Rookie Discussion [19/20] [part I]

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Who are your top 3 bets for ROTY if Zion sits out season?

Poll runs till Sat Feb 29, 2020 7:29 pm

Brandon Clarke
17
2%
PJ Washington
54
7%
Kendrick Nunn
76
10%
Ja Morant
185
25%
Darius Garland
14
2%
Coby White
79
11%
Rui Hachimura
63
9%
RJ Barrett
223
30%
De’Andre Hunter
20
3%
Jarrett Culver
7
1%
 
Total votes: 738

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Re: Rookie Discussion [POLL UPDATED TOP 3 - CAN CHANGE CHOICE AS GAMES ARE PLAYED] 

Post#981 » by 13th Man » Tue Nov 5, 2019 2:41 pm

Ftr, I posted about Paschall a couple of pages back before last night's game :)

I likened him to Zion right away with his body control and the way he can muscle himself into the paint off the dribble. He's also pretty athletic and explosive for his size as well. His shot looks smoother than Zion's though and he elevates higher up on his jumper.

The Dubs game last night was very enjoyable to watch, it's easy rooting for them when they don't have an heir of arrogance on the court.
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Re: Rookie Discussion [POLL UPDATED TOP 3 - CAN CHANGE CHOICE AS GAMES ARE PLAYED] 

Post#982 » by Marcus » Tue Nov 5, 2019 6:04 pm

Bernman wrote:include all break out players or up and comers.


sounds like a new thread to start
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Re: Rookie Discussion [POLL UPDATED TOP 3 - CAN CHANGE CHOICE AS GAMES ARE PLAYED] 

Post#983 » by Duke4life831 » Tue Nov 5, 2019 6:09 pm

Marcus wrote:
Bernman wrote:include all break out players or up and comers.


sounds like a new thread to start


Ya that would just be a MIP thread. Im not against it, but that is a very different discussion than a rookie thread. The rookie thread is a discussion about rookies, just like the MVP thread is a discussion about potential MVPs.
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Re: Rookie Discussion [POLL UPDATED TOP 3 - CAN CHANGE CHOICE AS GAMES ARE PLAYED] 

Post#984 » by Duke4life831 » Tue Nov 5, 2019 6:17 pm

Looks like NAW's bad play has caught up to him with 12, 7 and 4 minutes his last 3 games. He just doesn't look comfortable on either side of the ball unless he's running the PnR. He still hasnt adjusted to the speed of the game and that jumper is way too slow for it to be consistent, he needs to speed that thing up. I was never as high on him as most, but I still think once he gets up to speed, he can be a good rotation guard. The way he is playing when he goes on the court just makes him unplayable at the moment. He is 2nd in the team when it comes to shots per 36. Per 36 he is chucking up 19 shots for a smooth 12 points. Just cant be doing that and expect to keep getting minutes.

Hayes has looked kind of how I expected he would look, raw and not ready to be a consistent rotation player. Defensively he's been a wreck, he looks like a chicken with his head cut off and has a cool 10 fouls per 36 going right now. I think taking players like him in the top 10 are usually a reach, you can usually find a super raw athletic freak big late in the 1st. But with that said you do see the potential with that kid. Just going to take a few years, probably the rawest rookie in the league this year.
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Re: Rookie Discussion [POLL UPDATED TOP 3 - CAN CHANGE CHOICE AS GAMES ARE PLAYED] 

Post#985 » by Marcus » Tue Nov 5, 2019 6:45 pm

Duke4life831 wrote:Looks like NAW's bad play has caught up to him with 12, 7 and 4 minutes his last 3 games. He just doesn't look comfortable on either side of the ball unless he's running the PnR. He still hasnt adjusted to the speed of the game and that jumper is way too slow for it to be consistent, he needs to speed that thing up. I was never as high on him as most, but I still think once he gets up to speed, he can be a good rotation guard. The way he is playing when he goes on the court just makes him unplayable at the moment. He is 2nd in the team when it comes to shots per 36. Per 36 he is chucking up 19 shots for a smooth 12 points. Just cant be doing that and expect to keep getting minutes.

Hayes has looked kind of how I expected he would look, raw and not ready to be a consistent rotation player. Defensively he's been a wreck, he looks like a chicken with his head cut off and has a cool 10 fouls per 36 going right now. I think taking players like him in the top 10 are usually a reach, you can usually find a super raw athletic freak big late in the 1st. But with that said you do see the potential with that kid. Just going to take a few years, probably the rawest rookie in the league this year.


Didn't mind the Hayes pick that high just because NO isn't in any hurry it would seem. There's no shortage of talent to develop there so why not swing. Once Hayes adapts there is a ton to work with, it will take some time no question about it but what he could be coupled with what Zion could be when healthy is pretty scary all things considered.

As far as NAW, yeah, wayyyyy too fast, I think he's another one that needs to not play at the NO pace and play at his own. Wayyyyy too many reads and responsibility coupled with playing that fast as a PG in the league in general, that's tenfold when its a rookie PG.
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Re: Rookie Discussion [POLL UPDATED TOP 3 - CAN CHANGE CHOICE AS GAMES ARE PLAYED] 

Post#986 » by Duke4life831 » Tue Nov 5, 2019 7:02 pm

Marcus wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:Looks like NAW's bad play has caught up to him with 12, 7 and 4 minutes his last 3 games. He just doesn't look comfortable on either side of the ball unless he's running the PnR. He still hasnt adjusted to the speed of the game and that jumper is way too slow for it to be consistent, he needs to speed that thing up. I was never as high on him as most, but I still think once he gets up to speed, he can be a good rotation guard. The way he is playing when he goes on the court just makes him unplayable at the moment. He is 2nd in the team when it comes to shots per 36. Per 36 he is chucking up 19 shots for a smooth 12 points. Just cant be doing that and expect to keep getting minutes.

Hayes has looked kind of how I expected he would look, raw and not ready to be a consistent rotation player. Defensively he's been a wreck, he looks like a chicken with his head cut off and has a cool 10 fouls per 36 going right now. I think taking players like him in the top 10 are usually a reach, you can usually find a super raw athletic freak big late in the 1st. But with that said you do see the potential with that kid. Just going to take a few years, probably the rawest rookie in the league this year.


Didn't mind the Hayes pick that high just because NO isn't in any hurry it would seem. There's no shortage of talent to develop there so why not swing. Once Hayes adapts there is a ton to work with, it will take some time no question about it but what he could be coupled with what Zion could be when healthy is pretty scary all things considered.

As far as NAW, yeah, wayyyyy too fast, I think he's another one that needs to not play at the NO pace and play at his own. Wayyyyy too many reads and responsibility coupled with playing that fast as a PG in the league in general, that's tenfold when its a rookie PG.


Im a fan of Hayes, just think you can find raw athletic bigs late in the 1st most years, not a shot at Hayes, more just a thought on the kind of player he is. Kind of like RBs in the NFL, you can get a stud like Dalvin Cook mid 2nd round. Unless its a freak level prospect (dont think Hayes is that), I just think its a reach. But ya overall I like him for the team and dont think him being a couple years away makes him a bad pickup for them.

I do question if NAW will ever be a good fit for that high paced style that the Pels play. Because again when he slows it down and gets to run sets, that is when he looks great. He has a 5:1 assist to turnover ratio, because when he does get to slow it down and run the PnR, he does that really well. But nothing about this Pels roster is really built for that. You look at the time of possession stats for the Pels, its all quick. Everyone is under 3 dribbles per touch (Jrue is at 2.99) except for NAW. NAW leads in both secs per touch and dribbles per touch.

Now granted its a very slight lead for both, I just think that's his style. He likes to hold the ball, run some plays and make the right read. That aint this Pels team, this Pels team is high volume passing. You get the ball and you either shoot, make a move or pass it. You now put NAW in that fast style of play, plus him being a rookie and trying to get used to the speed of the game. Its just too much for him right now. Im definitely not writing NAW off with this team already, just something Im going to be looking at. You can still be a good player, just not in the right system. I mean just look at Ingram playing LeBron ball, that clearly didnt work, that system doesn't fit how he plays.
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Re: Rookie Discussion [POLL UPDATED TOP 3 - CAN CHANGE CHOICE AS GAMES ARE PLAYED] 

Post#987 » by Bernman » Tue Nov 5, 2019 7:10 pm

Duke4life831 wrote:Ya that would just be a MIP thread. Im not against it, but that is a very different discussion than a rookie thread. The rookie thread is a discussion about rookies, just like the MVP thread is a discussion about potential MVPs.


"The Power" just started a MIP thread, it's not a sticky, and he made a point to exclude sophomores, after he saw my post here pointing out there's not much of a lane for discussion of them. He composed the message immediately after mine.
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Re: Rookie Discussion [POLL UPDATED TOP 3 - CAN CHANGE CHOICE AS GAMES ARE PLAYED] 

Post#988 » by Marcus » Tue Nov 5, 2019 7:52 pm

Duke4life831 wrote:
Marcus wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:Looks like NAW's bad play has caught up to him with 12, 7 and 4 minutes his last 3 games. He just doesn't look comfortable on either side of the ball unless he's running the PnR. He still hasnt adjusted to the speed of the game and that jumper is way too slow for it to be consistent, he needs to speed that thing up. I was never as high on him as most, but I still think once he gets up to speed, he can be a good rotation guard. The way he is playing when he goes on the court just makes him unplayable at the moment. He is 2nd in the team when it comes to shots per 36. Per 36 he is chucking up 19 shots for a smooth 12 points. Just cant be doing that and expect to keep getting minutes.

Hayes has looked kind of how I expected he would look, raw and not ready to be a consistent rotation player. Defensively he's been a wreck, he looks like a chicken with his head cut off and has a cool 10 fouls per 36 going right now. I think taking players like him in the top 10 are usually a reach, you can usually find a super raw athletic freak big late in the 1st. But with that said you do see the potential with that kid. Just going to take a few years, probably the rawest rookie in the league this year.


Didn't mind the Hayes pick that high just because NO isn't in any hurry it would seem. There's no shortage of talent to develop there so why not swing. Once Hayes adapts there is a ton to work with, it will take some time no question about it but what he could be coupled with what Zion could be when healthy is pretty scary all things considered.

As far as NAW, yeah, wayyyyy too fast, I think he's another one that needs to not play at the NO pace and play at his own. Wayyyyy too many reads and responsibility coupled with playing that fast as a PG in the league in general, that's tenfold when its a rookie PG.


Im a fan of Hayes, just think you can find raw athletic bigs late in the 1st most years, not a shot at Hayes, more just a thought on the kind of player he is. Kind of like RBs in the NFL, you can get a stud like Dalvin Cook mid 2nd round. Unless its a freak level prospect (dont think Hayes is that), I just think its a reach. But ya overall I like him for the team and dont think him being a couple years away makes him a bad pickup for them.

I do question if NAW will ever be a good fit for that high paced style that the Pels play. Because again when he slows it down and gets to run sets, that is when he looks great. He has a 5:1 assist to turnover ratio, because when he does get to slow it down and run the PnR, he does that really well. But nothing about this Pels roster is really built for that. You look at the time of possession stats for the Pels, its all quick. Everyone is under 3 dribbles per touch (Jrue is at 2.99) except for NAW. NAW leads in both secs per touch and dribbles per touch.

Now granted its a very slight lead for both, I just think that's his style. He likes to hold the ball, run some plays and make the right read. That aint this Pels team, this Pels team is high volume passing. You get the ball and you either shoot, make a move or pass it. You now put NAW in that fast style of play, plus him being a rookie and trying to get used to the speed of the game. Its just too much for him right now. Im definitely not writing NAW off with this team already, just something Im going to be looking at. You can still be a good player, just not in the right system. I mean just look at Ingram playing LeBron ball, that clearly didnt work, that system doesn't fit how he plays.


Solid point with Hayes. I'm not sure what Chicago is doing with Gafford at the moment but i can see how those two could be looked at as a one for one RN.

I wouldn't be surprised once Zion gets back and this Pels team is fully fleshed out if the fat gets trimmed rotation and roster wise. They'll keep what fits and jettison the rest. I think they have some pieces that other teams can use that would play better elsewhere and it looks like this is a pace that those who are comfortable playing in make it viable going forward talent wise.
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Re: Rookie Discussion [POLL UPDATED TOP 3 - CAN CHANGE CHOICE AS GAMES ARE PLAYED] 

Post#989 » by Marcus » Tue Nov 5, 2019 7:54 pm

Bernman wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:Ya that would just be a MIP thread. Im not against it, but that is a very different discussion than a rookie thread. The rookie thread is a discussion about rookies, just like the MVP thread is a discussion about potential MVPs.


"The Power" just started a MIP thread, it's not a sticky, and he made a point to exclude sophomores, after he saw my post here pointing out there's not much of a lane for discussion of them. He composed the message immediately after mine.


wasn't that long ago someone started a sophomore thread which had pretty good traction. just do that and see what the interest is for it.
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Post#990 » by Duke4life831 » Tue Nov 5, 2019 8:06 pm

Marcus wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
Marcus wrote:
Didn't mind the Hayes pick that high just because NO isn't in any hurry it would seem. There's no shortage of talent to develop there so why not swing. Once Hayes adapts there is a ton to work with, it will take some time no question about it but what he could be coupled with what Zion could be when healthy is pretty scary all things considered.

As far as NAW, yeah, wayyyyy too fast, I think he's another one that needs to not play at the NO pace and play at his own. Wayyyyy too many reads and responsibility coupled with playing that fast as a PG in the league in general, that's tenfold when its a rookie PG.


Im a fan of Hayes, just think you can find raw athletic bigs late in the 1st most years, not a shot at Hayes, more just a thought on the kind of player he is. Kind of like RBs in the NFL, you can get a stud like Dalvin Cook mid 2nd round. Unless its a freak level prospect (dont think Hayes is that), I just think its a reach. But ya overall I like him for the team and dont think him being a couple years away makes him a bad pickup for them.

I do question if NAW will ever be a good fit for that high paced style that the Pels play. Because again when he slows it down and gets to run sets, that is when he looks great. He has a 5:1 assist to turnover ratio, because when he does get to slow it down and run the PnR, he does that really well. But nothing about this Pels roster is really built for that. You look at the time of possession stats for the Pels, its all quick. Everyone is under 3 dribbles per touch (Jrue is at 2.99) except for NAW. NAW leads in both secs per touch and dribbles per touch.

Now granted its a very slight lead for both, I just think that's his style. He likes to hold the ball, run some plays and make the right read. That aint this Pels team, this Pels team is high volume passing. You get the ball and you either shoot, make a move or pass it. You now put NAW in that fast style of play, plus him being a rookie and trying to get used to the speed of the game. Its just too much for him right now. Im definitely not writing NAW off with this team already, just something Im going to be looking at. You can still be a good player, just not in the right system. I mean just look at Ingram playing LeBron ball, that clearly didnt work, that system doesn't fit how he plays.


Solid point with Hayes. I'm not sure what Chicago is doing with Gafford at the moment but i can see how those two could be looked at as a one for one RN.

I wouldn't be surprised once Zion gets back and this Pels team is fully fleshed out if the fat gets trimmed rotation and roster wise. They'll keep what fits and jettison the rest. I think they have some pieces that other teams can use that would play better elsewhere and it looks like this is a pace that those who are comfortable playing in make it viable going forward talent wise.


Ya just some raw athletic bigs taken late 1st or 2nd over the past few years

Gafford and Bruno both 2nd rounders this year
Robert Williams and Robinson late 1st and early 2nd last year
Jarrett Allen late 1st
Damian Jones late 1st

It goes on and on with the likes of guys like Deandre Jordan, Clint Capella and so on. Not saying all of those guys are hits, just strictly speaking about the player type. Again no shot at Hayes, just think that kind of player is the RB of the NFL and I dont think Hayes is a Saquon Barkley level of prospect.

And ya with the Zion injury and the rough start to the season, I think the best route for the Pels is just find out what pieces fit best around Zion/Ingram/Lonzo. No need to make any quick decisions (except maybe Jrue by the trade deadline to get the most return possible for him). They have a ton of young players, it should be fun watching them try and fit all the pieces together.

I thought at the beginning of the year it would be a Frank vs NAW battle for that final guard spot. I wont lie, I love seeing my boy Frank playing well. Now he fits ideally with the fast paced style of the Pels. He and NAW are the same age, definitely keeping my eye on the battle between those two.
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Re: Rookie Discussion [POLL UPDATED TOP 3 - CAN CHANGE CHOICE AS GAMES ARE PLAYED] 

Post#991 » by Marcus » Tue Nov 5, 2019 8:22 pm

Duke4life831 wrote:
Marcus wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
Im a fan of Hayes, just think you can find raw athletic bigs late in the 1st most years, not a shot at Hayes, more just a thought on the kind of player he is. Kind of like RBs in the NFL, you can get a stud like Dalvin Cook mid 2nd round. Unless its a freak level prospect (dont think Hayes is that), I just think its a reach. But ya overall I like him for the team and dont think him being a couple years away makes him a bad pickup for them.

I do question if NAW will ever be a good fit for that high paced style that the Pels play. Because again when he slows it down and gets to run sets, that is when he looks great. He has a 5:1 assist to turnover ratio, because when he does get to slow it down and run the PnR, he does that really well. But nothing about this Pels roster is really built for that. You look at the time of possession stats for the Pels, its all quick. Everyone is under 3 dribbles per touch (Jrue is at 2.99) except for NAW. NAW leads in both secs per touch and dribbles per touch.

Now granted its a very slight lead for both, I just think that's his style. He likes to hold the ball, run some plays and make the right read. That aint this Pels team, this Pels team is high volume passing. You get the ball and you either shoot, make a move or pass it. You now put NAW in that fast style of play, plus him being a rookie and trying to get used to the speed of the game. Its just too much for him right now. Im definitely not writing NAW off with this team already, just something Im going to be looking at. You can still be a good player, just not in the right system. I mean just look at Ingram playing LeBron ball, that clearly didnt work, that system doesn't fit how he plays.


Solid point with Hayes. I'm not sure what Chicago is doing with Gafford at the moment but i can see how those two could be looked at as a one for one RN.

I wouldn't be surprised once Zion gets back and this Pels team is fully fleshed out if the fat gets trimmed rotation and roster wise. They'll keep what fits and jettison the rest. I think they have some pieces that other teams can use that would play better elsewhere and it looks like this is a pace that those who are comfortable playing in make it viable going forward talent wise.


Ya just some raw athletic bigs taken late 1st or 2nd over the past few years

Gafford and Bruno both 2nd rounders this year
Robert Williams and Robinson late 1st and early 2nd last year
Jarrett Allen late 1st
Damian Jones late 1st

It goes on and on with the likes of guys like Deandre Jordan, Clint Capella and so on. Not saying all of those guys are hits, just strictly speaking about the player type. Again no shot at Hayes, just think that kind of player is the RB of the NFL and I dont think Hayes is a Saquon Barkley level of prospect.

And ya with the Zion injury and the rough start to the season, I think the best route for the Pels is just find out what pieces fit best around Zion/Ingram/Lonzo. No need to make any quick decisions (except maybe Jrue by the trade deadline to get the most return possible for him). They have a ton of young players, it should be fun watching them try and fit all the pieces together.

I thought at the beginning of the year it would be a Frank vs NAW battle for that final guard spot. I wont lie, I love seeing my boy Frank playing well. Now he fits ideally with the fast paced style of the Pels. He and NAW are the same age, definitely keeping my eye on the battle between those two.



I got Frank for the win (bias activated). In all honesty though, it's the quick release, his ability to shoot off the catch or pull up, the fact that the ball whips around so he's not asked to probe and read, and his dribble efficiency on the occasions he's given a lane to attack. I think all of that plays better in that system than what NAW bring RN.

back on topic though, really enjoying coaches giving these kids the room to make whatever mistakes they're going to make and not dousing the confidence of these kids out there. There are going to be ups and downs but there seems to be a lot teams willing to just let them play with longer than usual leashes regardless of draft spot. I get that it's early in the season and all that may go away after the dust settles but it's still entertaining early on.
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Re: Rookie Discussion [POLL UPDATED TOP 3 - CAN CHANGE CHOICE AS GAMES ARE PLAYED] 

Post#992 » by FatboyRealPetty » Wed Nov 6, 2019 2:59 am

Cam reddish 12 pts 4/6 and 3/3 from three. didnt watch this but looks like he had a good game. hope he ends up proving doubters wrong
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Re: Rookie Discussion [POLL UPDATED TOP 3 - CAN CHANGE CHOICES AS GAMES ARE PLAYED] 

Post#993 » by Hobo4President » Wed Nov 6, 2019 3:23 am

Garland so far has been disappointing. Heres hoping he improves over the season.
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Post#994 » by Buzzard » Wed Nov 6, 2019 4:46 am

FatboyRealPetty wrote:Cam reddish 12 pts 4/6 and 3/3 from three. didnt watch this but looks like he had a good game. hope he ends up proving doubters wrong

I watch the opposing team broadcast most nights on league pass to hear their commentary on the Hawks. Both spoke highly of and said they liked the Hawks rookies. Hunter did his thing with 16 and 8, Cam had a good showing, and Bruno does not stuff the stat sheet but he is a presence.

Parker ( not a rookie ), Hunter, and Reddish really helped keep the Hawks in the game; then after that, it was Trae Time.
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Re: Rookie Discussion [POLL UPDATED TOP 3 - CAN CHANGE CHOICES AS GAMES ARE PLAYED] 

Post#995 » by Roger Murdock » Thu Nov 7, 2019 12:17 am

Hobo4President wrote:Garland so far has been disappointing. Heres hoping he improves over the season.


For sure. He looks super smooth but his shots not dropping and hes clearly overwhelmed. Hes the rawest rookie and getting good coaching and experience. He'll figure it out. Once he starts hitting 40% from 3 I expect his game to open up.
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Post#996 » by Dacost » Thu Nov 7, 2019 2:41 am

Ja 1st in almost all stats(rookies) and is playing about half the minutes as RJ .

He starting to pull ahead after Nunn finally came back down to earth.
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Post#997 » by BAMAFREAK » Thu Nov 7, 2019 3:19 am

Dacost wrote:Ja 1st in almost all stats(rookies) and is playing about half the minutes as RJ .

He starting to pull ahead after Nunn finally came back down to earth.


Cream of the crop along with Zion
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Post#998 » by Buzzard » Thu Nov 7, 2019 3:46 am

Dacost wrote:Ja 1st in almost all stats(rookies) and is playing about half the minutes as RJ .

He starting to pull ahead after Nunn finally came back down to earth.

Less than 10% of 82 games played. Come January, this could be one of those races were at least the first team all rookie player votes starts swinging in some players favor. Tank time usually means increased minutes for a lot of rookies.
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Post#999 » by Illmatic12 » Thu Nov 7, 2019 3:54 am

Didn’t take long for us to start seeing the red flags with Cam Reddish - this is the problem, you can’t force a kid to fall in love with the game of basketball if he’s not willing to put in the work. If they don’t already have the right mentality coming into the league, it’s too late

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Sadly it’s no secret why Coach K couldn’t wait for him to leave Durham.

Cam Reddish is being paid $5 million and has done NOTHING as a professional to deserve it , if it was bad at Duke you think this kid is gonna listen to anyone now that he’s making millions? Good luck to the Hawks coaching staff trying to get through to him ..
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Re: Rookie Discussion [POLL UPDATED TOP 3 - CAN CHANGE CHOICES AS GAMES ARE PLAYED] 

Post#1000 » by Dacost » Thu Nov 7, 2019 4:15 am

Illmatic12 wrote:Didn’t take long for us to start seeing the red flags with Cam Reddish - this is the problem, you can’t force a kid to fall in love with the game of basketball if he’s not willing to put in the work. If they don’t already have the right mentality coming into the league, it’s too late

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Sadly it’s no secret why Coach K couldn’t wait for him to leave Durham.

Cam Reddish is being paid $5 million and has done NOTHING as a professional to deserve it , if it was bad at Duke you think this kid is gonna listen to anyone now that he’s making millions? Good luck to the Hawks coaching staff trying to get through to him ..

Idk who that coach is but that's not the way to do it ...He almost hit Trae in the face.

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