Woj: Kawhi still leaning towards Clippers, Raptors have a lot of work to do still

[poomaster]

Durant averaged what 35/10/5 that series?

Kevin Durant averaged 72% TS on 33% USG against the Clippers. Scoring on 6 foot Patrick Beverly and the rest of the underdog Clippers was beyond effortless for him, they simply had no one who could even hope to slow him down.

(For comparison, Durant averaged 59% TS on 33% USG against the Rockets.)

Warriors called them one of their toughest series mentally and physically in the last few years.

The Warriors outscored the Clippers by an average margin of victory of 9.8 points over 6 games, which is slightly higher than their average margin of victory against the Blazers (9.5 points, 4 games), and far higher than their margin of victory against the Rockets (1.8 points, 6 games).

It wasn't a tough series for the Warriors at all.

Klay was healthy. Much harder team than the Raptors faced.

The Clippers would still lose unceremoniously to the Warriors even if Kevin Durant was out for the entire series and Klay Thompson missed one full game. Stephen Curry averaged 71% TS on 25% USG against the Clippers, which is beyond effortless even for him. (For comparison, Curry averaged 54% TS on 28% USG against the Rockets, 66% TS on 35% USG against the Blazers, and 60% TS on 30% USG against the Raptors. Just like Durant, Curry absolutely lit up the Clippers.)

No context. In 2 of the 3 real blowouts the games were close most of the time until the 4th. Only 1 game did the Warriors pretty much dominate start to finish. That was a healthy Warriors mind you, fully rested. As for Klay he didnt miss finals games besides the very untimely one, but he was injured since game 6 of the Clippers series.

As for the Clippers not being able to guard KD, no ****. They weren't even supposed to be there. Wonder how much better the Warriors differentials against the next teams would be with KD?? They were heavy title favorites.

The Warriors didn't take the Clippers seriously, your 2 wins are equivalent to Orlando taking a game from the Raptors because they were lazy. Not sure if you bothered watching GSW against Houston or Toronto, those were wars and GSW's effort level and execution on offense / defense was far more intense that the 1st round. Or are you claiming you are as good as Houston because you managed to get as many games as them from the Warriors? Good luck with that. Not all playoff wins are created equal, especially 1 v 8 seeds.

[OkcSinceSGA]

I like Shai, but I hope you realize that superstars don’t join teams because they have a promising player who just made 2nd team all rookie. Plus Kuzma and Ball both made All-rookie 12 months ago. That’s not how it works.

Maybe not. I do think young players with upside to be a star potentially, or at least great starter for many years in the Mike Conley mold, should be a factor. It's short sighted IMO to only look at veteran established players. Gotta consider upside.

PS.. SGA should of been first team. Sure his stats weren't huge, but they are in line with multiple great rookie PG's learning the position. He was the only rookie to start on a playoff team and was a huge factor this year.

Your young players are too young, IMO. If Kawhi comes, the Clippers are better off looking for a trade. Kawhi played through a great deal of pain to win this title - he was visibly limping and stopped hiding the fact that he was in a lot of pain. Can SGA be the #2 guy on a title team next year, or the year after that? Kawhi is an incredible player, and I think every Raptor fan would give him the supermax to go put up 2 points on 10% shooting for the next 5 years for this title, but from the Clippers' title hopes POV I'd be worried about the leap the guys need to make to contend.

That being said, with GSW going down completely the West is absolutely wide open. If AD doesn't go to LA and Bulter stays in Philly, then I think the Clippers could win the title next season with Kawhi.

This is fair, thanks for the post. I do agree Kawhi would need to be patient for probably 2-3 years if he joined Clips. I already admitted previously Raptors have legit 2-3 year window NOW. Clips would be more a gamble based on the kids panning out as you mentioned. I think they will, but maybe Kawhi's quad doesn't hold up 2-3 years though?

IF Kawhi is coming, I would be okay with packaging SGA+Harrell+Robinson and multiple 1sts for AD. So Kawhi's prime is maximized. Pelicans have great interest in SGA, but Clips don't wanna empty cupboard for just 1 star who easily walks next summer.

[durka]

I like Shai, but I hope you realize that superstars don’t join teams because they have a promising player who just made 2nd team all rookie. Plus Kuzma and Ball both made All-rookie 12 months ago. That’s not how it works.

Maybe not. I do think young players with upside to be a star potentially, or at least great starter for many years in the Mike Conley mold, should be a factor. It's short sighted IMO to only look at veteran established players. Gotta consider upside.

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If Kawhi listed the top 30 things he’s considering as a free agent, I doubt that ‘playing with Shai’ cracks his list. Which isn’t a slight on Shai, just reality. It certainly wouldn’t be as important as ‘how good is your medical staff’ and ‘what are your thoughts on load management.’

Anyways, if he’s always had it in his mind that he’s signing with the Clips and nothing has changed, there isn’t anything else anyone needs to do. I personally think he’s going to sign a 1+1 deal with the Raps while they still have the core together and because they have treated him and his family so well, and then opts out and signs with the Clips long term in 2020. We’ll find out.

I think the move for the Raps is to do what GS was rumored to be planning to offer KD. The 5 year max with the option to be traded to his choice destination whenever he wants. Gives him the chance to run it back and defend his title, long term contract security with his injury history and the chance to go to LA next offseasons if he pleases. If he says no to that there's truly nothing else the raps could have done.

[Forte IV]

imagine winning multiple titles in a country with this many fans or helping the lakers little adopted brother.

It's crazy how so many Raptors fans turned sour as soon as they had a championship run. The Clippers and the Raptors were always cut from the same cloth, and yet here you are attacking them? Do you forget where your franchise came from?

Cut out of the same cloth? You mean our previous owner was a cheapskate and racist? And we are forced to share the same stadium as the more famous storied franchise? And we have an arrogance about us because we reside in one of the two largest markets in North America and feel entitled to all the best talent because of it?

Nothing could be more different. Toronto has always been the underdog...and never expected to be a winner as a result of being in Canada...but the ONLY franchise in Canada...and the largest market in Canada no less...which is 4th largest in North America. We have misconceptions about taxes and weather to deal with.

Smh. If you think Clippers fans are arrogant you are a fool. We're exactly like Raptors fans, not entitled, and extremely happy a player chose to play for us. We're humble in every way and NEVER expect a player to come play here. Just because the media says someone like Kawhi wants to be here doesn't mean any of us actually believe it until we see it. Cut from the same cloth. The Raptors have never been taken seriously in Toronto by America, at all. Cut from the same cloth. The Raptors were run badly, cut from the same cloth. The Raptors always had a solid core but could never quite finish, cut from the same cloth. The Raptors have a passionate fan base that are just glad you're willing to play for them, cut from the same cloth. Everything I just said has always applied to both the Clippers and the Raptors. So yes, cut form the same cloth. Stop being cocky.

[XxIronChainzxX]

Maybe not. I do think young players with upside to be a star potentially, or at least great starter for many years in the Mike Conley mold, should be a factor. It's short sighted IMO to only look at veteran established players. Gotta consider upside.

PS.. SGA should of been first team. Sure his stats weren't huge, but they are in line with multiple great rookie PG's learning the position. He was the only rookie to start on a playoff team and was a huge factor this year.

Your young players are too young, IMO. If Kawhi comes, the Clippers are better off looking for a trade. Kawhi played through a great deal of pain to win this title - he was visibly limping and stopped hiding the fact that he was in a lot of pain. Can SGA be the #2 guy on a title team next year, or the year after that? Kawhi is an incredible player, and I think every Raptor fan would give him the supermax to go put up 2 points on 10% shooting for the next 5 years for this title, but from the Clippers' title hopes POV I'd be worried about the leap the guys need to make to contend.

That being said, with GSW going down completely the West is absolutely wide open. If AD doesn't go to LA and Bulter stays in Philly, then I think the Clippers could win the title next season with Kawhi.

This is fair, thanks for the post. I do agree Kawhi would need to be patient for probably 2-3 years if he joined Clips. I already admitted previously Raptors have legit 2-3 year window NOW. Clips would be more a gamble based on the kids panning out as you mentioned. I think they will, maybe Kawhi's quad doesn't hold up 2-3 years though?

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With a caveat for what KD and LeBron did from a competitive POV, I fully support player's freedom to move wherever so long as they leave it all on the floor for the franchise they're under contract. Kawhi gave everything for the Raptors and put his body on the line for this title. If he goes to the Clippers, you guys are getting a new (temporary) fan.

I think the key for the Clippers will be their ability to win consistently without Kawhi and get a top 4 seed seeing as he may need to continue to manage his minutes and games in the RS.

I wouldn't discount the Clippers ability to be a contender next season if they get Kawhi. The Raptors revamped a strong team with a mid-season trade, and that really launched them on the path to being a dark horse title team.

The Clippers have assets and - if people are healthy - they could absolutely challenge for a title.

My real point though was less the Clippers ability to win now, and more that once you consider they could be a contender and you add to that the fact it's a lot closer to home for Kawhi, you've already got a great pitch. Assuming it is closer to home - I honestly do not know a lot about the relative difference or ties in California.

[OkcSinceSGA]

Your young players are too young, IMO. If Kawhi comes, the Clippers are better off looking for a trade. Kawhi played through a great deal of pain to win this title - he was visibly limping and stopped hiding the fact that he was in a lot of pain. Can SGA be the #2 guy on a title team next year, or the year after that? Kawhi is an incredible player, and I think every Raptor fan would give him the supermax to go put up 2 points on 10% shooting for the next 5 years for this title, but from the Clippers' title hopes POV I'd be worried about the leap the guys need to make to contend.

That being said, with GSW going down completely the West is absolutely wide open. If AD doesn't go to LA and Bulter stays in Philly, then I think the Clippers could win the title next season with Kawhi.

This is fair, thanks for the post. I do agree Kawhi would need to be patient for probably 2-3 years if he joined Clips. I already admitted previously Raptors have legit 2-3 year window NOW. Clips would be more a gamble based on the kids panning out as you mentioned. I think they will, maybe Kawhi's quad doesn't hold up 2-3 years though?

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With a caveat for what KD and LeBron did from a competitive POV, I fully support player's freedom to move wherever so long as they leave it all on the floor for the franchise they're under contract. Kawhi gave everything for the Raptors and put his body on the line for this title. If he goes to the Clippers, you guys are getting a new (temporary) fan.

I think the key for the Clippers will be their ability to win consistently without Kawhi and get a top 4 seed seeing as he may need to continue to manage his minutes and games in the RS.

I wouldn't discount the Clippers ability to be a contender next season if they get Kawhi. The Raptors revamped a strong team with a mid-season trade, and that really launched them on the path to being a dark horse title team.

The Clippers have assets and - if people are healthy - they could absolutely challenge for a title.

My real point though was less the Clippers ability to win now, and more that once you consider they could be a contender and you add to that the fact it's a lot closer to home for Kawhi, you've already got a great pitch. Assuming it is closer to home - I honestly do not know a lot about the relative difference or ties in California.

Good stuff, I agree with pretty much all of it. San Diego is about 2 hours from LA. He actually grew up in Riverside/Inland Empire though which is 45 from LA. I'm about to do the drive this morning for a weekend trip to San Diego. SeaWorld and the beach etc for my first Father's day.

[The_Hater]

Maybe not. I do think young players with upside to be a star potentially, or at least great starter for many years in the Mike Conley mold, should be a factor. It's short sighted IMO to only look at veteran established players. Gotta consider upside.

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If Kawhi listed the top 30 things he’s considering as a free agent, I doubt that ‘playing with Shai’ cracks his list. Which isn’t a slight on Shai, just reality. It certainly wouldn’t be as important as ‘how good is your medical staff’ and ‘what are your thoughts on load management.’

Anyways, if he’s always had it in his mind that he’s signing with the Clips and nothing has changed, there isn’t anything else anyone needs to do. I personally think he’s going to sign a 1+1 deal with the Raps while they still have the core together and because they have treated him and his family so well, and then opts out and signs with the Clips long term in 2020. We’ll find out.

I think the move for the Raps is to do what GS was rumored to be planning to offer KD. The 5 year max with the option to be traded to his choice destination whenever he wants. Gives him the chance to run it back and defend his title, long term contract security with his injury history and the chance to go to LA next offseasons if he pleases. If he says no to that there's truly nothing else the raps could have done.

The ‘option to be traded’ sounds great on paper but just doesn’t work In reality for the player. First, it leaves most of the decision making out of the players hands. It’s a verbal arrangement, they don’t get to choose their destination. Second, it strips the team you’re joining of several key assets which doesn’t help them contend.

[Dino353]

Kawhi I’m sure wants more rings but he already has 2, what more does he have to prove?

On the Clippers he would get to play with a top flight guard in Shai and Zubac who could be a top 5 center over the next 10 years. Harrell at the 4 and they could play Jerome Robinson who has all the makings of an ideal two way guard who can shoot and finish at the rim.

With Kawhi they’ll be a 54-59 win team, making the Finals with a starting lineup of

Shai-Robinson-Kawhi-Harrell-Zubac

is possible.

[OkcSinceSGA]

Kawhi I’m sure wants more rings but he already has 2, what more does he have to prove?

On the Clippers he would get to play with a top flight guard in Shai and Zubac who could be a top 5 center over the next 10 years. Harrell at the 4 and they could play Jerome Robinson who has all the makings of an ideal two way guard who can shoot and finish at the rim.

With Kawhi they’ll be a 54-59 win team, making the Finals with a starting lineup of

Shai-Robinson-Kawhi-Harrell-Zubac

is possible.

Shamet is way ahead Robinson developmentally right now and is our starting SG, and Zubac is a good backup probably, not starter on contender. Jerome shows flashes of being a future 6th man scorer, maybe best case to replace Lou. Harrell is adding the 3 this summer, watch for him to put up 20/10 type numbers with more minutes (this year did 17/7 in 26 minutes per game).

Not sure if your post is sarcasm or not, but adding Kawhi is worth 10 wins for sure.

[Lockdown]

translated it means Woj has no idea what will happen.

I’m pretty sure it would mean he doesn’t want to have to carry the load at both ends the way he had to this postseason because it’s a massive strain on his body, he couldn’t even dunk in the Finals. They need to get another consistent star. They also were fortunate to run up against a depleted team - that’s part of the game, but you need to do something to convince him it’s repeatable.

They also need to convince him the team isn’t a year or so away from Gasol/Lowry/Ibaka/Green being over the hill. Just saying “we have cap space next summer” isn’t enough, it’s no guarantee of anything.

That said, I think everyone who thinks the Clippers are a pre-baked contender who just need to add Kawhi are overrating them. They overachieved in a season where half the West had a weirdly bad year. Everyone’s talking about Doc Rivers being this master coach, but unless he has prime KG, overachieving with underdog teams seems to be all he really accomplishes. The Celtics let him walk & were fine, while the Lob City era Clippers never once got out of the second round.

Didn't the Raptors get out of the 2nd round just once despite being in the east? It's crazy how one break through (almost lost to Sixers also) and suddenly Raptors can teach everyone how to win lol. They were universally considered a treadmill team and 2nd round fizz out the last few years

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If they were adding Kawhi to the lob city team then you’d have a point.

[OkcSinceSGA]

I’m pretty sure it would mean he doesn’t want to have to carry the load at both ends the way he had to this postseason because it’s a massive strain on his body, he couldn’t even dunk in the Finals. They need to get another consistent star. They also were fortunate to run up against a depleted team - that’s part of the game, but you need to do something to convince him it’s repeatable.

They also need to convince him the team isn’t a year or so away from Gasol/Lowry/Ibaka/Green being over the hill. Just saying “we have cap space next summer” isn’t enough, it’s no guarantee of anything.

That said, I think everyone who thinks the Clippers are a pre-baked contender who just need to add Kawhi are overrating them. They overachieved in a season where half the West had a weirdly bad year. Everyone’s talking about Doc Rivers being this master coach, but unless he has prime KG, overachieving with underdog teams seems to be all he really accomplishes. The Celtics let him walk & were fine, while the Lob City era Clippers never once got out of the second round.

Didn't the Raptors get out of the 2nd round just once despite being in the east? It's crazy how one break through (almost lost to Sixers also) and suddenly Raptors can teach everyone how to win lol. They were universally considered a treadmill team and 2nd round fizz out the last few years

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If they were adding Kawhi to the lob city team then you’d have a point.

We were discussing pre Kawhi. So no, not really.

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[Smitson]

Kawhi I’m sure wants more rings but he already has 2, what more does he have to prove?

On the Clippers he would get to play with a top flight guard in Shai and Zubac who could be a top 5 center over the next 10 years. Harrell at the 4 and they could play Jerome Robinson who has all the makings of an ideal two way guard who can shoot and finish at the rim.

With Kawhi they’ll be a 54-59 win team, making the Finals with a starting lineup of

Shai-Robinson-Kawhi-Harrell-Zubac

is possible.

Can I have some of that kool-aid? That team isn’t making the finals with Kawhi’s load management. You guys have to remember, Kawhi can only play in 55-60 regular season games. That roster isn’t going to get a very high seed and will most likely be on the road the entire post season.

[durka]

If Kawhi listed the top 30 things he’s considering as a free agent, I doubt that ‘playing with Shai’ cracks his list. Which isn’t a slight on Shai, just reality. It certainly wouldn’t be as important as ‘how good is your medical staff’ and ‘what are your thoughts on load management.’

Anyways, if he’s always had it in his mind that he’s signing with the Clips and nothing has changed, there isn’t anything else anyone needs to do. I personally think he’s going to sign a 1+1 deal with the Raps while they still have the core together and because they have treated him and his family so well, and then opts out and signs with the Clips long term in 2020. We’ll find out.

I think the move for the Raps is to do what GS was rumored to be planning to offer KD. The 5 year max with the option to be traded to his choice destination whenever he wants. Gives him the chance to run it back and defend his title, long term contract security with his injury history and the chance to go to LA next offseasons if he pleases. If he says no to that there's truly nothing else the raps could have done.

The ‘option to be traded’ sounds great on paper but just doesn’t work In reality for the player. First, it leaves most of the decision making out of the players hands. It’s a verbal arrangement, they don’t get to choose their destination. Second, it strips the team you’re joining of several key assets which doesn’t help them contend.

I mean obviously this would take a level of trust between Kawhi and the organization, I think they've built that though. I have trouble believing he doesn't want to try to repeat with the league being wide open. I also don't think he wants to commit to 5 years in Toronto but wants the long term security with his injury history. Considering what hes done for the team already I don't think anyone would be furious over not getting equal value back when he decides he wants to go home. It would be more of a sending him out for matching salary than any valuable assets considering the Raps wouldnt have any leverage in those negotiations.

[tdotrep2]

Kawhi I’m sure wants more rings but he already has 2, what more does he have to prove?

On the Clippers he would get to play with a top flight guard in Shai and Zubac who could be a top 5 center over the next 10 years. Harrell at the 4 and they could play Jerome Robinson who has all the makings of an ideal two way guard who can shoot and finish at the rim.

With Kawhi they’ll be a 54-59 win team, making the Finals with a starting lineup of

Shai-Robinson-Kawhi-Harrell-Zubac

is possible.

Can I have some of that kool-aid? That team isn’t making the finals with Kawhi’s load management. You guys have to remember, Kawhi can only play in 55-60 regular season games. That roster isn’t going to get a very high seed and will most likely be on the road the entire post season.

zubac couldn't even get pt in the playoffs, "shai" isn't even better than **** van vleet right now... jesus some don't understand how amazing the raptors roster is...

[The_Hater]

I think the move for the Raps is to do what GS was rumored to be planning to offer KD. The 5 year max with the option to be traded to his choice destination whenever he wants. Gives him the chance to run it back and defend his title, long term contract security with his injury history and the chance to go to LA next offseasons if he pleases. If he says no to that there's truly nothing else the raps could have done.

The ‘option to be traded’ sounds great on paper but just doesn’t work In reality for the player. First, it leaves most of the decision making out of the players hands. It’s a verbal arrangement, they don’t get to choose their destination. Second, it strips the team you’re joining of several key assets which doesn’t help them contend.

I mean obviously this would take a level of trust between Kawhi and the organization, I think they've built that though. I have trouble believing he doesn't want to try to repeat with the league being wide open. I also don't think he wants to commit to 5 years in Toronto but wants the long term security with his injury history. Considering what hes done for the team already I don't think anyone would be furious over not getting equal value back when he decides he wants to go home. It would be more of a sending him out for matching salary than any valuable assets considering the Raps wouldnt have any leverage in those negotiations.

I understand the intention of it but if I’m a great player, I just don’t see it as a very good option. You lose a majority of your control.

Heck, If the player just wants the biggest contract he can get with the current team he doesn’t need the trade promise from that team anyways, he just demands a trade as Kawhi, Butler, AD, Irving and PG have all done recently.

[dakomish23]

Him and Ujiri are still getting their statues if they leave, right?

[durka]

The ‘option to be traded’ sounds great on paper but just doesn’t work In reality for the player. First, it leaves most of the decision making out of the players hands. It’s a verbal arrangement, they don’t get to choose their destination. Second, it strips the team you’re joining of several key assets which doesn’t help them contend.

I mean obviously this would take a level of trust between Kawhi and the organization, I think they've built that though. I have trouble believing he doesn't want to try to repeat with the league being wide open. I also don't think he wants to commit to 5 years in Toronto but wants the long term security with his injury history. Considering what hes done for the team already I don't think anyone would be furious over not getting equal value back when he decides he wants to go home. It would be more of a sending him out for matching salary than any valuable assets considering the Raps wouldnt have any leverage in those negotiations.

I understand the intention of it but if I’m a great player, I just don’t see it as a very good option. You lose a majority of your control.

Heck, If the player just wants the biggest contract he can get with the current team he doesn’t need the trade promise from that team anyways, he just demands a trade as Kawhi, Butler, AD, Irving and PG have all done recently.

Obviously Kawhis already shown if he's not happy somewhere he'll demand a trade, but I feel like after the ordeal he went through last year having the team say "here's a bigger contract than anyone else can give you, let's run it back for a year and if you want to go to LA after everyone expires next year we'll go along with it and send you there for minimal assets" might mean something to him. Just based off of his interviews after winning it seems like the he said-she said with the Spurs really bothered him. To know that he can come back one more year with this group he obviously enjoys playing with, make the maximum amount of money and then get his end goal of playing at home in LA without any of the drama he went through last year seems like the best case scenario. Obviously we disagree on whether making that handshake deal is viable, the fact that the Warriors thought it would be with KD gives it some validity in my mind.

[rockmanslim]

One interesting point that Cris Carter said was that Kawhi stayed with San Diego State even after programs from UCLA et al were recruiting him b/c they believed in him before he won the high school state championship. That he could've left for somewhere else, but didn't b/c of that established trust.

Cris Carter also said he believes Kawhi is going the Clippers.

4:11 Cris talks about how he knows Kawhi personally through his agent.

7:24 Cris thinks it's Kawhi to the Clips.

Watch on YouTube

[madmaxmedia]

I don’t think the offer to facilitate a trade request means much, since superstars seem to be able to use their weight pretty well regardless.

He’s been in Toronto a year and is now familiar with being there, whatever his choice is it’s gonna be the place he thinks he will be happiest the next 4-5 years. If he wants to play in Toronto he’s not worrying about wanting to move, if he wants to play in LA he’s not gonna sign with the Raptors to move in 2 years. It’s all too much drama to go through anyway again.

[madmaxmedia]

Clippers won 48 games with a bunch of role players and specifically lacking that big star wing, and went through big upheaval at the trade deadline. They’re winning 55-60 games with Kawhi even with load management (significant injuries would change that of course.)