Rookie Discussion [19/20] [part I]

[Duke4life831]

I guess no one thinks MPJ is going to do anything. If he's not hurt, there is no way he's not making a rookie team or even flat out winning roty

MPJ has zero shot at winning ROY over Zion.

[Marcus]

I guess no one thinks MPJ is going to do anything. If he's not hurt, there is no way he's not making a rookie team or even flat out winning roty

how big of a day one role do you see him having on that team? who's touches is he taking? Murray? Jokic?

[Klomp]

Jarrett Culver scored 17 points with six rebounds, three assists, one steal, one block and four 3-pointers in 26 minutes against the Warriors on Thursday.

He's way ahead of the curve with plenty of chances to handle the ball. The Wolves kept him out of summer league to get him familiar with the system, and he's expected to play 1-3 as a backup. Culver's athleticism and length should keep him on the floor out of the gate, and it may not take him long to take minutes from Andrew Wiggins. He's worth a pick in the later rounds.

Read on Twitter

[Marcus]

I will say this. I love how much confidence these kids come in with.

[clyde21]

I will say this. I love how much confidence these kids come in with.

yup...up to the coaches to cultivate that confidence and not ruin it with stupid minutes distribution and yanking players out after mistakes

[Goudelock]

I guess no one thinks MPJ is going to do anything. If he's not hurt, there is no way he's not making a rookie team or even flat out winning roty

MPJ has zero shot at winning ROY over Zion.

I agree that MPJ isn't winning the ROY, or probably even starting. But I'm wondering if you're a bit too harsh on him in terms of him being a stiff athlete. From what limited amount I've seen, he looks extremely fluid to me, and able to get where he needs to go on the floor. His jump shot is a thing of beauty too, and he appears to have a very high but quick release that will stop it from being blocked.

Of course......he's playing against scrubs.

[Marcus]

I guess no one thinks MPJ is going to do anything. If he's not hurt, there is no way he's not making a rookie team or even flat out winning roty

MPJ has zero shot at winning ROY over Zion.

I agree that MPJ isn't winning the ROY, or probably even starting. But I'm wondering if you're a bit too harsh on him in terms of him being a stiff athlete. From what limited amount I've seen, he looks extremely fluid to me, and able to get where he needs to go on the floor. His jump shot is a thing of beauty too, and he appears to have a very high but quick release that will stop it from being blocked.

Of course......he's playing against scrubs.

Doesn't get low enough on either end of the floor wayyy to upright when handling in ISO and wayyyyyy too upright when sliding on defense. Shot is pure, great lift, consistent release point, and he's a problem if he can get to his spot. I think this offense can be very good for him if he can learn to play well with the carousel (my nickname for Jokic) and either attack or pull-up off those handoffs. I think he could be effective in ISO if the matchups are favorable but he should be very effective off motion and off the catch with the system the nuggets have in place. As long as he's content with being "a" guy and not "the" guy he should give the nuggets a pretty solid three level scorer and give a diffent dynamic in that than what they currently have with JoMal.

[Duke4life831]

I guess no one thinks MPJ is going to do anything. If he's not hurt, there is no way he's not making a rookie team or even flat out winning roty

MPJ has zero shot at winning ROY over Zion.

I agree that MPJ isn't winning the ROY, or probably even starting. But I'm wondering if you're a bit too harsh on him in terms of him being a stiff athlete. From what limited amount I've seen, he looks extremely fluid to me, and able to get where he needs to go on the floor. His jump shot is a thing of beauty too, and he appears to have a very high but quick release that will stop it from being blocked.

Of course......he's playing against scrubs.

I agree 100% that his form on his jumper is fantastic, Ive always said that. Ive just said he has yet to have consistent results with that jumper though. Ive seen both games, I still dont see great wiggle by him athletically. Pretty much all his shots have been contested tough mid range shots, or tip backs or cuts. Nothing on ball yet. He did have one nice blow by in the half court against the Clips, but I believe it was against the rookie center out of FSU (forgot his name), not really the quickest fleet of foot guy.

Again I kind of see him as a bigger Barnes with as of now a less consistent jumper. I will say I did like how he attacked the offensive boards and cut against the Clips. Ive really never seen him in an off ball role before so that was nice to see those two things from him. I just dont think he has the wiggle or the handle to be a consistent on ball creator. He is very tall when he dribbles and his handle is very high and basic. Defensively is the same thing, tall and stiff. Now if he uses his size and bounce to be more of a pick n pop 4 that crashes boards and can be a threat in transition, I think he will maximize his impact that way.

I never thought he was a bad prospect, just never thought he was an elite one. He definitely has potential to be a good player with his size, bounce and shot. I just dont see star player is all.

[Duke4life831]

MPJ has zero shot at winning ROY over Zion.

I agree that MPJ isn't winning the ROY, or probably even starting. But I'm wondering if you're a bit too harsh on him in terms of him being a stiff athlete. From what limited amount I've seen, he looks extremely fluid to me, and able to get where he needs to go on the floor. His jump shot is a thing of beauty too, and he appears to have a very high but quick release that will stop it from being blocked.

Of course......he's playing against scrubs.

Doesn't get low enough on either end of the floor wayyy to upright when handling in ISO and wayyyyyy too upright when sliding on defense. Shot is pure, great lift, consistent release point, and he's a problem if he can get to his spot. I think this offense can be very good for him if he can learn to play well with the carousel (my nickname for Jokic) and either attack or pull-up off those handoffs. I think he could be effective in ISO if the matchups are favorable but he should be very effective off motion and off the catch with the system the nuggets have in place. As long as he's content with being "a" guy and not "the" guy he should give the nuggets a pretty solid three level scorer and give a diffent dynamic in that than what they currently have with JoMal.

Thanks for stealing my exact reply, just replied quicker and a much more efficient and to the point version than mine haha.

[Marcus]

I agree that MPJ isn't winning the ROY, or probably even starting. But I'm wondering if you're a bit too harsh on him in terms of him being a stiff athlete. From what limited amount I've seen, he looks extremely fluid to me, and able to get where he needs to go on the floor. His jump shot is a thing of beauty too, and he appears to have a very high but quick release that will stop it from being blocked.

Of course......he's playing against scrubs.

Doesn't get low enough on either end of the floor wayyy to upright when handling in ISO and wayyyyyy too upright when sliding on defense. Shot is pure, great lift, consistent release point, and he's a problem if he can get to his spot. I think this offense can be very good for him if he can learn to play well with the carousel (my nickname for Jokic) and either attack or pull-up off those handoffs. I think he could be effective in ISO if the matchups are favorable but he should be very effective off motion and off the catch with the system the nuggets have in place. As long as he's content with being "a" guy and not "the" guy he should give the nuggets a pretty solid three level scorer and give a diffent dynamic in that than what they currently have with JoMal.

Thanks for stealing my exact reply, just replied quicker and a much more efficient and to the point version than mine haha.

lol. was actually gonna sit that one out but i know I've voiced the same concerns before about MPJ. Plus it's dead at work so why not.

[sfernald]

Just to talk about Zion for a minute since he’s about to play, after watching just a couple of his preseason games, is anyone getting the feeling this guy might be more of a “lebron” type player than maybe many thought and he should be the #1 option immediately with 1) how unstoppable he is driving to the basket 2) what a great passer and playmaker he really is and 3) his absolute insane efficiency. Why wouldn’t you want him to be THE GUY ASAFP!?

[Duke4life831]

Doesn't get low enough on either end of the floor wayyy to upright when handling in ISO and wayyyyyy too upright when sliding on defense. Shot is pure, great lift, consistent release point, and he's a problem if he can get to his spot. I think this offense can be very good for him if he can learn to play well with the carousel (my nickname for Jokic) and either attack or pull-up off those handoffs. I think he could be effective in ISO if the matchups are favorable but he should be very effective off motion and off the catch with the system the nuggets have in place. As long as he's content with being "a" guy and not "the" guy he should give the nuggets a pretty solid three level scorer and give a diffent dynamic in that than what they currently have with JoMal.

Thanks for stealing my exact reply, just replied quicker and a much more efficient and to the point version than mine haha.

lol. was actually gonna sit that one out but i know I've voiced the same concerns before about MPJ. Plus it's dead at work so why not.

Haha you're just too goddamn quick and efficient on your posts. Here I was writing a novel and you breaking it down in about half the words. But ya I think you and I have seen him pretty similarly for a couple years now.

[Duke4life831]

Just to talk about Zion for a minute since he’s about to play, after watching just a couple of his preseason games, is anyone getting the feeling this guy might be more of a “lebron” type player than maybe many thought and he should be the #1 option immediately with 1) how unstoppable he is driving to the basket 2) what a great passer and playmaker he really is and 3) his absolute insane efficiency. Why wouldn’t you want him to be THE GUY ASAFP!?

He doesn't have the skill set yet. To be clear, I think prime Zion will be a point forward kind of player, like how the Bucks use Giannis. But he just isn't there yet. The potential is there with his handle, but it is not consistent enough to be a primary ball handler. He needs to tighten that up and get into his Duke or ideally senior year of high school shape to handle the workload of running an offense and playing high level defense (which is one of his biggest strengths leaving college).

I believe the Pels are truly thinking they can maybe sneak into the playoffs this year. Right now Zion can have a very high impact playing off the ball. I think it will be smart for them to continue to have him focus on high energy plays and learning and adjusting to the speed of the game that way this year. I think he can be a pretty high impact player, with good raw stats and Pels have a chance at sneaking into the playoffs this way. The season will be pretty rough if they just hand him the keys to running the offense day 1.

[GeorgeMarcus]

.

I can't help but see Barkley when I watch Zion. You have more exposure than I do- is that a fair comparison?

[sfernald]

.

I can't help but see Barkley when I watch Zion. You have more exposure than I do- is that a fair comparison?

Yeah but Zion bigger and more joyful. Barkley like often said was a MEAN F***.

[GeorgeMarcus]

.

I can't help but see Barkley when I watch Zion. You have more exposure than I do- is that a fair comparison?

Yeah but Zion bigger and more joyful. Barkley like often said was a MEAN F***.

Charles was a playful kind of mean, but I hear what you're saying. Their likeness ends with their style of play.

[sfernald]

I can't help but see Barkley when I watch Zion. You have more exposure than I do- is that a fair comparison?

Yeah but Zion bigger and more joyful. Barkley like often said was a MEAN F***.

Charles was a playful kind of mean, but I hear what you're saying. Their likeness ends with their style of play.

Playful that’s true too. He was fun to watch because he was such a competitor with a nasty streak. I guess in a way Zion is like Bark in that he seems like a nasty competitor too.

[Duke4life831]

.

I can't help but see Barkley when I watch Zion. You have more exposure than I do- is that a fair comparison?

To be fair I didnt see Barkley play (well at least prime Barkley play). So a lot of what I can go off from him is just highlights and stats. So I dont really know the small nuances like how good of a cutter was Barkley, Zion is a phenomenal cutter. Stuff like that is hard for me to compare.

But going off of the things Ive read, seen and stats. I would say Zion is the more explosive athlete, Zion isn't the rebounder Barkley was, while I do think facilitating (mainly just looking at assists) I think Zion will be in the same Barkley territory or 4-5 assists a game during his prime.

This things that I cant judge is, I really have no clue how ball dominant Barkley was. I think that is one of Zion's biggest strengths, especially in today's game. He is almost Klay Thompson level of not needing the ball to put up points. Zion can be a 20ppg guy just from primarily transition, cutting, put backs and PnR. I think that is a huge asset, especially if he ever teams up with a ball dominant star. I dont know if Barkley had that off ball ability.

After seeing so much of him over the last couple years, I still honestly dont know a good comparison for him. Between his size, athleticism, IQ, off ball ability (even though he doesn't have a good jumper). I honestly dont know.

[Marcus]

Just to talk about Zion for a minute since he’s about to play, after watching just a couple of his preseason games, is anyone getting the feeling this guy might be more of a “lebron” type player than maybe many thought and he should be the #1 immediately with 1) how unstoppable he is to drive to the basket 2) what a great passer and playmaker he really is and 3) his absolute insane efficiency. Why wouldn’t you want him to be THE GUY ASAFP!?

not quite for the 1-3 and not yet for him being the guy.

1. fits to a tee for sure. he's pretty much unstoppable if he's two moves away from the cup.

2. yes he is and will be a better passer than what he'll likely be given credit for but in terms of the type of assist and passes he makes they speak more to his IQ and understanding of the game than with LeBron who is doing more in terms of orchestration. Zion doesn't miss many reads at all but he's not quite in the business of manipulation yet. I think that's more by virtue of him not seeing enough and I do think he could add an element of it. But i think his passing and the effectiveness of it is something that is and will be more amplified by the I.Q of the guys around him as well as his own.

3. This part ties into the part about making him the guy RN. His efficiency comes from his decision making off ball. he rarely attacks if not advantageous and he moves extremely well off the ball. He always find a hole in the defense and times his cuts like a vet. with his otherwordly athletic gifts all he needs is one to two moves at most before he can finish and there is little to nothing the defense can do about it. When you say make him the guy, you're now placing responsibility in his hands, you're asking him to make reads that not only effect him but effect his teammates. Not sure he's ready to allow the floor to shift for shooters at this level, not sure he's equipped to read early doubles, late doubles, where they're coming from, who's playing safety, can the guy left open finish, and or finding his actual spots just yet.

Watch the bulls game early 3rd when he dropped 13 in no time at all, watch after the first couple buckets he had. Nawlins tried posting him, Zach LaVine rooted him off the block and was able to front him once he got him away from the paint. If he can't even figure out how to seal off LaVine I can't put the ball in his hands. If he's rooted out that far from the basket by a guy he likely won't beat with footspeed or even if he can we're now 15 to 18 feet from the basket with a kid that doesn't have a jumper developed yet and is now being asked to read traps, where the help is coming from, and where his outlets are at an NBA level. Rest assured tape will be studied to see what he does well and if they put the ball in his hands RN schemes will be created to take advantage of what he hasn't seen yet.


Again i say, use him the same way the Pels used rookie AD. Zion will eat off of energy until he's ready to take on the responsibilities of everything else. He needs to add a few more options to what he's doing and needs to be exposed to a little more before we give him a full plate. I do think eventually he gets there and it might happen sooner than even i think but it doesn't need to be rushed.

[Marcus]

Just to talk about Zion for a minute since he’s about to play, after watching just a couple of his preseason games, is anyone getting the feeling this guy might be more of a “lebron” type player than maybe many thought and he should be the #1 option immediately with 1) how unstoppable he is driving to the basket 2) what a great passer and playmaker he really is and 3) his absolute insane efficiency. Why wouldn’t you want him to be THE GUY ASAFP!?

He doesn't have the skill set yet. To be clear, I think prime Zion will be a point forward kind of player, like how the Bucks use Giannis. But he just isn't there yet. The potential is there with his handle, but it is not consistent enough to be a primary ball handler. He needs to tighten that up and get into his Duke or ideally senior year of high school shape to handle the workload of running an offense and playing high level defense (which is one of his biggest strengths leaving college).

I believe the Pels are truly thinking they can maybe sneak into the playoffs this year. Right now Zion can have a very high impact playing off the ball. I think it will be smart for them to continue to have him focus on high energy plays and learning and adjusting to the speed of the game that way this year. I think he can be a pretty high impact player, with good raw stats and Pels have a chance at sneaking into the playoffs this way. The season will be pretty rough if they just hand him the keys to running the offense day 1.

lmao guess it was your turn this time.