We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player"

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ellobo
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#41 » by ellobo » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:01 pm

CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:I'm not trying to call Harden a bad defender

CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:To be a two-way player you have to be a good defender, Harden and Steph aren't good defenders so they aren't two-way players

Okay, if you want to say that "not good" is not the same as "bad," then you didn't say he was bad.

CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:Also, how many of those iso possessions are in the post?

AFAIK, the Synergy Sports playtype categories are mutually exclusive, so none of them. That 71st percentile is based on 157 tracked iso possessions. The numbers come from the tracking stats on NBA.com.
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#42 » by CobyWhiteDaGoat » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:01 pm

clyde21 wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
is Klay Thompson better than Steph because he's considered a 'two player'?
I never said that

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but is Steph only plays on one side, and Thompson plays on two sides, wouldn't that make Thompson better? :-?

again, stupid label. doesn't make any sense. It's the type of crap Max Kellerman says.
But the impact Steph makes on the offensive side of the ball makes up for his defense. Klay doesn't make anywhere near the impact Steph does

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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#43 » by CobyWhiteDaGoat » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:06 pm

ellobo wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:I'm not trying to call Harden a bad defender

CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:To be a two-way player you have to be a good defender, Harden and Steph aren't good defenders so they aren't two-way players

Okay, if you want to say that "not good" is not the same as "bad," then you didn't say he was bad..


I think defenders should be put in tiers

Very bad
Bad
Below average
Average
Above average
Good
Very good
Elite

I would say Harden is average

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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#44 » by clyde21 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:08 pm

CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:If the only qualification to be a two-way player is to be an average defender then most of the league would be two-way players

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yes, that's why it's a stupid designation.
Which is why the qualification to be a two-way player should be to be a good defender.

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no, which is why it's a stupid designation...do you think guys like Steph just step off the court or something when it's a defensive possession? they're playing defense. rotating. providing help. getting steals, etc. It's completely nonsensical label.
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#45 » by clyde21 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:09 pm

CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:I never said that

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but is Steph only plays on one side, and Thompson plays on two sides, wouldn't that make Thompson better? :-?

again, stupid label. doesn't make any sense. It's the type of crap Max Kellerman says.
But the impact Steph makes on the offensive side of the ball makes up for his defense. Klay doesn't make anywhere near the impact Steph does

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how is that possible if Klay plays two sides and Steph plays 'one side'?

almost as if it's a completely meaningless designation,huh?
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#46 » by CobyWhiteDaGoat » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:14 pm

clyde21 wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
yes, that's why it's a stupid designation.
Which is why the qualification to be a two-way player should be to be a good defender.

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no, which is why it's a stupid designation...do you think guys like Steph just step off the court or something when it's a defensive possession? they're playing defense. rotating. providing help. getting steals, etc. It's completely nonsensical label.


Well of course he's playing defense, he's just not making a big enough impact on the defensive end of the floor to be considered a two-way player. Two-way players are players who are good both offensively and defensively, nothing nonsensical about it.

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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#47 » by clyde21 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:17 pm

CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:Which is why the qualification to be a two-way player should be to be a good defender.

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no, which is why it's a stupid designation...do you think guys like Steph just step off the court or something when it's a defensive possession? they're playing defense. rotating. providing help. getting steals, etc. It's completely nonsensical label.


Well of course he's playing defense, he's just not making a big enough impact on the defensive end of the floor to be considered a two-way player. Two-way players are players who are good both offensively and defensively, nothing nonsensical about it.

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based on what? you do know it's Steph that is a two time steals leader, not Klay, right? to act like he's not making an impact as if he's not even on the floor is nonsensical.

again, this is a useless label, it's used to prop up players who are really not as good as people want them to be.
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#48 » by CobyWhiteDaGoat » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:17 pm

clyde21 wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
but is Steph only plays on one side, and Thompson plays on two sides, wouldn't that make Thompson better? :-?

again, stupid label. doesn't make any sense. It's the type of crap Max Kellerman says.
But the impact Steph makes on the offensive side of the ball makes up for his defense. Klay doesn't make anywhere near the impact Steph does

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how is that possible if Klay plays two sides and Steph plays 'one side'?

almost as if it's a completely meaningless designation,huh?
You're putting words in my mouth. I never said Steph only plays one side, I just said he doesn't make a big impact on defense. He's still an average defender.

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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#49 » by clyde21 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:18 pm

CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:But the impact Steph makes on the offensive side of the ball makes up for his defense. Klay doesn't make anywhere near the impact Steph does

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how is that possible if Klay plays two sides and Steph plays 'one side'?

almost as if it's a completely meaningless designation,huh?
You're putting words in my mouth. I never said Steph only plays one side, I just said he doesn't make a big impact on defense. He's still an average defender.

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so he 'plays both sides' but isn't a 'two-way player'?

im just trying to understand the logic really
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player" 

Post#50 » by Baski » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:20 pm

ellobo wrote:
abark wrote:Where you set the bar for how good the player has to be on offense and defense is arbitrary. The definition of a "two way player" could vary anywhere from superstar on both ends to merely being a net positive on both ends.

Who says Pascal Siakam isn't a two way player? He's very clearly a net positive player on both ends by any metric.

Who determined where the cutoff was for this term that became popular pretty recently?


+1.

It's a vague term with no specific or widely accepted definition, other than a guy who is generally "good" (however you define "good") on both sides of the ball, whether it's an offensive star who is also at least a competent defender, or a player who is known for defense but is also a competent offensive player. I've never understood it (or seen it used) to mean that a player provides equal value on offense and defense.

Getting outraged because people don't define the term like you (the OP) do is misguided, and demanding that other people should adopt your definition is pointless.

You're putting in too much effort. It's pretty obvious this is a Curry-motivated thread as one of the knocks on him is that he doesn't play "enough" defense. So all you have to do is discredit guys whose two-way play is seen as more valuable than Curry's one-way play and voila, narrative debunked.
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player" 

Post#51 » by zimpy27 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:22 pm

two-way player is someone that is a positive on offense and defense.

A great two-way player can get their shots off from isolation and can shut down the oppositions best scoring avenue.
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#52 » by CobyWhiteDaGoat » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:23 pm

clyde21 wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
no, which is why it's a stupid designation...do you think guys like Steph just step off the court or something when it's a defensive possession? they're playing defense. rotating. providing help. getting steals, etc. It's completely nonsensical label.


Well of course he's playing defense, he's just not making a big enough impact on the defensive end of the floor to be considered a two-way player. Two-way players are players who are good both offensively and defensively, nothing nonsensical about it.

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based on what? you do know it's Steph that is a two time steals leader, not Klay, right? to act like he's not making an impact as if he's not even on the floor is nonsensical.

again, this is a useless label, it's used to prop up players who are really not as good as people want them to be.


Defense isn't only about getting steals. Defense is about staying in front of your man, fighting through screens, making the correct rotations, communicating with your teammates, etc. Steph is good at some of these areas but he's lacking in others. Anyone who watches basketball can see he doesn't make a lot of positive impact on defense.

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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#53 » by clyde21 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:24 pm

CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
Well of course he's playing defense, he's just not making a big enough impact on the defensive end of the floor to be considered a two-way player. Two-way players are players who are good both offensively and defensively, nothing nonsensical about it.

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based on what? you do know it's Steph that is a two time steals leader, not Klay, right? to act like he's not making an impact as if he's not even on the floor is nonsensical.

again, this is a useless label, it's used to prop up players who are really not as good as people want them to be.


Defense isn't only about getting steals. Defense is about staying in front of your man, fighting through screens, making the correct rotations, communicating with your teammates, etc. Steph is good at some of these areas but he's lacking in others. Anyone who watches basketball can see he doesn't make a lot of positive impact on defense.

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yes, Steph is good in some of those areas, not not so good in some others area...he's still playing defense. he's still having impact both ways. it's not like 'one-way players' just stand there like a cone because 'one-way players'.

also guess what, there are some things Klay does offensive well, but he's also really **** at other things, like offensive rebounding, passing, handling, running offense...why are you saying he's a two-way player in this case?
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#54 » by CobyWhiteDaGoat » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:26 pm

clyde21 wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
how is that possible if Klay plays two sides and Steph plays 'one side'?

almost as if it's a completely meaningless designation,huh?
You're putting words in my mouth. I never said Steph only plays one side, I just said he doesn't make a big impact on defense. He's still an average defender.

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so he 'plays both sides' but isn't a 'two-way player'?

im just trying to understand the logic really


You can play try on defense without actually making a big impact. It's not that hard to understand

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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#55 » by CobyWhiteDaGoat » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:28 pm

clyde21 wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
based on what? you do know it's Steph that is a two time steals leader, not Klay, right? to act like he's not making an impact as if he's not even on the floor is nonsensical.

again, this is a useless label, it's used to prop up players who are really not as good as people want them to be.


Defense isn't only about getting steals. Defense is about staying in front of your man, fighting through screens, making the correct rotations, communicating with your teammates, etc. Steph is good at some of these areas but he's lacking in others. Anyone who watches basketball can see he doesn't make a lot of positive impact on defense.

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yes, Steph is good in some of those areas, not not so good in some others area...he's still playing defense. he's still having impact both ways. it's not like 'one-way players' just stand there like a cone because 'one-way players'.


I never said Steph doesn't make any impact. I said he doesn't make a big enough impact to be considered a two-way player

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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#56 » by CobyWhiteDaGoat » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:31 pm

clyde21 wrote:]

also guess what, there are some things Klay does offensive well, but he's also really **** at other things, like offensive rebounding, passing, handling, running offense...why are you saying he's a two-way player in this case?


Klay averaged 21 points a game this season, I think it's safe to say he makes a big enough offensive impact to be considered a two-way player.

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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#57 » by ellobo » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:34 pm

CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
ellobo wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:I'm not trying to call Harden a bad defender

CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:To be a two-way player you have to be a good defender, Harden and Steph aren't good defenders so they aren't two-way players

Okay, if you want to say that "not good" is not the same as "bad," then you didn't say he was bad..


I think defenders should be put in tiers

Very bad
Bad
Below average
Average
Above average
Good
Very good
Elite

I would say Harden is average

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Okay, here are Harden's stats for each playtype listed with defensive stats (percentiles are based on ppp allowed as the primary defender):
Post up: 90th percentile (20% of possessions)
Isolation: 71st percentile (15% of possessions)
PnR ballhandler: 75th percentile (14% of possessions)
PnR roll man: 82nd percentile (2.6% of possessions)
Spot up shooter: 52nd percentile (30% of possessions)
Off screen: 79th percentile (5% of possessions)
Off handoff: 96th pecentile (5% of possessions)

Is that the profile of an "average" defender?
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player" 

Post#58 » by Patches Perry » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:34 pm

The worst thing about "two way player" label is that implication that defense at an individual level is as important as offense at an individual level.

Its also generally used against transcendent offensive players who are thought to be less capable defensively by most. In that case, defense can be weaponized against them in a way thats difficult to validate or dispute because individual value defensively is very difficult to quantify.
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#59 » by clyde21 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:35 pm

CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
clyde21 wrote:]

also guess what, there are some things Klay does offensive well, but he's also really **** at other things, like offensive rebounding, passing, handling, running offense...why are you saying he's a two-way player in this case?


Klay averaged 21 points a game this season, I think it's safe to say he makes a big enough offensive impact to be considered a two-way player.

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so it's just about points? you said Steph shouldn't be considered a two-player because there are some things he doesn't do well defensively.

there are things that Klay doesn't do well offensively...like, as I just said, handling, passing, creating offense, offensive rebounding, etc...does that mean he shouldn't be considered an offensive player?
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#60 » by clyde21 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:36 pm

CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
Defense isn't only about getting steals. Defense is about staying in front of your man, fighting through screens, making the correct rotations, communicating with your teammates, etc. Steph is good at some of these areas but he's lacking in others. Anyone who watches basketball can see he doesn't make a lot of positive impact on defense.

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yes, Steph is good in some of those areas, not not so good in some others area...he's still playing defense. he's still having impact both ways. it's not like 'one-way players' just stand there like a cone because 'one-way players'.


I never said Steph doesn't make any impact. I said he doesn't make a big enough impact to be considered a two-way player

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based on what? this isn't based on anything. where is the threshold? how good do you have to be?

again, going back to the Thompson comparison...what Klay can do offensively at a high level is catch and shoot really...everything else he's average or sub-par...why is he considered an offensive player if Steph can't be considered a defensive player?

also, team level defense > individual defense.
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