Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe

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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#61 » by GYK » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:20 pm

mentality post bug me.
play difference is their effectiveness and volume from midrange.
Jordan is pretty much perfect.
Kobe is underrated. his volume and efficiency from midrange is insane. for how nuanced we are on basketball we ignore styles and their usefulness. we also ignore how he pretty much grew his style in one era and played mostly against zone. all along in the slowest most halfcourt era in history.
Kawhi is just lacking volume. I don't blame his passing on lack of vision or anything. I think its playstyle. he's isolated and there's no movement. the triangle is underrated here. same reason why KD assist numbers jumped with the Dubs. his style is a midrange player. high post isolated. here he has cutters moving. if Kawhi had constant movement around him I think his assist number would reach highs some would think as a jump but to me just a met opportunity.
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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#62 » by LKN » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:22 pm

G35 wrote:
An Unbiased Fan wrote:Difference is killer instinct. Kobe/MJ would have put the dagger in the Warroirs up by 6 with 3mins for a ring. Also, lol at Kobe haters. Dude closed more playoff games than almost all your fave players not names MJ.



Exactly, who else can say they closed more playoff games than Kobe, only Jordan. Certainly was not Lebron.

Also, what is the success rate on scoring a basket normally?

Then what is the success rate of scoring in the last five seconds of a game?

Then what is the success rate of scoring in the last five seconds of a game in the finals?

It's a very low rate, people need to quit acting like its not a very very hard thing to score a last second basket at this level of basketball......


Kobe didn't always have the best percentages.... however, as I mentioned earlier what gets underrated about Kobe is shot creation.

Kobe wasn't MJ, but like MJ he was able to create a lot of shots (almost regardless of the defense) without turning the ball over very often. He just couldn't get the same quality of shots MJ did (and he wasn't as good at making them) and he turned the ball over a bit more... but the principle still holds.

People focus too much on TS and ignore TOV%. It's probably better for Kobe to create and miss 2 shots than for him to commit a single turnover (esp if it's live ball). At least on those 2 shots his team had a 30+% chance to get the ORB.


One thing people need to understand is under Phil Jackson TOV% and ORB% (along with eFG%) were always emphasized. Kobe's style of play was actually somewhat inline with what the coaches were going after (and you'll note the two Kobe centric title teams were good on both counts). Phil never worried as much about FT/FGA (the 4th factor) which was probably smart as you have the least control over that one.

2000 Lakers: 3rd in TOV%, 5th in ORB%
2001 Lakers: 6th in TOV%, 3rd in ORB% (only Phil title team outside of the top 5 in TOV%.. and they were 6th!)
2002 Lakers: 2nd in TOV%, 16th in ORB% (only Phil title team outside of top 10 in ORB% and 1 of 2 not in top 5)
2009 Lakers: 5th in TOV%, 3rd in ORB%
2010 Lakers: 5th in TOV%, 7th in ORB% (1 of 2 Phil title teams not in the top 5 of ORB%)

The 6 Bulls title teams were generally even better on TOV% and ORB% than the Lakers teams:

1991 Bulls: 3rd in TOV%, 4th in ORB%
1992 Bulls: 2nd in TOV%, 5th in ORB%
1993 Bulls: 1st in TOV%, 1st in ORB%
1996 Bulls: 1st in TOV%, 1st in ORB%
1997 Bulls: 1st in TOV%, 2nd in ORB%
1998 Bulls: 4th in TOV%, 2nd in ORB%

Basically "Dont turn the ball over, get up a lot of decent shots and crash the offensive boards" - by the end of the game you can often overwhelm your opponent by having way more FGAs than them
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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#63 » by LKN » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:24 pm

prophet_of_rage wrote:
JimmerAllStar wrote:
Mikistan wrote:Kawhi hit a 3, got a rebound, hit a 2, hit another 3, then hit another 2 all in a row

Then he got tired

Kyle and Gasol kept trying to over-force passes to Kawhi the rest of the 4th, reverting to defer-basketball to "hope not to lose" and you want to blame Kawhi for making the proper basketball play off of no set actions and no time out on the last play.


Why is Kyle Lowry spotting up for a 3 pointer when he is only down 1?


I've seen Jordan play enough times, and the Bulls did the same thing. They kept riding Jordan. But Jordan, no matter how tired would have taken the game-winning shot even if there were 3 or 4 defenders in front of him.


Like the shot he hit to beat Phoenix in Game 6! ... wait. I meant the shot to beat Utah in 97! No, dammit!


LOL to be fair.... the Utah shot was because they doubled MJ and that Paxson shot was literally the only non MJ points of the entire quarter.

But yes, I get your point.... no one is a one man team :D

In any case "clutch shots" are overrated... I'd rather my team win by 15 and MJ/Lebron/etc can chill on the bench and rest up for the next game
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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#64 » by heatwillbeback » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:27 pm

Yea Lebron would of been ripped because that’s what people love to do.

Kawhi made the correct basketball decision. As Lebron has done many times in the past.

As for the play as a whole, Nurse should of called a timeout so they could advance it and Raptors should of shot it well before the buzzer. You don’t hold when down 1. If you miss you foul and have another chance down 3 at the worst.
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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#65 » by TheGOATWill » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:34 pm

load management??
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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#66 » by wilhelmthe1st » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:38 pm

https://defpen.com/myths-kobe-bryant/

But fourth quarter stats can be misleading, right? Who knows if he was just putting up numbers in the fourth when the game was already decided? When using the NBA’s definition of clutch, the last five minutes of the fourth quarter or overtime, when the score is within five points, we find an interesting result. All stats are per 36 minutes, requiring at least 10 minutes played in clutch situations, and TS% requires a minimum of 15 FGA in clutch situations

Image

:confused: :confused: :confused:
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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#67 » by C3H6N6O6 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:40 pm

The Explorer wrote:
JimmerAllStar wrote:If Lebron passed the ball up like Kawhi did, he would have been ripped by the media. Not sure why Kawhi got a pass for being meek.


Lebron got ripped when he passed the ball without being double teamed or when most felt he could have taken his man and scored. Kawhi got double teamed and passed. Big difference. Lebron also came in to the league as a savior, a king, whereas Kawhi came in as just a defender who gradually developed his offensive game so the expectations were not the same with Kawhi.

George Hill was wide open under the basket. Any player not passing the ball in that situation is an idiot. Klay had to grab him to stop him from scoring.
Jordan certainly would have passed the ball to George Hill in that situation 100 out of 100 times.

Image

Just look at this picture and tell me another play. If Klay had straight away went for Hill, Korver would be wide open.
Green and KD are right there waiting for LeBron's drive. Green totally forgets George Hill trying to help Curry in defending LeBron.
This leads to Hill getting open under the basket and Klay has to foul him.
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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#68 » by Mikistan » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:43 pm

LKN wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
LKN wrote:
I agree he's not great at creating space for his shot... he's actually not bad on the pull-up and he has that nice fade-away in the lane (which is very MJ-esque). I think he struggles sometimes outside of that because he's not super quick and doesn't have a great first step (He's probably pretty easily the worst off the bounce of MJ, Kobe, Lebron).

If I were Kawhi I'd work on the late career MJ style post up fade-away. He already gets and makes this shot quite well in the lane just inside the FT line.. and I think he could use it in other areas. It would help him use his advantages (length and strength) and not rely on him being super quick.


agreed, it seems as though he is going to max out as a great crafty mid-range guy who can also hit his open 3s given space. But yeah, thats another thing is that he struggles so much in terms of blowing by people and taking people off dribble. He seems to have very slow feet to get around the initial defender outside of just putting his shoulder down. Its almost like he seems like a super stiff non-agile version of LeBron.


He can score going to the rim too... but he heavily relies on getting FT calls and I don't think he's a particularly great finisher (he's not bad either though). His efficiency has been great the last 2 years because he's a very good shooter and has been getting an absolutely ridiculous amount of FTs. Through 5 games against GS Kawhi has already shot more FTAs than MJ did in 4/6 of his finals series (3 of these went 6 games). He's taken more FTAs in the finals than Lebron ever did outside of 2015. (Granted I've always though it was somewhat fair to allow contact on Lebron drives if they are also going to allow him to push off/stiff arm.... the thing is Kawhi does the stiff arm thing quite a bit and STILL gets calls.... which seems a lot less fair)

I mean maybe the guy is just a Harden level FT drawer... I dunno, but he looked pretty human last night when he wasn't getting the whistles and was instead turning the ball over a bunch. (Kawhi isn't MJ, but he does generally have good turnover economy)

No **** he gets more free throws. Our game plan is to attack the rim because they don't have shot blockers.
Secondly yo. Need to adjust for pace if you want to compare free throw attempts between eras outright
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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#69 » by Noctilux » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:51 pm

1993Playoffs wrote:Stop grouping Kobe with MJ


Most players do. But hey, what do they know compared to you.
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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#70 » by LKN » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:53 pm

Mikistan wrote:
LKN wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
agreed, it seems as though he is going to max out as a great crafty mid-range guy who can also hit his open 3s given space. But yeah, thats another thing is that he struggles so much in terms of blowing by people and taking people off dribble. He seems to have very slow feet to get around the initial defender outside of just putting his shoulder down. Its almost like he seems like a super stiff non-agile version of LeBron.


He can score going to the rim too... but he heavily relies on getting FT calls and I don't think he's a particularly great finisher (he's not bad either though). His efficiency has been great the last 2 years because he's a very good shooter and has been getting an absolutely ridiculous amount of FTs. Through 5 games against GS Kawhi has already shot more FTAs than MJ did in 4/6 of his finals series (3 of these went 6 games). He's taken more FTAs in the finals than Lebron ever did outside of 2015. (Granted I've always though it was somewhat fair to allow contact on Lebron drives if they are also going to allow him to push off/stiff arm.... the thing is Kawhi does the stiff arm thing quite a bit and STILL gets calls.... which seems a lot less fair)

I mean maybe the guy is just a Harden level FT drawer... I dunno, but he looked pretty human last night when he wasn't getting the whistles and was instead turning the ball over a bunch. (Kawhi isn't MJ, but he does generally have good turnover economy)

No **** he gets more free throws. Our game plan is to attack the rim because they don't have shot blockers.
Secondly yo. Need to adjust for pace if you want to compare free throw attempts between eras outright


Oh I agree.... (I usually look at both FTA/FGA and FTA/2PFGA). Was just saying he's shot A LOT of FTAs (and to be fair - it's not just a Kawhi thing... Curry has been getting an absurd amount this series too).

In any case I edited my original post to eliminate most of the fT stuff.... your (fair) reaction made me realize it was too trollish and inflammatory
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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#71 » by LakersLegacy » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:02 pm

Kawhi was getting ready to do to the Warriors what he did to Philly. But then he passed the ball. It was crazy.

What Kawahi did to the Warriors with 6 mins left to 3 mins left was absolute domination. Then...
60odbye Kobe
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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#72 » by triple_threat » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:06 pm

JimmerAllStar wrote:
Amare_1_Knicks wrote:Lebron literally passed the ball in the same situation in game 1 of the finals a year ago. Shooting over two defenders aggressively approaching you in that situation is a bad, low percentage shot. I thought, if anything, Nick Nurse should’ve called a time out and set up a play or an isolation; the Warriors set up their defense pretty well on the fly anyway.


yes, and he got ripped by the media and public for doing so. When you're an elite player, you don't pass up game winning shots.


i will take lebron's decision making over yours
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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#73 » by An Unbiased Fan » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:06 pm

wilhelmthe1st wrote:https://defpen.com/myths-kobe-bryant/

But fourth quarter stats can be misleading, right? Who knows if he was just putting up numbers in the fourth when the game was already decided? When using the NBA’s definition of clutch, the last five minutes of the fourth quarter or overtime, when the score is within five points, we find an interesting result. All stats are per 36 minutes, requiring at least 10 minutes played in clutch situations, and TS% requires a minimum of 15 FGA in clutch situations

Image

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Yep, this what I was referring to. Kobe was a killer in the 4th, everyone saw. Stats like this with actual sample sizes get buried.
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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#74 » by Ambrose » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:10 pm

JimmerAllStar wrote:
Amare_1_Knicks wrote:Lebron literally passed the ball in the same situation in game 1 of the finals a year ago. Shooting over two defenders aggressively approaching you in that situation is a bad, low percentage shot. I thought, if anything, Nick Nurse should’ve called a time out and set up a play or an isolation; the Warriors set up their defense pretty well on the fly anyway.


yes, and he got ripped by the media and public for doing so. When you're an elite player, you don't pass up game winning shots.


You're new to this basketball thing aren't you? The best shot to take is an open shot. Rising up over two guys to force something because you're supposedly the team's alpha is archaic thinking.
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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#75 » by LKN » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:13 pm

Ambrose wrote:
JimmerAllStar wrote:
Amare_1_Knicks wrote:Lebron literally passed the ball in the same situation in game 1 of the finals a year ago. Shooting over two defenders aggressively approaching you in that situation is a bad, low percentage shot. I thought, if anything, Nick Nurse should’ve called a time out and set up a play or an isolation; the Warriors set up their defense pretty well on the fly anyway.


yes, and he got ripped by the media and public for doing so. When you're an elite player, you don't pass up game winning shots.


You're new to this basketball thing aren't you? The best shot to take is an open shot. Rising up over two guys to force something because you're supposedly the team's alpha is archaic thinking.


Eh.... it depends WHO is shooting too.

I'd honestly prefer a MJ/Lebron jumpshot against a double team in crunch time over an open jumpshot by a lot of other guys.
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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#76 » by Spintown » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:18 pm

triple_threat wrote:
JimmerAllStar wrote:
Amare_1_Knicks wrote:Lebron literally passed the ball in the same situation in game 1 of the finals a year ago. Shooting over two defenders aggressively approaching you in that situation is a bad, low percentage shot. I thought, if anything, Nick Nurse should’ve called a time out and set up a play or an isolation; the Warriors set up their defense pretty well on the fly anyway.


yes, and he got ripped by the media and public for doing so. When you're an elite player, you don't pass up game winning shots.


i will take lebron's decision making over yours


Then You'll take a Big Fat L too.
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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#77 » by lakerz12 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:18 pm

Biggest difference is Kawhi lacks quickness and agility compared to Kobe or MJ.

Kawhi uses size and strength to generate offense. Kobe and MJ used speed, footwork, quickness and jumping/fading to create space.
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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#78 » by Ree4erMadness » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:23 pm

Hate topics like these. Kawhi's name should not be mentioned in the same sentence with MJ and thats no disrespect to Kawhi.
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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#79 » by brownbobcat » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:24 pm

lakerz12 wrote:Biggest difference is Kawhi lacks quickness and agility compared to Kobe or MJ.

Kawhi uses size and strength to generate offense. Kobe and MJ used speed, footwork, quickness and jumping/fading to create space.

Surprisingly for a such a big/strong player, he doesn't have much of a back to the basket game.
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Re: Difference between Kawhi and MJ/Kobe 

Post#80 » by G35 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:25 pm

LKN wrote:
G35 wrote:
An Unbiased Fan wrote:Difference is killer instinct. Kobe/MJ would have put the dagger in the Warroirs up by 6 with 3mins for a ring. Also, lol at Kobe haters. Dude closed more playoff games than almost all your fave players not names MJ.



Exactly, who else can say they closed more playoff games than Kobe, only Jordan. Certainly was not Lebron.

Also, what is the success rate on scoring a basket normally?

Then what is the success rate of scoring in the last five seconds of a game?

Then what is the success rate of scoring in the last five seconds of a game in the finals?

It's a very low rate, people need to quit acting like its not a very very hard thing to score a last second basket at this level of basketball......


Kobe didn't always have the best percentages.... however, as I mentioned earlier what gets underrated about Kobe is shot creation.

Kobe wasn't MJ, but like MJ he was able to create a lot of shots (almost regardless of the defense) without turning the ball over very often. He just couldn't get the same quality of shots MJ did (and he wasn't as good at making them) and he turned the ball over a bit more... but the principle still holds.

People focus too much on TS and ignore TOV%. It's probably better for Kobe to create and miss 2 shots than for him to commit a single turnover (esp if it's live ball). At least on those 2 shots his team had a 30+% chance to get the ORB.


One thing people need to understand is under Phil Jackson TOV% and ORB% (along with eFG%) were always emphasized. Kobe's style of play was actually somewhat inline with what the coaches were going after (and you'll note the two Kobe centric title teams were good on both counts). Phil never worried as much about FT/FGA (the 4th factor) which was probably smart as you have the least control over that one.

2000 Lakers: 3rd in TOV%, 5th in ORB%
2001 Lakers: 6th in TOV%, 3rd in ORB% (only Phil title team outside of the top 5 in TOV%.. and they were 6th!)
2002 Lakers: 2nd in TOV%, 16th in ORB% (only Phil title team outside of top 10 in ORB% and 1 of 2 not in top 5)
2009 Lakers: 5th in TOV%, 3rd in ORB%
2010 Lakers: 5th in TOV%, 7th in ORB% (1 of 2 Phil title teams not in the top 5 of ORB%)

The 6 Bulls title teams were generally even better on TOV% and ORB% than the Lakers teams:

1991 Bulls: 3rd in TOV%, 4th in ORB%
1992 Bulls: 2nd in TOV%, 5th in ORB%
1993 Bulls: 1st in TOV%, 1st in ORB%
1996 Bulls: 1st in TOV%, 1st in ORB%
1997 Bulls: 1st in TOV%, 2nd in ORB%
1998 Bulls: 4th in TOV%, 2nd in ORB%

Basically "Dont turn the ball over, get up a lot of decent shots and crash the offensive boards" - by the end of the game you can often overwhelm your opponent by having way more FGAs than them



Great post.

I agree with what you're saying.

The difference what I saw between Kobe and Mike is Mike was able to get easier shots than Kobe, probably due to his larger hands and being a better overall athlete. But overall, as you said the concept remains the same.

The only quibble I have with Kawhi, because he's been amazing this playoffs better than I anticipated, is that there are times when he can't create something against certain defenses and he has been more turnover prone against double teams and trying to drive the ball......
I'm so tired of the typical......

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