 

Post#65 » by Warriorfan » Thu May 16, 2019 1:48 pm

They missed on Okafor, Noel and Futz. Plus others
jbent87
Starter
Posts: 2,170
And1: 926
Joined: Jul 02, 2015
       

Re: Did Philly Abandon the Process too Early? 

Post#66 » by jbent87 » Thu May 16, 2019 2:00 pm

dc wrote:Giving up that pick to move up for Fultz is going to hurt.


the pick came in at 14 overall. When Boston takes another James Young there in this draft, you're gonna look back later and realize that pick wasn't helping/hurting anything already established.
User avatar
Tron Carter
RealGM
Posts: 11,519
And1: 9,538
Joined: Jul 20, 2012
Location: NBA Purgatory

Re: Did Philly Abandon the Process too Early? 

Post#67 » by Tron Carter » Thu May 16, 2019 2:15 pm

MikeM wrote:The Harris trade was a complete disaster. And I consider that the moment they abandoned the Process. So yes.


can’t be overstated. and paying harris near max money is a big mistake the clips were never resigning him and got better after he left.
Image
HotelVitale
General Manager
Posts: 7,560
And1: 3,545
Joined: Sep 14, 2007
Location: West Philly, PA

Re: Did Philly Abandon the Process too Early? 

Post#68 » by HotelVitale » Thu May 16, 2019 2:16 pm

TheProfessor wrote:Yep definitely jumped the gun with the Harris trade, that MIA pick is going to be so valuable. Harris on the underhand didn't make sense, because he's a free agent you don't need and gave up future valuable assets, just to have the pleasure of maxing him out. Also, guess what he **** the bed in the playoffs, so it's even like PHI got present value for him, If I was a PHI fan I'd be pissed.

Tron Carter wrote:can’t be overstated. and paying harris near max money is a big mistake the clips were never resigning him and got better after he left.


Peanut gallery posts that don't take into account context. Here's how the Sixers FO had to think about this:
A) There's zero reason to project that Harris would have signed with the Sixers--a bunch of other teams have cap space and are likely to offer him max money, and even with the Sixers being a pretty good team, I would put it at less than a 1 in 3 chance they signed him this summer.
B) not sure where you got that Harris was garbage in the playoffs--he put up 16/9/4, played defense, shot 3s pretty well (35% on 5+ attempts per game), didn't turn the ball over, etc. He wasn't a huge difference maker but he clocked in as a good starter, even when his efficiency took a hit against TOR's defense. (It's not like Landry Shamet was going to hang 16/9/4 on Toronto.)
C) That MIA pick might be valuable or it might be almost nothing--we've seen a lot of much better picks than that turn into nothing much over the past couple years
D) The Clippers played well without Harris because they had other offensive stars and shooters to pick up the slack--that's why they didn't need him. The Sixers don't have anyone who can create some and spot shoot at a high level, that's why they targeted him. Different situations.

Overall the trade was about making sure the Sixers had something they could go to war with this year and the next couple of years. I think they overpaid and would rather have kept options open, but the logic was that this allows the Sixers to commit to a core rather than waiting and praying that the perfect scenario comes along. That's pretty strategically sound, even if I'd prefer other strategies.
User avatar
Tron Carter
RealGM
Posts: 11,519
And1: 9,538
Joined: Jul 20, 2012
Location: NBA Purgatory

Re: Did Philly Abandon the Process too Early? 

Post#69 » by Tron Carter » Thu May 16, 2019 2:17 pm

shamet would’ve been such a great piece to slide into that reddick role. need those pieces when you eventually max simmons, butler.
Image
User avatar
Tron Carter
RealGM
Posts: 11,519
And1: 9,538
Joined: Jul 20, 2012
Location: NBA Purgatory

Re: Did Philly Abandon the Process too Early? 

Post#70 » by Tron Carter » Thu May 16, 2019 2:29 pm

HotelVitale wrote:
TheProfessor wrote:Yep definitely jumped the gun with the Harris trade, that MIA pick is going to be so valuable. Harris on the underhand didn't make sense, because he's a free agent you don't need and gave up future valuable assets, just to have the pleasure of maxing him out. Also, guess what he **** the bed in the playoffs, so it's even like PHI got present value for him, If I was a PHI fan I'd be pissed.

Tron Carter wrote:can’t be overstated. and paying harris near max money is a big mistake the clips were never resigning him and got better after he left.


Peanut gallery posts that don't take into account context. Here's how the Sixers FO had to think about this:
A) There's zero reason to project that Harris would have signed with the Sixers--a bunch of other teams have cap space and are likely to offer him max money, and even with the Sixers being a pretty good team, I would put it at less than a 1 in 3 chance they signed him this summer.
B) not sure where you got that Harris was garbage in the playoffs--he put up 16/9/4, played defense, shot 3s pretty well (35% on 5+ attempts per game), didn't turn the ball over, etc. He wasn't a huge difference maker but he clocked in as a good starter, even when his efficiency took a hit against TOR's defense. (It's not like Landry Shamet was going to hang 16/9/4 on Toronto.)
C) That MIA pick might be valuable or it might be almost nothing--we've seen a lot of much better picks than that turn into nothing much over the past couple years
D) The Clippers played well without Harris because they had other offensive stars and shooters to pick up the slack--that's why they didn't need him. The Sixers don't have anyone who can create some and spot shoot at a high level, that's why they targeted him. Different situations.

Overall the trade was about making sure the Sixers had something they could go to war with this year and the next couple of years. I think they overpaid and would rather have kept options open, but the logic was that this allows the Sixers to commit to a core rather than waiting and praying that the perfect scenario comes along. That's pretty strategically sound, even if I'd prefer other strategies.


just because people don’t view harris as highly as you or the 76ers front office doesn’t mean you can dismiss our posts as group think.

I don’t think he’ll be worth the contract he’ll command. period. it has nothing to do with the situation and everything to do with the player. loved the move to get jimmy. hated the moves for the acquisition of harris. regardless of if you think the assets delt are overrated. why is that so hard for you to understand and why are you getting so defensive about opinions?

“pEaNuT gAlLeRy PoStS” you sound insecure
Image
HotelVitale
General Manager
Posts: 7,560
And1: 3,545
Joined: Sep 14, 2007
Location: West Philly, PA

Re: Did Philly Abandon the Process too Early? 

Post#71 » by HotelVitale » Thu May 16, 2019 2:36 pm

Tron Carter wrote:shamet would’ve been such a great piece to slide into that reddick role. need those pieces when you eventually max simmons, butler.

It hurts to lose him but Shamet's definitely not Redick. Redick can consistently hit 28 ft shots off a full sprint curl with a defender on his hip, and he barely needs any daylight to get one off. Shamet hits open shots well and can sometimes shoot off the dribble a little bit but seems more like a solid 8th man who can sometimes come in and put up 20ppg and have people thinking 'man this guy's got some game.' He was a 4 year guy in college and is way ahead of most rookies with skill and decision-making, but he's definitely limited.

Also a big factor in this decision is that they'll be out of cap space next offseason (extension to Simmons plus maxes for Embiid+Butler) no matter what, and they'll be paying tax for the year or two after that. There have less need to hang on to cheap role players like Shamet to preserve cap space beyond this year, and like I said before the Harris trade was about making sure they didn't blow the last chance to add a major piece this year. Like most good teams, they need to lock the core in now and start operating above the cap.
User avatar
Tron Carter
RealGM
Posts: 11,519
And1: 9,538
Joined: Jul 20, 2012
Location: NBA Purgatory

Re: Did Philly Abandon the Process too Early? 

Post#72 » by Tron Carter » Thu May 16, 2019 2:39 pm

HotelVitale wrote:
Tron Carter wrote:shamet would’ve been such a great piece to slide into that reddick role. need those pieces when you eventually max simmons, butler.

It hurts to lose him but Shamet's definitely not Redick. Redick can consistently hit 28 ft shots off a full sprint curl with a defender on his hip, and he barely needs any daylight to get one off. Shamet hits open shots well and can sometimes shoot off the dribble a little bit but seems more like a solid 8th man who can sometimes come in and put up 20ppg and have people thinking 'man this guy's got some game.' He was a 4 year guy in college and is way ahead of most rookies with skill and decision-making, but he's definitely limited.

Also a big factor in this decision is that they'll be out of cap space next offseason (extension to Simmons plus maxes for Embiid+Butler) no matter what, and they'll be paying tax for the year or two after that. There have less need to hang on to cheap role players like Shamet to preserve cap space beyond this year, and like I said before the Harris trade was about making sure they didn't blow the last chance to add a major piece this year. Like most good teams, they need to lock the core in now and start operating above the cap.


did I say he was reddick? I said he fit that role. you completely misconstrued my post again.

and I think shamet will improve. ya know like most young players. maybe he could grow into a better player on a contending young team. what a blasphemous idea.
Image
TheAlchemist
Head Coach
Posts: 6,085
And1: 5,497
Joined: Apr 06, 2010
   

Re: Did Philly Abandon the Process too Early? 

Post#73 » by TheAlchemist » Thu May 16, 2019 2:43 pm

Yes. Yes they 100% did.


But conversely , bringing up guys in a losing environment is also detrimental. Or a prolonged losing environment.

See Ben Simmons lack of development (shooting and driving game), and Embiid's non performance against big teams.

So hey theres that too.
HotelVitale
General Manager
Posts: 7,560
And1: 3,545
Joined: Sep 14, 2007
Location: West Philly, PA

Re: Did Philly Abandon the Process too Early? 

Post#74 » by HotelVitale » Thu May 16, 2019 2:45 pm

Tron Carter wrote: just because people don’t view harris as highly as you or the 76ers front office doesn’t mean you can dismiss our posts as group think. I don’t think he’ll be worth the contract he’ll command. period. it has nothing to do with the situation and everything to do with the player. loved the move to get jimmy. hated the moves for the acquisition of harris. regardless of if you think the assets delt are overrated. why is that so hard for you to understand and why are you getting so defensive about opinions? “pEaNuT gAlLeRy PoStS” you sound insecure

The peanut gallery thing was more about other guy (I added your comment in an edit) but I still don't think you're judging this based on the full context of the trade and the Sixers situation. I actually don't value Harris that much and I don't think anyone in the Sixers FO thinks he'll be 'worth' a max contract in the usual sense. That's not the question at hand though.

The Sixers have to re-sign Butler this year and also have to extend Simmons, which means that they'll be totally out of meaningful cap space for the 3+ years after this summer. So they need to get something this year with their cap space that they can count on for that time, and it's almost irrelevant if Harris will be making $20m (which might be his actual 'worth') or more like $30m--they'll be over the cap either way, that extra $ doesn't translate into any extra on-court help. The Harris move was about saying 'you know we could hold out hope that Klay Thompson signs, or even that Harris chooses us in UFA, but there's probably a less than 50% chance any of that happens and we simply cannot walk away from this summer empty handed.' So they decided to overpay some to lock in a younger, proven, high-level player for the next couple years, which may well be the only years Embiid can be reasonably healthy for. It was a risk-averse move and, like I said, I would've preferred them holding out for something better or more ideal, but the logic goes beyond 'is Harris 'worth' everything we gave'; the Clippers clearly won the trade as far as pure value goes, but from the Sixers end it's more about having certainty going forward, and the only thing to judge is whether Shamet+MIA pick could've gotten them something better in the near future (which is very possible).
Sixerscan
Senior Mod - 76ers
Senior Mod - 76ers
Posts: 28,346
And1: 10,820
Joined: Jan 25, 2005

Re: Did Philly Abandon the Process too Early? 

Post#75 » by Sixerscan » Thu May 16, 2019 2:53 pm

They had a better team this year having made those trades. Assuming they run it back and address the depth issues with their exceptions, they be even better next year and probably the year after that.

At some point it’s an open question of whether trading off those assets made the team worse. That’s the balance of any trade of future assets for present ones.
DoItALL9
Analyst
Posts: 3,068
And1: 592
Joined: Oct 08, 2016
       

Re: Did Philly Abandon the Process too Early? 

Post#76 » by DoItALL9 » Thu May 16, 2019 2:55 pm

You mean Hinkie, yes duh.

Sent from my LG-H872 using RealGM mobile app
leolozon
Starter
Posts: 2,418
And1: 2,242
Joined: Nov 08, 2009

Re: Did Philly Abandon the Process too Early? 

Post#77 » by leolozon » Thu May 16, 2019 3:05 pm

I think this will all be about Fultz busting out. If Fultz was just an average #1 pick, they wouldn't have made the Harris trade (which I personally didn't like and still don't, but which was defensible).

Embiid
Simmons
Butler
Reddick/Shamet
Fultz (with around John Wall impact)

Is of course a championship starting line-up.
TheProfessor
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,447
And1: 400
Joined: May 01, 2010

Re: Did Philly Abandon the Process too Early? 

Post#78 » by TheProfessor » Thu May 16, 2019 3:07 pm

HotelVitale wrote:
TheProfessor wrote:Yep definitely jumped the gun with the Harris trade, that MIA pick is going to be so valuable. Harris on the underhand didn't make sense, because he's a free agent you don't need and gave up future valuable assets, just to have the pleasure of maxing him out. Also, guess what he **** the bed in the playoffs, so it's even like PHI got present value for him, If I was a PHI fan I'd be pissed.

Tron Carter wrote:can’t be overstated. and paying harris near max money is a big mistake the clips were never resigning him and got better after he left.


Peanut gallery posts that don't take into account context. Here's how the Sixers FO had to think about this:
A) There's zero reason to project that Harris would have signed with the Sixers--a bunch of other teams have cap space and are likely to offer him max money, and even with the Sixers being a pretty good team, I would put it at less than a 1 in 3 chance they signed him this summer.
B) not sure where you got that Harris was garbage in the playoffs--he put up 16/9/4, played defense, shot 3s pretty well (35% on 5+ attempts per game), didn't turn the ball over, etc. He wasn't a huge difference maker but he clocked in as a good starter, even when his efficiency took a hit against TOR's defense. (It's not like Landry Shamet was going to hang 16/9/4 on Toronto.)
C) That MIA pick might be valuable or it might be almost nothing--we've seen a lot of much better picks than that turn into nothing much over the past couple years
D) The Clippers played well without Harris because they had other offensive stars and shooters to pick up the slack--that's why they didn't need him. The Sixers don't have anyone who can create some and spot shoot at a high level, that's why they targeted him. Different situations.

Overall the trade was about making sure the Sixers had something they could go to war with this year and the next couple of years. I think they overpaid and would rather have kept options open, but the logic was that this allows the Sixers to commit to a core rather than waiting and praying that the perfect scenario comes along. That's pretty strategically sound, even if I'd prefer other strategies.


Firstly, He still may or may not sign with the 76er's. However, if he does it will probably be for the MAX. As Tron Carter alluded to is awful. The only difference now is if another team offers him the max and the 76ers on offer him a max, he may accept it because he's played for them before. All for 2 picks and Shamet.

Secondly, He put up 15/9/4 on 52%TS for the playoffs. Also, the reason he was traded was to put up a fight against top of the west where he put up 14/9/4 on 47%ts against the raptors. Also his defense was soo good that they had to hide him on Gasol in the middle of game 2 because he was getting eviscerated by Kawhi/Siakam. If that's not the definition of garbage, well my standards may be a little to high.

Thirdly, The MIA pic is in 2021. The same year that silver is trying to get high schoolers into the draft. Also there aren't really any great FA's in 2020, with a little forsight you can decipher that pick looks pretty good.

Finally, the only reputable scorer is possibly Gallinari or Williams or are you refering to SGA?Beverly? Bradley? Ohh no you must mean Harrell. Yeah your right offensive juggarnauts can't possibly hold up to the likes Butler/Simmons/Embiid in terms of creation and shooting. The fact of the matter, he came from one team and the other team instantly got better, while playing worse on his team new team.

Overall, this was a bad trade and set a bad direction for the 76'ers
Dasein
Junior
Posts: 383
And1: 268
Joined: Dec 08, 2012

Re: Did Philly Abandon the Process too Early? 

Post#79 » by Dasein » Thu May 16, 2019 3:10 pm

I just don't understand why Philly had to include Shamet in the trade. The Miami pick plus salary fillers should have been enough to get it done.
HomegrownRebel wrote: I'd rather have John Wall, Bradley Beal, Marcin Gortat, Nene, and Paul Pierce than the Warriors team. And you can keep thinking Durant would come there. Very doubtful. He loves his hometown and area. Why would he want to live closer to fruitcakes?
User avatar
sixerswillrule
RealGM
Posts: 15,798
And1: 2,904
Joined: Jul 24, 2003
Location: DC Area

Re: Did Philly Abandon the Process too Early? 

Post#80 » by sixerswillrule » Thu May 16, 2019 3:11 pm

The_Hater wrote:Philly didn’t abandon the process, they drafted 2 excellent young players and jumped from 28 to 52 wins during the 2017-18 season. The process itself told them that the rebuilding phase was over.


Last summer I was hoping for 1 more year before cashing in the chips. 2019 FA was going to be the last time with cap space and I thought with 40-50M in cap space there would be a solid chance of signing a couple good or great players who would want to join Embiid and Simmons. Though yeah I know nothing is guaranteed. And then at that point, late summer 2019 or during the 2019/20 season, using Saric/Covington/Shamet/Picks in a trade to add to who we already signed with all of that cap space, or as a backup plan if we struck out with the cap space. I think it would've been worth the risk to potentially build a team that is even greater than what we have now. They decided to go the other route though and I'm still optimistic.

Return to The General Board