We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player"

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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#21 » by clyde21 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:49 pm

CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
Richard Miller wrote:Good point. How many 2-way players would anyone take before Harden or Curry?



and Harden and Steph ARE two way players...its not like they leave the court and sit on the bench when it's a defensive possession. The concept itself doesnt make sense

there is such a thing as team defense, which a lot of people don't seem to understand
To be a two-way player you have to be a good defender, Harden and Steph aren't good defenders so they aren't two-way players

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Steph is a great help defender and Harden actually can man up when hes locked in on that end...you dont have to be andre Roberson defensively to play defense
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#22 » by CobyWhiteDaGoat » Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:52 pm

clyde21 wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
clyde21 wrote:

and Harden and Steph ARE two way players...its not like they leave the court and sit on the bench when it's a defensive possession. The concept itself doesnt make sense

there is such a thing as team defense, which a lot of people don't seem to understand
To be a two-way player you have to be a good defender, Harden and Steph aren't good defenders so they aren't two-way players

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Steph is a great help defender and Harden actually can man up when hes locked in on that end...you dont have to be andre Roberson defensively to play defense
Did you just call Steph a great help defender . Also, Harden has the potential to be a good defender but he's almost never locked in on that end

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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player" 

Post#23 » by WeTheNorth123 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:52 pm

stepic wrote:
Richard Miller wrote:Good point. How many 2-way players would anyone take before Harden or Curry?


I’d take Kawhi over either of those players.


no question about it....im not even being bias right now

he is just efficient
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#24 » by clyde21 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:58 pm

CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:To be a two-way player you have to be a good defender, Harden and Steph aren't good defenders so they aren't two-way players

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Steph is a great help defender and Harden actually can man up when hes locked in on that end...you dont have to be andre Roberson defensively to play defense
Did you just call Steph a great help defender . Also, Harden has the potential to be a good defender but he's almost never locked in on that end

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uhh, yes I did...and u do know he led the league in steals twice? or is that not defense?
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player" 

Post#25 » by YogurtProducer » Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:02 pm

Two anchors? Completely ignores the man whose better than both on both sides of the ball and eliminated them both
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#26 » by CobyWhiteDaGoat » Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:04 pm

clyde21 wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
clyde21 wrote:

Steph is a great help defender and Harden actually can man up when hes locked in on that end...you dont have to be andre Roberson defensively to play defense
Did you just call Steph a great help defender . Also, Harden has the potential to be a good defender but he's almost never locked in on that end

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uhh, yes I did...and u do know he led the league in steals twice? or is that not defense?
Both of those guys are average defenders at best. There's a reason their teams try to hide them on defense.

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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#27 » by clyde21 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:09 pm

CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:Did you just call Steph a great help defender . Also, Harden has the potential to be a good defender but he's almost never locked in on that end

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uhh, yes I did...and u do know he led the league in steals twice? or is that not defense?
Both of those guys are average defenders at best. There's a reason their teams try to hide them on defense.

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so average defenders dont qualify as two way players?
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#28 » by CobyWhiteDaGoat » Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:11 pm

clyde21 wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
uhh, yes I did...and u do know he led the league in steals twice? or is that not defense?
Both of those guys are average defenders at best. There's a reason their teams try to hide them on defense.

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so average defenders dont qualify as two way players?
You have to be a good defender imo

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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#29 » by ellobo » Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:33 pm

CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:To be a two-way player you have to be a good defender, Harden and Steph aren't good defenders so they aren't two-way players

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Steph is a great help defender and Harden actually can man up when hes locked in on that end...you dont have to be andre Roberson defensively to play defense
Did you just call Steph a great help defender . Also, Harden has the potential to be a good defender but he's almost never locked in on that end

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Last season Harden was 90th percentile in the whole league in post defense. In 212 tracked possessions he held opposing post players to .68ppp on 37.8efg% and forced a turnover 21% of the time. In isolation defense, he was 71st percentile.

You can "hide" Harden on a post player and not get hurt. You can switch Harden onto a big in the pick and roll and not get hurt. It was part of Houston's defensive strategy to get him matched up on a big as many possessions as possible. And it was comical last year watching opponents try to exploit "mismatches" with Harden on a big, only to have him get a steal, deflection, or force a low percentage shot.
Just because it happened to you, doesn't make it interesting.

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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player" 

Post#30 » by og15 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:34 pm

I always thought the idea of highlighting two way player is a short form for two way impact player. So it is a player that has good to great impact both on offense and on defense. I don’t really hear people calling Gobert a two way player because he gives you great defense and decent enough offense for a C, or guys who are great on offense and passable on defense.

Like I said earlier though, never heard of the idea that a two way player is twice as good as a guy who is primarily impacting on on side of the court.
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#31 » by clyde21 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:36 pm

CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:Both of those guys are average defenders at best. There's a reason their teams try to hide them on defense.

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so average defenders dont qualify as two way players?
You have to be a good defender imo

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that's nonsense.
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#32 » by CobyWhiteDaGoat » Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:36 pm

ellobo wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
clyde21 wrote:

Steph is a great help defender and Harden actually can man up when hes locked in on that end...you dont have to be andre Roberson defensively to play defense
Did you just call Steph a great help defender . Also, Harden has the potential to be a good defender but he's almost never locked in on that end

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Last season Harden was 90th percentile in the whole league in post defense. In 212 tracked possessions he held opposing post players to .68ppp on 37.8efg% and forced a turnover 21% of the time. In isolation defense, he was 71st percentile.
I'd rather have my guard be good at perimeter defense

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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#33 » by ellobo » Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:39 pm

CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
ellobo wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:Did you just call Steph a great help defender . Also, Harden has the potential to be a good defender but he's almost never locked in on that end

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Last season Harden was 90th percentile in the whole league in post defense. In 212 tracked possessions he held opposing post players to .68ppp on 37.8efg% and forced a turnover 21% of the time. In isolation defense, he was 71st percentile.
I'd rather have my guard be good at perimeter defense

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71st percentile in isolation is not good?

I also edited the post you quoted to add:
You can "hide" Harden on a post player and not get hurt. You can switch Harden onto a big in the pick and roll and not get hurt. It was part of Houston's defensive strategy to get him matched up on a big as many possessions as possible. And it was comical last year watching opponents try to exploit "mismatches" with Harden on a big, only to have him get a steal, deflection, or force a low percentage shot.


A perimeter player who can't be exploited in the post is a defensive weapon.
Just because it happened to you, doesn't make it interesting.

In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.

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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#34 » by clyde21 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:40 pm

CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
ellobo wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:Did you just call Steph a great help defender . Also, Harden has the potential to be a good defender but he's almost never locked in on that end

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Last season Harden was 90th percentile in the whole league in post defense. In 212 tracked possessions he held opposing post players to .68ppp on 37.8efg% and forced a turnover 21% of the time. In isolation defense, he was 71st percentile.
I'd rather have my guard be good at perimeter defense

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is Klay Thompson better than Steph because he's considered a 'two player'?
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#35 » by CobyWhiteDaGoat » Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:40 pm

clyde21 wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
so average defenders dont qualify as two way players?
You have to be a good defender imo

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that's nonsense.
If the only qualification to be a two-way player is to be an average defender then most of the league would be two-way players

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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#36 » by CobyWhiteDaGoat » Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:41 pm

clyde21 wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
ellobo wrote:Last season Harden was 90th percentile in the whole league in post defense. In 212 tracked possessions he held opposing post players to .68ppp on 37.8efg% and forced a turnover 21% of the time. In isolation defense, he was 71st percentile.
I'd rather have my guard be good at perimeter defense

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is Klay Thompson better than Steph because he's considered a 'two player'?
I never said that

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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#37 » by CobyWhiteDaGoat » Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:48 pm

ellobo wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
ellobo wrote:Last season Harden was 90th percentile in the whole league in post defense. In 212 tracked possessions he held opposing post players to .68ppp on 37.8efg% and forced a turnover 21% of the time. In isolation defense, he was 71st percentile.
I'd rather have my guard be good at perimeter defense

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71st percentile in isolation is not good?

I also edited the post you quoted to add:
You can "hide" Harden on a post player and not get hurt. You can switch Harden onto a big in the pick and roll and not get hurt. It was part of Houston's defensive strategy to get him matched up on a big as many possessions as possible. And it was comical last year watching opponents try to exploit "mismatches" with Harden on a big, only to have him get a steal, deflection, or force a low percentage shot.


A perimeter player who can't be exploited in the post is a defensive weapon.
I'm not trying to call Harden a bad defender, I just feel like he's not a good enough defender to be considered a two-way player. Also, how many of those iso possessions are in the post?

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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#38 » by clyde21 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:57 pm

CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:You have to be a good defender imo

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that's nonsense.
If the only qualification to be a two-way player is to be an average defender then most of the league would be two-way players

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yes, that's why it's a stupid designation.
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#39 » by clyde21 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:57 pm

CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:I'd rather have my guard be good at perimeter defense

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is Klay Thompson better than Steph because he's considered a 'two player'?
I never said that

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but is Steph only plays on one side, and Thompson plays on two sides, wouldn't that make Thompson better? :-?

again, stupid label. doesn't make any sense. It's the type of crap Max Kellerman says.
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#40 » by CobyWhiteDaGoat » Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:58 pm

clyde21 wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
that's nonsense.
If the only qualification to be a two-way player is to be an average defender then most of the league would be two-way players

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yes, that's why it's a stupid designation.
Which is why the qualification to be a two-way player should be to be a good defender.

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