Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe

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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#41 » by Brandon_Roy » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:04 pm

Jaqua92 wrote:
bisme37 wrote:I like players who buy into the team concept and trust their teammates. I like when guys play the right way and make the right play. It's a basketball game not an "impress random guy on the internet" contest.
I like the guy who wins no less than 5 championship.

Kawhi is not yet on Kobe's level and he probably won't ever be. But he's still a fantastic player. I don't understand why people can't accept that

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If by level you mean legacy then yea but as player Kawhi is probably more impactful at this point
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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#42 » by An Unbiased Fan » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:06 pm

Difference is killer instinct. Kobe/MJ would have put the dagger in the Warroirs up by 6 with 3mins for a ring. Also, lol at Kobe haters. Dude closed more playoff games than almost all your fave players not names MJ.
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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#43 » by LivingLegend » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:13 pm

An Unbiased Fan wrote:Difference is killer instinct. Kobe/MJ would have put the dagger in the Warroirs up by 6 with 3mins for a ring. Also, lol at Kobe haters. Dude closed more playoff games than almost all your fave players not names MJ.


Except the fact that he was completely broke when it came to the game being on the line shooting 23% going 5/22--which is the topic being asked about Kawhi. Numbers say Kobe didnt put the dagger in much of anything the vast majority of the time.

I also think there is a fine line between having a killer instinct and being a shot forcer.
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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#44 » by JimmerAllStar » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:14 pm

Dnt hate wrote:
JimmerAllStar wrote:Jordan and Kobe would have pulled up and shot it over the double team on that last play. Jordan and Kobe have that killer instinct in them.

But when Kawhi saw that double team, he immediately passed the ball which ended up in a Lowry side of a backboard 3 pointer. No one is talking about how Kawhi folded like a crane origami because today is all about KD's injury.

If Lebron passed the ball up like Kawhi did, he would have been ripped by the media. Not sure why Kawhi got a pass for being meek.

Wtf are u talking about, don't spread fake news, u clearly did watch Jordan and Kobe play if u think they shot all the game winners and made them, lock this thread


Arrrgh. I'm not saying that MJ and Kobe made all their game winners. I'm saying that they didn't cower and give up the ball to a worse shot. Anytime MJ gave up the ball on a game winner, it was for a better shot. Kawhi, on the other hand, gave it to FVV who was 5 feet behind the 3pt line and covered by 6'7" Livingston.
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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#45 » by LKN » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:17 pm

JimmerAllStar wrote:Jordan and Kobe would have pulled up and shot it over the double team on that last play. Jordan and Kobe have that killer instinct in them.

But when Kawhi saw that double team, he immediately passed the ball which ended up in a Lowry side of a backboard 3 pointer. No one is talking about how Kawhi folded like a crane origami because today is all about KD's injury.

If Lebron passed the ball up like Kawhi did, he would have been ripped by the media. Not sure why Kawhi got a pass for being meek.


It's not a mentality thing.

Kawhi is a much worse shot creator than MJ or Kobe... so he can't just pull up and shoot.

Kawhi is also a significantly worse playmaker than MJ or Kobe so he's not going to be hitting the open man (He's a even more significantly worse at playmaking compared to Lebron... so issue).

Finally he's not as good of a ballhandler and isn't super quick... so he's easier to trap than some guys.

Kawhi is a GREAT shooter ... but being able to get your shot off is a skill in and of itself
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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#46 » by dho4ever » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:21 pm

Steve Kerr in 1997
Derrick Fisher 0.4 second shot
Robert Horry... etc.

Let's not pretend that Jordan and Kobe closed EVERY game when it was on the line.
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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#47 » by GeorgeMarcus » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:22 pm

Mikistan wrote:
Why is Kyle Lowry spotting up for a 3 pointer when he is only down 1?


Probably to avoid crowding the lane
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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#48 » by thebigbird » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:23 pm

LivingLegend wrote:
An Unbiased Fan wrote:Difference is killer instinct. Kobe/MJ would have put the dagger in the Warroirs up by 6 with 3mins for a ring. Also, lol at Kobe haters. Dude closed more playoff games than almost all your fave players not names MJ.


Except the fact that he was completely broke when it came to the game being on the line shooting 23% going 5/22--which is the topic being asked about Kawhi. Numbers say Kobe didnt put the dagger in much of anything the vast majority of the time.

I also think there is a fine line between having a killer instinct and being a shot forcer.

He put the dagger in his own team quite a bit. #mambamentality
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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#49 » by GeorgeMarcus » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:24 pm

WebEmbiid wrote:I honestly believe Kawhi has the chance to be better than Kobe, he certainly has the physical and mental attributes of both of them.

You can see that Kawhi is visibly tired having to carry pretty much the entire TOR roster on his shoulders from the start.


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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#50 » by An Unbiased Fan » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:26 pm

An Unbiased Fan wrote:Difference is killer instinct. Kobe/MJ would have put the dagger in the Warroirs up by 6 with 3mins for a ring. Also, lol at Kobe haters. Dude closed more playoff games than almost all your fave players not names MJ.

This is nonsense. Kobe's play inspired the "dagger" phrase. He would kill a team in the 4th. Thing were don by he time the final seconds came.You're using a 22 shot sample of desperation heaves to some how dismiss the many 10+ point 4th comebacks Kobe led.

Would be like ignoring Brady's 4th comebacks, and jut looking at final pass numbers. :lol:
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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#51 » by LKN » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:27 pm

LivingLegend wrote:
JimmerAllStar wrote:Jordan and Kobe would have pulled up and shot it over the double team on that last play. Jordan and Kobe have that killer instinct in them.

But when Kawhi saw that double team, he immediately passed the ball which ended up in a Lowry side of a backboard 3 pointer. No one is talking about how Kawhi folded like a crane origami because today is all about KD's injury.

If Lebron passed the ball up like Kawhi did, he would have been ripped by the media. Not sure why Kawhi got a pass for being meek.


This is what happens when you have the mamba mentality and force game winners because you want to prove your an alpha male

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While I agree with your premise (and overall point)... I always feel these cherry picked stats (with tiny sample sizes) don't really mean much.

I think a broader "clutch time" definition (maybe last 5 minutes of playoff games within a certain margin or something) would show a lot more due to a much larger sample (I also think that MJ/Lebron would look good there too)
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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#52 » by LivingLegend » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:28 pm

LKN wrote:
JimmerAllStar wrote:Jordan and Kobe would have pulled up and shot it over the double team on that last play. Jordan and Kobe have that killer instinct in them.

But when Kawhi saw that double team, he immediately passed the ball which ended up in a Lowry side of a backboard 3 pointer. No one is talking about how Kawhi folded like a crane origami because today is all about KD's injury.

If Lebron passed the ball up like Kawhi did, he would have been ripped by the media. Not sure why Kawhi got a pass for being meek.


It's not a mentality thing.

Kawhi is a much worse shot creator than MJ or Kobe... so he can't just pull up and shoot.

Kawhi is also a significantly worse playmaker than MJ or Kobe so he's not going to be hitting the open man (He's a even more significantly worse at playmaking compared to Lebron... so issue).

Finally he's not as good of a ballhandler and isn't super quick... so he's easier to trap than some guys.

Kawhi is a GREAT shooter ... but being able to get your shot off is a skill in and of itself


Hes horrible at creating space for his shot and I would like to see his shooting numbers off-dribble because it seems like he is a far better set shot maker than a off dribble pull up type of shooter. It doesnt even look like he has a consistent step back jumper in his game which is what a player of his size (LeBron) uses a ton of to create space.

Nearly all of LeBrons game winners are either falling away off dribble or a sideways step back thing. Im not sure Kawhi can do either of those just from watching him play in these Finals. His jumper looks far to mechanical for set shots than it is a fluid in the game type of rhythm shot
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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#53 » by LKN » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:34 pm

LivingLegend wrote:
LKN wrote:
JimmerAllStar wrote:Jordan and Kobe would have pulled up and shot it over the double team on that last play. Jordan and Kobe have that killer instinct in them.

But when Kawhi saw that double team, he immediately passed the ball which ended up in a Lowry side of a backboard 3 pointer. No one is talking about how Kawhi folded like a crane origami because today is all about KD's injury.

If Lebron passed the ball up like Kawhi did, he would have been ripped by the media. Not sure why Kawhi got a pass for being meek.


It's not a mentality thing.

Kawhi is a much worse shot creator than MJ or Kobe... so he can't just pull up and shoot.

Kawhi is also a significantly worse playmaker than MJ or Kobe so he's not going to be hitting the open man (He's a even more significantly worse at playmaking compared to Lebron... so issue).

Finally he's not as good of a ballhandler and isn't super quick... so he's easier to trap than some guys.

Kawhi is a GREAT shooter ... but being able to get your shot off is a skill in and of itself


Hes horrible at creating space for his shot and I would like to see his shooting numbers off-dribble because it seems like he is a far better set shot maker than a off dribble pull up type of shooter. It doesnt even look like he has a consistent step back jumper in his game which is what a player of his size (LeBron) uses a ton of to create space.

Nearly all of LeBrons game winners are either falling away off dribble or a sideways step back thing. Im not sure Kawhi can do either of those just from watching him play in these Finals. His jumper looks far to mechanical for set shots than it is a fluid in the game type of rhythm shot


I agree he's not great at creating space for his shot... he's actually not bad on the pull-up and he has that nice fade-away in the lane (which is very MJ-esque). I think he struggles sometimes outside of that because he's not super quick and doesn't have a great first step (He's probably pretty easily the worst off the bounce of MJ, Kobe, Lebron).

If I were Kawhi I'd work on the late career MJ style post up fade-away. He already gets and makes this shot quite well in the lane just inside the FT line.. and I think he could use it in other areas. It would help him use his advantages (length and strength) and not rely on him being super quick.
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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#54 » by snaquille oatmeal » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:36 pm

taikibansei wrote:
See5 wrote:
taikibansei wrote:The biggest difference between MJ and Kobe. MJ would have pulled up, shot over the guy and hit the shot.

Kobe would have taken the shot...and bricked it.

Nice troll. /s

No, the real difference is shot creation and playmaking.

I don’t know if the latter is really Kawhi’s fault as he has operated as a traditional forward his entire career whereas the other two were primary ballhandlers for large stretches of their careers.


Troll post? :crazy:

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And here I thought I was actually being kind.

Oh, and here's my favorite example of Kobe's "play-making" and creativity:

Image

Apparently, nobody else on the Lakers was open.....

Here is mine:
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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#55 » by LivingLegend » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:45 pm

LKN wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
LKN wrote:
It's not a mentality thing.

Kawhi is a much worse shot creator than MJ or Kobe... so he can't just pull up and shoot.

Kawhi is also a significantly worse playmaker than MJ or Kobe so he's not going to be hitting the open man (He's a even more significantly worse at playmaking compared to Lebron... so issue).

Finally he's not as good of a ballhandler and isn't super quick... so he's easier to trap than some guys.

Kawhi is a GREAT shooter ... but being able to get your shot off is a skill in and of itself


Hes horrible at creating space for his shot and I would like to see his shooting numbers off-dribble because it seems like he is a far better set shot maker than a off dribble pull up type of shooter. It doesnt even look like he has a consistent step back jumper in his game which is what a player of his size (LeBron) uses a ton of to create space.

Nearly all of LeBrons game winners are either falling away off dribble or a sideways step back thing. Im not sure Kawhi can do either of those just from watching him play in these Finals. His jumper looks far to mechanical for set shots than it is a fluid in the game type of rhythm shot


I agree he's not great at creating space for his shot... he's actually not bad on the pull-up and he has that nice fade-away in the lane (which is very MJ-esque). I think he struggles sometimes outside of that because he's not super quick and doesn't have a great first step (He's probably pretty easily the worst off the bounce of MJ, Kobe, Lebron).

If I were Kawhi I'd work on the late career MJ style post up fade-away. He already gets and makes this shot quite well in the lane just inside the FT line.. and I think he could use it in other areas. It would help him use his advantages (length and strength) and not rely on him being super quick.


agreed, it seems as though he is going to max out as a great crafty mid-range guy who can also hit his open 3s given space. But yeah, thats another thing is that he struggles so much in terms of blowing by people and taking people off dribble. He seems to have very slow feet to get around the initial defender outside of just putting his shoulder down. Its almost like he seems like a super stiff non-agile version of LeBron.
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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#56 » by Myth » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:46 pm

JimmerAllStar wrote:Jordan and Kobe would have pulled up and shot it over the double team on that last play. Jordan and Kobe have that killer instinct in them.
.

Kobe probably would have missed and Jordan would have split the D and pulled up with a mid-range shot (or passed to a completely open player once the D collapsed on him), not bombed a 3. That wasn't Jordan's game.
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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#57 » by G35 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:54 pm

An Unbiased Fan wrote:Difference is killer instinct. Kobe/MJ would have put the dagger in the Warroirs up by 6 with 3mins for a ring. Also, lol at Kobe haters. Dude closed more playoff games than almost all your fave players not names MJ.



Exactly, who else can say they closed more playoff games than Kobe, only Jordan. Certainly was not Lebron.

Also, what is the success rate on scoring a basket normally?

Then what is the success rate of scoring in the last five seconds of a game?

Then what is the success rate of scoring in the last five seconds of a game in the finals?

It's a very low rate, people need to quit acting like its not a very very hard thing to score a last second basket at this level of basketball......
I'm so tired of the typical......
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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#58 » by LKN » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:00 pm

LivingLegend wrote:
LKN wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
Hes horrible at creating space for his shot and I would like to see his shooting numbers off-dribble because it seems like he is a far better set shot maker than a off dribble pull up type of shooter. It doesnt even look like he has a consistent step back jumper in his game which is what a player of his size (LeBron) uses a ton of to create space.

Nearly all of LeBrons game winners are either falling away off dribble or a sideways step back thing. Im not sure Kawhi can do either of those just from watching him play in these Finals. His jumper looks far to mechanical for set shots than it is a fluid in the game type of rhythm shot


I agree he's not great at creating space for his shot... he's actually not bad on the pull-up and he has that nice fade-away in the lane (which is very MJ-esque). I think he struggles sometimes outside of that because he's not super quick and doesn't have a great first step (He's probably pretty easily the worst off the bounce of MJ, Kobe, Lebron).

If I were Kawhi I'd work on the late career MJ style post up fade-away. He already gets and makes this shot quite well in the lane just inside the FT line.. and I think he could use it in other areas. It would help him use his advantages (length and strength) and not rely on him being super quick.


agreed, it seems as though he is going to max out as a great crafty mid-range guy who can also hit his open 3s given space. But yeah, thats another thing is that he struggles so much in terms of blowing by people and taking people off dribble. He seems to have very slow feet to get around the initial defender outside of just putting his shoulder down. Its almost like he seems like a super stiff non-agile version of LeBron.


He can score going to the rim too... but he heavily relies on getting FT calls and I don't think he's a particularly great finisher (he's not bad either though). His efficiency has been great the last 2 years because he's a very good shooter and has been getting an pretty generous allotment of FTs.

He looked pretty human last night when he wasn't getting the whistles and was instead turning the ball over a bunch. (Kawhi isn't MJ, but he does generally have good turnover economy)
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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#59 » by prophet_of_rage » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:05 pm

JimmerAllStar wrote:
Mikistan wrote:Kawhi hit a 3, got a rebound, hit a 2, hit another 3, then hit another 2 all in a row

Then he got tired

Kyle and Gasol kept trying to over-force passes to Kawhi the rest of the 4th, reverting to defer-basketball to "hope not to lose" and you want to blame Kawhi for making the proper basketball play off of no set actions and no time out on the last play.


Why is Kyle Lowry spotting up for a 3 pointer when he is only down 1?


I've seen Jordan play enough times, and the Bulls did the same thing. They kept riding Jordan. But Jordan, no matter how tired would have taken the game-winning shot even if there were 3 or 4 defenders in front of him.


Like the shot he hit to beat Phoenix in Game 6! ... wait. I meant the shot to beat Utah in 97! No, dammit!
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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#60 » by The Explorer » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:10 pm

JimmerAllStar wrote:If Lebron passed the ball up like Kawhi did, he would have been ripped by the media. Not sure why Kawhi got a pass for being meek.


Lebron got ripped when he passed the ball without being double teamed or when most felt he could have taken his man and scored. Kawhi got double teamed and passed. Big difference. Lebron also came in to the league as a savior, a king, whereas Kawhi came in as just a defender who gradually developed his offensive game so the expectations were not the same with Kawhi.
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