We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player"

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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player" 

Post#61 » by clyde21 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:38 pm

Patches Perry wrote:The worst thing about "two way player" label is that implication that defense at an individual level is as important as offense at an individual level.

Its also generally used against transcendent offensive players who are thought to be less capable defensively by most. In that case, defense can be weaponized against them in a way thats difficult to validate or dispute because individual value defensively is very difficult to quantify.


bingo.

it's why despite being a better individual defender than Steph, Klay will never, ever, have Steph's overall impact. it just doesn't add up that way.
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#62 » by CobyWhiteDaGoat » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:40 pm

clyde21 wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
yes, Steph is good in some of those areas, not not so good in some others area...he's still playing defense. he's still having impact both ways. it's not like 'one-way players' just stand there like a cone because 'one-way players'.


I never said Steph doesn't make any impact. I said he doesn't make a big enough impact to be considered a two-way player

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based on what? this isn't based on anything. where is the threshold? how good do you have to be?

again, going back to the Thompson comparison...what Klay can do offensively at a high level is catch and shoot really...everything else he's average or sub-par...why is he considered an offensive player if Steph can't be considered a defensive player?

also, team level defense > individual defense.


Klay is considered an offensive player because his elite shooting makes up for other areas he's lacking in. Steph isn't elite at anything defensively.

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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#63 » by CobyWhiteDaGoat » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:42 pm

ellobo wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
ellobo wrote:
Okay, if you want to say that "not good" is not the same as "bad," then you didn't say he was bad..


I think defenders should be put in tiers

Very bad
Bad
Below average
Average
Above average
Good
Very good
Elite

I would say Harden is average

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Okay, here are Harden's stats for each playtype listed with defensive stats (percentiles are based on ppp allowed as the primary defender):
Post up: 90th percentile (20% of possessions)
Isolation: 71st percentile (15% of possessions)
PnR ballhandler: 75th percentile (14% of possessions)
PnR roll man: 82nd percentile (2.6% of possessions)
Spot up shooter: 52nd percentile (30% of possessions)
Off screen: 79th percentile (5% of possessions)
Off handoff: 96th pecentile (5% of possessions)

Is that the profile of an "average" defender?
If Harden is such a good defensive player then why doesn't he guard the other team's best offensive players?

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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#64 » by The_Hater » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:42 pm

CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
ellobo wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:I'm not trying to call Harden a bad defender

CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:To be a two-way player you have to be a good defender, Harden and Steph aren't good defenders so they aren't two-way players

Okay, if you want to say that "not good" is not the same as "bad," then you didn't say he was bad..


I think defenders should be put in tiers

Very bad
Bad
Below average
Average
Above average
Good
Very good
Elite

I would say Harden is average

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The biggest problem with grading defenders is there are so many different factors to good defense but most fans just recognize good 1 on 1 defense.

Transition defense is extremely important and grossly underrated by most fans. But it’s also very difficult to grade in players. Bigs being able to defend the Rim, the PnR and the arc. Players being able to switch and guard bigger/smaller players effectively. Team defense and rotating. Effort is probably the most underrated factor in good defense.

I think just sticking them in your above categories might miss a lot of things.
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#65 » by clyde21 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:44 pm

CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
I never said Steph doesn't make any impact. I said he doesn't make a big enough impact to be considered a two-way player

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based on what? this isn't based on anything. where is the threshold? how good do you have to be?

again, going back to the Thompson comparison...what Klay can do offensively at a high level is catch and shoot really...everything else he's average or sub-par...why is he considered an offensive player if Steph can't be considered a defensive player?

also, team level defense > individual defense.


Klay is considered an offensive player because his elite shooting makes up for other areas he's lacking in. Steph isn't elite at anything defensively.

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What is Klay elite at defensively?

so you can be crappy at everything but be elite at ONE thing on side and be considered for it?

Tristan Thompson is an elite offensive rebounder...should he be considered a two-way player?
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#66 » by ellobo » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:47 pm

CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
ellobo wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
I think defenders should be put in tiers

Very bad
Bad
Below average
Average
Above average
Good
Very good
Elite

I would say Harden is average

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Okay, here are Harden's stats for each playtype listed with defensive stats (percentiles are based on ppp allowed as the primary defender):
Post up: 90th percentile (20% of possessions)
Isolation: 71st percentile (15% of possessions)
PnR ballhandler: 75th percentile (14% of possessions)
PnR roll man: 82nd percentile (2.6% of possessions)
Spot up shooter: 52nd percentile (30% of possessions)
Off screen: 79th percentile (5% of possessions)
Off handoff: 96th pecentile (5% of possessions)

Is that the profile of an "average" defender?
If Harden is such a good defensive player then why doesn't he guard the other team's best offensive players?

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Um...because he carries a greater offensive workload than any other player in the league, and to reduce the risk of foul trouble since he's so important offensively. Just guessing here...
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#67 » by CobyWhiteDaGoat » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:47 pm

clyde21 wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
based on what? this isn't based on anything. where is the threshold? how good do you have to be?

again, going back to the Thompson comparison...what Klay can do offensively at a high level is catch and shoot really...everything else he's average or sub-par...why is he considered an offensive player if Steph can't be considered a defensive player?

also, team level defense > individual defense.


Klay is considered an offensive player because his elite shooting makes up for other areas he's lacking in. Steph isn't elite at anything defensively.

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What is Klay elite at defensively?

so you can be crappy at everything but be elite at ONE thing on side and be considered for it?

Tristan Thompson is an elite offensive rebounder...should he be considered a two-way player?
Nothing, but, unlike Steph, he doesn't have any weaknesses defensively and is above average at just about everything defensively. That makes him a good defender.

Klay does have some weaknesses offensively but he's not "Crappy at everything

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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#68 » by CobyWhiteDaGoat » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:48 pm

ellobo wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
ellobo wrote:
Okay, here are Harden's stats for each playtype listed with defensive stats (percentiles are based on ppp allowed as the primary defender):
Post up: 90th percentile (20% of possessions)
Isolation: 71st percentile (15% of possessions)
PnR ballhandler: 75th percentile (14% of possessions)
PnR roll man: 82nd percentile (2.6% of possessions)
Spot up shooter: 52nd percentile (30% of possessions)
Off screen: 79th percentile (5% of possessions)
Off handoff: 96th pecentile (5% of possessions)

Is that the profile of an "average" defender?
If Harden is such a good defensive player then why doesn't he guard the other team's best offensive players?

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Um...because he carries a greater offensive workload than any other player in the league, and to reduce the risk of foul trouble since he's so important offensively. Just guessing here...
Okay fair point you got me there

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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#69 » by ellobo » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:56 pm

CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
Klay is considered an offensive player because his elite shooting makes up for other areas he's lacking in. Steph isn't elite at anything defensively.

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What is Klay elite at defensively?

so you can be crappy at everything but be elite at ONE thing on side and be considered for it?

Tristan Thompson is an elite offensive rebounder...should he be considered a two-way player?
Nothing, but, unlike Steph, he doesn't have any weaknesses defensively and is above average at just about everything defensively. That makes him a good defender.

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BTW, here are Klay's Synergy Sports defensive ratings compared to Harden:

Post up: 82nd percentile (9% of possessions) Harden: 90th percentile (20% of possessions)
Isolation: 53rd percentile (11% of possessions) Harden: 71st percentile (15% of possessions)
PnR ballhandler: 90th percentile (35% of possessions) Harden: 75th percentile (14% of possessions)
PnR roll man: 73red percentile (1.4% of posssessions) Harden: 82nd percentile (2.6% of possessions)
Spot up shooter: 66th percentile (20% of possessions) Harden: 52nd percentile (30% of possessions)
Off screen: 49th percentile (8% of possessions) Harden: 79th percentile (5% of possessions)
Off handoff: 24.6th percentile (11% of possessions) Harden: 96th pecentile (5% of possessions)

Lesson: Run lots of handoffs at Klay.
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player" 

Post#70 » by Pg81 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:58 pm

ellobo wrote:
abark wrote:Where you set the bar for how good the player has to be on offense and defense is arbitrary. The definition of a "two way player" could vary anywhere from superstar on both ends to merely being a net positive on both ends.

Who says Pascal Siakam isn't a two way player? He's very clearly a net positive player on both ends by any metric.

Who determined where the cutoff was for this term that became popular pretty recently?


+1.

It's a vague term with no specific or widely accepted definition, other than a guy who is generally "good" (however you define "good") on both sides of the ball, whether it's an offensive star who is also at least a competent defender, or a player who is known for defense but is also a competent offensive player. I've never understood it (or seen it used) to mean that a player provides equal value on offense and defense.

Getting outraged because people don't define the term like you (the OP) do is misguided, and demanding that other people should adopt your definition is pointless.


So Dirk Nowitzki was actually a two way player during the second half of his prime. Glad to clear that up finally.
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#71 » by clyde21 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:02 pm

CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
Klay is considered an offensive player because his elite shooting makes up for other areas he's lacking in. Steph isn't elite at anything defensively.

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What is Klay elite at defensively?

so you can be crappy at everything but be elite at ONE thing on side and be considered for it?

Tristan Thompson is an elite offensive rebounder...should he be considered a two-way player?
Nothing, but, unlike Steph, he doesn't have any weaknesses defensively and is above average at just about everything defensively. That makes him a good defender.

Klay does have some weaknesses offensively but he's not "Crappy at everything

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Klay has a LOT of weaknesses offensively, come on.
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#72 » by CobyWhiteDaGoat » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:02 pm

ellobo wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
What is Klay elite at defensively?

so you can be crappy at everything but be elite at ONE thing on side and be considered for it?

Tristan Thompson is an elite offensive rebounder...should he be considered a two-way player?
Nothing, but, unlike Steph, he doesn't have any weaknesses defensively and is above average at just about everything defensively. That makes him a good defender.

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BTW, here are Klay's Synergy Sports defensive ratings compared to Harden:

Post up: 82nd percentile (9% of possessions) Harden: 90th percentile (20% of possessions)
Isolation: 53rd percentile (11% of possessions) Harden: 71st percentile (15% of possessions)
PnR ballhandler: 90th percentile (35% of possessions) Harden: 75th percentile (14% of possessions)
PnR roll man: 73red percentile (1.4% of posssessions) Harden: 82nd percentile (2.6% of possessions)
Spot up shooter: 66th percntile (20% of possessions) Harden: 52nd percentile (30% of possessions)
Off screen: 49th percentile (8% of possessions) Harden: 79th percentile (5% of possessions)
Off handoff: 24.6th percentile (11% of possessions) Harden: 96th pecentile (5% of possessions)

Lesson: Run lots of handoffs at Klay.
Of course some of Klay's stats are going to look worse. He's guarding way better players than Harden

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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#73 » by ellobo » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:04 pm

Double post
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player" 

Post#74 » by clyde21 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:04 pm

i mean, people should understand why Kawhi no longer is as good defensively as he was three years ago...it's natural with more responsibility offensively to not be as good defensively

Klay, for example, his only real responsibility offensively is to catch and shoot..he's not grabbing boards, he's not running offense, he's not handling...so it's much easier to play defense in that aspect

this whole two-way player thing is just bad narrative...weak analysis perpetuated by Max Kellerman types because they can't dig any deeper
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#75 » by ellobo » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:07 pm

Double post (sorry -- I keep hitting submit instead of preview)
Just because it happened to you, doesn't make it interesting.

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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#76 » by CobyWhiteDaGoat » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:07 pm

clyde21 wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
What is Klay elite at defensively?

so you can be crappy at everything but be elite at ONE thing on side and be considered for it?

Tristan Thompson is an elite offensive rebounder...should he be considered a two-way player?
Nothing, but, unlike Steph, he doesn't have any weaknesses defensively and is above average at just about everything defensively. That makes him a good defender.

Klay does have some weaknesses offensively but he's not "Crappy at everything

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Klay has a LOT of weaknesses offensively, come on.
There are 3 things a guard needs to be good at offensively imo

Shooting
Passing
Ball handling

Klay isn't good at passing or ball handling but he isn't "crappy" and his elite shooting makes up for those weaknesses

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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#77 » by clyde21 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:09 pm

CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:Nothing, but, unlike Steph, he doesn't have any weaknesses defensively and is above average at just about everything defensively. That makes him a good defender.

Klay does have some weaknesses offensively but he's not "Crappy at everything

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Klay has a LOT of weaknesses offensively, come on.
There are 3 things a guard needs to be good at offensively imo

Shooting
Passing
Ball handling

Klay isn't good at passing or ball handling but he isn't "crappy" and his elite shooting makes up for those weaknesses

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no, Klay is a straight crappy ball handler for a SG, way below average.

and there a lot more aspects to offense than that.
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player" 

Post#78 » by XxIronChainzxX » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:10 pm

clyde21 wrote:
Patches Perry wrote:The worst thing about "two way player" label is that implication that defense at an individual level is as important as offense at an individual level.

Its also generally used against transcendent offensive players who are thought to be less capable defensively by most. In that case, defense can be weaponized against them in a way thats difficult to validate or dispute because individual value defensively is very difficult to quantify.


bingo.

it's why despite being a better individual defender than Steph, Klay will never, ever, have Steph's overall impact. it just doesn't add up that way.


The problem with this criticism is that it takes transcendent offensive talent to overcome poor defense. Curry isn't a bad defender, but his offensive is on another level; he's one of the greatest offensive players of all time. And while a very different player, the same is true about Harden. When you're a top 5 or 10 all time offensive player, you can be a top 5 guy and be utter **** at defense. That isn't true when your offense is at Klay's level.

If Klay was the positional equivalent of Enes Kanter, the Dubs probably never win a title.
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#79 » by ellobo » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:12 pm

CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
ellobo wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:Nothing, but, unlike Steph, he doesn't have any weaknesses defensively and is above average at just about everything defensively. That makes him a good defender.

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BTW, here are Klay's Synergy Sports defensive ratings compared to Harden:

Post up: 82nd percentile (9% of possessions) Harden: 90th percentile (20% of possessions)
Isolation: 53rd percentile (11% of possessions) Harden: 71st percentile (15% of possessions)
PnR ballhandler: 90th percentile (35% of possessions) Harden: 75th percentile (14% of possessions)
PnR roll man: 73red percentile (1.4% of posssessions) Harden: 82nd percentile (2.6% of possessions)
Spot up shooter: 66th percntile (20% of possessions) Harden: 52nd percentile (30% of possessions)
Off screen: 49th percentile (8% of possessions) Harden: 79th percentile (5% of possessions)
Off handoff: 24.6th percentile (11% of possessions) Harden: 96th pecentile (5% of possessions)

Lesson: Run lots of handoffs at Klay.
Of course some of Klay's stats are going to look worse. He's guarding way better players than Harden

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Not trying to criticize Klay's defense overall (90th percentile guarding the PnR handler on 35% of his possessions is very impressive). More pointing out that Harden's defense (at least this year) is very good and very underappreciated.[/quote]
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player" 

Post#80 » by oaktownwarriors87 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:21 pm

The term is only used to take a shot at someone else

When they claim Klay Thomopson is the best two way SG the they're really just saying guys like Harden don't play any defense.
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