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We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player"

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:59 pm
by freethedevil
When people say someone is a "two way player", the implication is that their defence is good enough that it's offers nearly the value of an elite offensive player, The line of argumentation here is that "this player x is two way", so therefore even if he isnt' as good as player y offensively, his defence makes him near 2x. Lets get something clear., Unless you are the defensive anchor for a team, iow, you are the priamry rim protector and deterrent in the paint, your defensive value is a tiny fraction of an offensive superstar's offensive value.

There are two offensive superstars these playoffs that also serve as defensive anchors:
->Joel Embid
-> Giannis

Giannis aside from being switchable on the perimiter is the second most frequent rim protector in the league behind the clear dpoy rudy gobert. Embid narrowly trails him.

If you're using the "two way player label" for anyone else here, you're using it wrong. kawhi's defensive pipm as a strong man defender is a whopping 0.6 Durant's in 2019 is a whopping 0.3. For comparison,Giannis's is 3.6 and Stephen "he's too short" curry is 0.8. Now even if I'm extremely generous and chalk up that disparity in defensive impact metrics to "the warriors hide him defensively"(because being able to defend smalls, and force turnovers with speed, and turn attackers into help is useless i guess), there is no way in hell you can argue either of these defenders is significant enough of a defender for them to be mentioned in the same sentence as a giannis, a draymond green, a gobert, or an embid.

The ability to be serviceable defensively does not make you a two way player. Being tall does not make you a two way player. Having won dpoy's in the past does not make you a two way player. A real two way player is, at a minimum, a signifcant rim protector. The falll off between the best defenders and the complimentary pieces is staggering.

Even the likes of jordan and lebron, two of the best perimiter defenders ever never had defensive impact even approaching the likes of peak duncan, hakeem, draymond green, or garnett. Being able to play defence does not make your defense significantly valuable. And no, you do not need to be tall to be good defensively, cough, lowry, cough.

Continue, filthy casuals.

Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player"

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:42 pm
by abark
Where you set the bar for how good the player has to be on offense and defense is arbitrary. The definition of a "two way player" could vary anywhere from superstar on both ends to merely being a net positive.

Why isn't Pascal Siakam a two way player? He's very clearly a net positive player on both ends by any metric.

Who determines what the cutoff is for a term that became popular pretty recently?

Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player"

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:44 pm
by RealityIsDemar
You don't need to be a superstar to be a player that's fluid and a net positive on both ends of the court. If you're bringing it on Offence, and on Defence then you impact the game both ways, and, in my mind are a Two Way Player.

Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player"

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:46 pm
by og15
freethedevil wrote:When people say someone is a "two way player", the implication is that their defence is good enough that it's offers nearly the value of an elite offensive player, The line of argumentation here is that "this player x is two way", so therefore even if he isnt' as good as player y offensively, his defence makes him near 2x.

I never understood that to be the implication being made, interesting...

Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player"

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:46 pm
by shza
Good post OP. The praise for Kawhi’s defensive quality is purely based on past rep.

Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player"

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 4:29 pm
by jbk1234
I think the Blazers have demonstrated, repeatedly, that offensive superstars need to play alongside two-way players in order to truly contend.

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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player"

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 4:38 pm
by druggas
shza wrote:Good post OP. The praise for Kawhi’s defensive quality is purely based on past rep.

Wrong.

Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player"

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 4:50 pm
by Richard Miller
Good point. How many 2-way players would anyone take before Harden or Curry?

Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player"

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 4:58 pm
by a8bil
Well, I think the real point is that the value of an elite offensive player who can overcome great team defense is greater than a great individual defensive player, unless you're Bill Russell. Great defense is a team thing. You need five players working together to consistently get defensive stops. An elite offensive player can impact the game on their own.

Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player"

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:07 pm
by The_Hater
I’m going to continue calling those players who are effective on both ends of the court, 2-way players. Those who aren’t effective on one end or the other, I will continue to avoid that term.

Thank you.

Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player"

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:08 pm
by alebaba
shza wrote:Good post OP. The praise for Kawhi’s defensive quality is purely based on past rep.



You dont remember him shutting down Giannis? Don't get mad Kawhi is better than your boy Curry playing on a bum leg too :lol:

Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player"

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:10 pm
by Lukeem
Relying on stats that suggest defensive impact is really only made at protecting the rim to diffuse the influence of players that prevent the ball from getting close to the rim as well as bring down perimeter ( where most offences want to go now) percentages ?

Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player"

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:16 pm
by SlowPaced
Two-way player is a legitimate term, it's just being used in an incorrect manner by many. Some act like it's supposed to be something that trumps elite one-way play, which is inaccurate, it's all about aggregate impact. Khris Middleton is a better "two-way player" than James Harden, but it's pretty obvious who is the better player.

I have to disagree about the points you made with regard to Kawhi and Steph's defense, however. Steph is hid on defense by the Warriors' excellent defensive personnel, it is very apparent in their schemes. As for Kawhi, while he isn't the defender he used to be on a consistent basis, he is still one of the better ones when required. He clearly played while injured this postseason and had a ton of weight on his shoulders on offense, not fair to expect him to be what he could be on defense.

Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player"

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:18 pm
by ellobo
abark wrote:Where you set the bar for how good the player has to be on offense and defense is arbitrary. The definition of a "two way player" could vary anywhere from superstar on both ends to merely being a net positive on both ends.

Who says Pascal Siakam isn't a two way player? He's very clearly a net positive player on both ends by any metric.

Who determined where the cutoff was for this term that became popular pretty recently?


+1.

It's a vague term with no specific or widely accepted definition, other than a guy who is generally "good" (however you define "good") on both sides of the ball, whether it's an offensive star who is also at least a competent defender, or a player who is known for defense but is also a competent offensive player. I've never understood it (or seen it used) to mean that a player provides equal value on offense and defense.

Getting outraged because people don't define the term like you (the OP) do is misguided, and demanding that other people should adopt your definition is pointless.

Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player"

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:19 pm
by stepic
Richard Miller wrote:Good point. How many 2-way players would anyone take before Harden or Curry?


I’d take Kawhi over either of those players.

Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player"

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:37 pm
by CobyWhiteDaGoat
freethedevil wrote:When people say someone is a "two way player", the implication is that their defence is good enough that it's offers nearly the value of an elite offensive player .


That's not what it means at all. A two way player is just someone who is good on both ends

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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player"

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:39 pm
by XxIronChainzxX
abark wrote:Where you set the bar for how good the player has to be on offense and defense is arbitrary. The definition of a "two way player" could vary anywhere from superstar on both ends to merely being a net positive.

Why isn't Pascal Siakam a two way player? He's very clearly a net positive player on both ends by any metric.

Who determines what the cutoff is for this term that became popular pretty recently?


I always thought it was the point where your defense is so good it makes up for mediocre offense. So for Kawhi for example, when he was DPOY and top 15 offensively, that made him a top 5 player along with guys like LeBron.

Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player"

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:41 pm
by clyde21
Richard Miller wrote:Good point. How many 2-way players would anyone take before Harden or Curry?



and Harden and Steph ARE two way players...its not like they leave the court and sit on the bench when it's a defensive possession. The concept itself doesnt make sense

there is such a thing as team defense, which a lot of people don't seem to understand

Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player"

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:46 pm
by CobyWhiteDaGoat
clyde21 wrote:
Richard Miller wrote:Good point. How many 2-way players would anyone take before Harden or Curry?



and Harden and Steph ARE two way players...its not like they leave the court and sit on the bench when it's a defensive possession. The concept itself doesnt make sense

there is such a thing as team defense, which a lot of people don't seem to understand
To be a two-way player you have to be a good defender, Harden and Steph aren't good defenders so they aren't two-way players

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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player"

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:48 pm
by abark
XxIronChainzxX wrote:
abark wrote:Where you set the bar for how good the player has to be on offense and defense is arbitrary. The definition of a "two way player" could vary anywhere from superstar on both ends to merely being a net positive.

Why isn't Pascal Siakam a two way player? He's very clearly a net positive player on both ends by any metric.

Who determines what the cutoff is for this term that became popular pretty recently?


I always thought it was the point where your defense is so good it makes up for mediocre offense. So for Kawhi for example, when he was DPOY and top 15 offensively, that made him a top 5 player along with guys like LeBron.

And I always thought it referred to a player simply being a relatively significant net positive on both sides of the ball. There's no definitive answer.

But either way, shut the hell up and accept the OP's definition you filthy casual.