How can one argue MJ>Lebron and also have MJ> Russell?

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Re: How can one argue MJ>Lebron and also have MJ> Russell? 

Post#261 » by RakimAbdulJabar » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:06 pm

Ainosterhaspie wrote:
RakimAbdulJabar wrote:That's correct, it matters what happens on the floor not on paper, but by the time you reach the finals it's proof that what you had on paper was good enough, and when you start off by self declaring not one..not two...etc you kind of set yourself up for criticism


Utterly irrational claim. Hard to take you seriously if you're going to make a claim like that.


Battier was gassed? He played a total of 33 minutes in 4 games

8MPG plus a DNP in the finals and more DNPs in earlier rounds from a guy who was key to defense and spacing and who retired after that series. Yeah, I'll stand by my statement. He was gassed.

If four Spurs outplayed everyone on the Heat roster other than LeBron, I don't know how you can credibly claim the Heat had a chance in that series regardless of what James did.


There’s nothing irrational about it at all, maybe you haven’t understood it but there’s really no point continuing the discussion as it’s going nowhere and my thumb is sore from typing, all the best
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Re: How can one argue MJ>Lebron and also have MJ> Russell? 

Post#262 » by Ainosterhaspie » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:28 pm

My bad you're right. The Cavs beating the Celtics, Raptors and Pacers in 2018 is proof they were good enough to beat the four future Hall of Famers Prime Warriors. I mean all LeBron really needed to do was average 50+ a night and maybe they could have won the series. That's really not too much to ask.
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Yes I watched Jordan live, started paying attention to basketball in the bad boys era.

I respect Jordan way more now than I did when he played.
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Re: How can one argue MJ>Lebron and also have MJ> Russell? 

Post#263 » by JeepCSC » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:28 pm

The4thHorseman wrote:1989 ECF the Bulls went up 2-1 with game 4 being played in Chicago. That gave them home court advantage. They proceed to lose the next 3gms including game 5 which was MJ's biggest playoff game of his career and he only took 8FGA for the entire game.

Well that’s not how HCA works, but you know that. But it’s true that in a series where he averaged over 20 shots in the other games, Collins decided to use him as a decoy in Game 5 to try after the Pistons brought back the Jordan Rules for Game 4. The thought was the Bulls had a supporting cast that could hurt the Pistons in ways they couldn’t in ‘88 when it was used. But the supporting cast fizzled after helping to hold a lead for most of the first 2.5 quarters.
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Re: How can one argue MJ>Lebron and also have MJ> Russell? 

Post#264 » by Dupp » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:33 pm

The Explorer wrote:
Dupp wrote:
The Explorer wrote:People don't realize the advantages Lebron has. Lebron picked his teammates and roster multiple times. For about half his career he's played GM, he chose his co-stars and his role players. Can you imagine MJ picking a prime Barkley or Olajuwon to join his team? Or even decent role players like Mike Miller, Tristan Thompson. He also got multiple coaches fired and hand-picked his own coaches. Michael never got to do that. He worked with what he had and was very coachable - see Phil Jackson's books and how he detailed this. On top of that, Lebron also had the advantage of stats and advanced stats - he's always been conscious of putting up good advanced metrics and studies them. There was no such thing in MJ's day. He's had the advantage of knowing MJ's metrics and trying to match them. Yet another advantage is he's playing in an era where points, assists are much easier to rack up due to an increase in 3pt volume and emphasis on spacing. Knowing Lebron had all these advantages, what MJ accomplished was much more difficult and therefore more impressive.

Lebron has basically strong-armed his way into the goat discussion artificially, whereas MJ naturally came into the discussion and ultimately considered the GOAT through his sheer on-court dominance and team success.



So MJ was at a disadvantage playing for a goat level coach but lebron was spoon fed luke Walton and David blatt?

Imagine also having a decent role player like an ageing mike miller over someone like rodman. Huge advantage there for lebron. Poor mj


Who said MJ was at a disadvantage because he played for a hall of fame coach? I said Lebron got to pick and choose who he fired and hired which MJ didn't. The point is that he was coachable even if he didn't like some of the strategies. Lebron got to be his own GM. When MJ complained about the roster, Reinsdorf called him into his office scolded him that he needs to be a better leader. And MJ listened. Lebron has been called a coach-killer. If you're really the GOAT, you make due with what you have and still find a way to succeed, which is what MJ did.



Making due with phill Jackson is quite the accomplishment!
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Re: How can one argue MJ>Lebron and also have MJ> Russell? 

Post#265 » by so_bored » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:36 pm

JeepCSC wrote:
The4thHorseman wrote:1989 ECF the Bulls went up 2-1 with game 4 being played in Chicago. That gave them home court advantage. They proceed to lose the next 3gms including game 5 which was MJ's biggest playoff game of his career and he only took 8FGA for the entire game.

Well that’s not how HCA works, but you know that. But it’s true that in a series where he averaged over 20 shots in the other games, Collins decided to use him as a decoy in Game 5 to try after the Pistons brought back the Jordan Rules for Game 4. The thought was the Bulls had a supporting cast that could hurt the Pistons in ways they couldn’t in ‘88 when it was used. But the supporting cast fizzled after helping to hold a lead for most of the first 2.5 quarters.


Don't worry about him. He is known for coming up with a twisted and dumb logic to fit his agenda. Not even an idiot would consider going up 2-1 as a HCA.
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Re: How can one argue MJ>Lebron and also have MJ> Russell? 

Post#266 » by Whopper_Sr » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:45 pm

So many people are still stuck in the "rings, accolades, and awards trump all" mind-set without even an attempt to dissect what each player brings to the court and how valuable their skill sets are.

The PC board does a much better job at diving into the details. This board has a LONG way to go. It's sad to see really.
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Re: How can one argue MJ>Lebron and also have MJ> Russell? 

Post#267 » by JonFromVA » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:58 pm

michaelm wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
michaelm wrote:Jordan was a stone cold killer, whether or not that is a good thing. LeBron is quite likely a more admirable human being, but a stone cold killer he is not and never was.


It's a lot easier to be a "stone cold killer" when you get all the whistles when you need them.

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, all 3 players are the greatest of their era, and that's about all we'll ever be able to say with any degree of certainty.


Sure, you got me. Imagine how great LeBron could have been if officialdom hadn’t been so set against him all his career.


Not what I said... certainly LeBron has benefited from the refs at times - especially against second rate teams, but there have been many times that wasn't the case in big games against top opponents.

Michael, otoh, started getting the favor of the refs before the Bulls had ever won anything and it lasted all the way until the last shot of his Bulls' career.

There were some serious problems with the NBA refs ... not because Tim Donaghy said so, but indicated by how the NBA flushed out the old Philly boys club. Weight training was something just coming in to vogue during Michael's time. International players were just starting to influence the league in Michael's time. Expansion was occuring, etc, etc.

Which is not to take anything away from what Michael or even Bill Russell accomplished, but it's all part of why trying to compare players across generations is beyond stupid. Any sort of fair/unbiased comparison is simply impossible.
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Re: How can one argue MJ>Lebron and also have MJ> Russell? 

Post#268 » by NZB2323 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:28 pm

The4thHorseman wrote:
NZB2323 wrote:Michael Jordan is undefeated in playoff series with homecourt advantage. Lebron lost in 09, 10, and 11 with homecourt and Russel lost in 58 with homecourt to a team with no black players. If you have homecourt advantage you're supposed to win and Jordan always did.

It's totally fair to have Jordan above both.

1989 ECF the Bulls went up 2-1 with game 4 being played in Chicago. That gave them home court advantage. They proceed to lose the next 3gms including game 5 which was MJ's biggest playoff game of his career and he only took 8FGA for the entire game.


The Pistons won 63 games that year and the Bulls won 47 games that year. A team that won 47 games isn't supposed to beat a team that won 63 games. The Bulls winning game 3 didn't mean they had homecourt for the whole series.

For that series Jordan averaged 30-7-6 and the only other Bulls who scored in double digits were Craig Hodges with 12 ppg and Bill Cartwright with 11 ppg. Pippen couldn't crack 10 ppg and shot 40%.
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Re: How can one argue MJ>Lebron and also have MJ> Russell? 

Post#269 » by TRKO » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:09 pm

The4thHorseman wrote:
chitownsports4ever wrote:
The4thHorseman wrote:

How am I embarrassing myself by asking a simple question that nobody's givin' me an answer to?


because if you have ever watched that series or seen that game it answers itself and any rational person wouldnt be trying to make these crazy comparisons .

Thats Jordan at the end of his 3rd title in a row basically snatching the game away from the jazz both offensively and defensively when he stole the ball from the MVP.

The only way to truthfully compare it is if you have actually have won three in a row before and the closest lebron came to that was in Miami and what happened he got sent home by the Spurs(4-1) . So no its not a simple question its another care of people elevating lebron to Jordans level by trying to slyly suggest that they have somehow accomplished the same things when they have not

It's not a crazy question to ask. One gets high praise for winning with underwhelming performances, while the other gets **** on for doing just the opposite.

Those Jazz wouldn't even had sniffed the Finals if they had to face GSW in those 4yrs the Cavs did. Watching Stockton and Hornacek trying to chase Steph would be hilarious.

That terrible Jazz team only beat a 61 win Laker team in the WCF.

Also comparing stats from today’s era to the 90s era is meaningless. The game was officiated and played much differently. I’m the 1998 series the bulls averaged 88 PPG with Jordan accounting for almost 40% of his team’s scoring. Jordan also played suffocating defense. No those aren’t eye popping stats Jordan posted, but Jordan did so many things that didn’t show up in the box score. He pulled his Bulls team with an ailing and declining Pippen and Rodman to a title. Jordan was also 34 and declining himself, but he got the job done.
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Re: How can one argue MJ>Lebron and also have MJ> Russell? 

Post#270 » by mysticOscar » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:59 pm

Because MJ has in general better advanced stats in RS and PS than Lebron and then u add his ringz and personal accolades his just better.

Lebron has longevity argument over MJ.

I dont know why LBJ fans makes it seem LBJ has better overall raw and advanced stats than MJ when he doesnt
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Re: How can one argue MJ>Lebron and also have MJ> Russell? 

Post#271 » by michaelm » Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:11 pm

The4thHorseman wrote:
michaelm wrote:
The4thHorseman wrote:Basically it comes down to this.

In 1998, MJ avg. 33-4-2 on 42% shooting, wIns the Finals, wins FMVP and still get's praised like no other. In 1996, he avg. 27-5-4 on 41% shooting and still goes on to win that Finals in pretty much easy fashion.

In 2017, James avg. 33-10-12 on 56% shooting and loses in 5gms. Yet he gets penalized for losing and supposedly not doing enough to bring his team to victory. In 2018, he avg. 34-8-10 on 52% shooting. Same as above, penalized for losing and not doing enough for his team.

So individual stats are better than actually winning?.

Who's stats above would a coach choose for his superstar to achieve that he would think gives the team the best opportunity to win?

The player who puts up his stats in a winning cause. Jordan was coachable, realised somewhere along his path that even he couldn’t win on his own, was prepared to follow a game plan which took the ball away from him to some extent, and didn’t attempt to be GM of the Bulls.

If Jordan had a better coach or played on teams with better constructed rosters than LeBron, that imo is partly on LeBron who has had a large say in regard to the rosters of his teams and who coached him for much of his career.

LeBron also fairly specifically set out to surpass Jordan, which I don’t think was the case with Jordan and Russell, and it seems to have only become about his stats for his fans and probably him as well when it became obvious later in his career that he was unlikely to win 6 rings. His career isn’t over of course, but I consider it likely Jerry West will prove to be the superior current LA basketball executive. Jordan is a fairly horrible basketball executive himself of course, which is part of the point.
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Re: How can one argue MJ>Lebron and also have MJ> Russell? 

Post#272 » by michaelm » Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:32 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
michaelm wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
It's a lot easier to be a "stone cold killer" when you get all the whistles when you need them.

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, all 3 players are the greatest of their era, and that's about all we'll ever be able to say with any degree of certainty.


Sure, you got me. Imagine how great LeBron could have been if officialdom hadn’t been so set against him all his career.


Not what I said... certainly LeBron has benefited from the refs at times - especially against second rate teams, but there have been many times that wasn't the case in big games against top opponents.

Michael, otoh, started getting the favor of the refs before the Bulls had ever won anything and it lasted all the way until the last shot of his Bulls' career.

There were some serious problems with the NBA refs ... not because Tim Donaghy said so, but indicated by how the NBA flushed out the old Philly boys club. Weight training was something just coming in to vogue during Michael's time. International players were just starting to influence the league in Michael's time. Expansion was occuring, etc, etc.

Which is not to take anything away from what Michael or even Bill Russell accomplished, but it's all part of why trying to compare players across generations is beyond stupid. Any sort of fair/unbiased comparison is simply impossible.

I was being sarcastic as I assume you realised, not positing that my contention was yours.

However weak the arguments with which you rightly take issue may be, trying to differentiate between 2 such superstars of the game on the basis of how favourably they were treated by officialdom is a weaker one.

I tend like many GSW fans btw to believe that favourable treatment by officialdom in the 2016 finals both in relation to Green’s suspension and how LeBron was refereed in the games subsequent to that helped LeBron and the Cavs win the title that year, but given I am sufficiently obsessed as a fan to post regularly on a forum such as this one, this may have similar substance to your argument in regard to how Jordan was refereed.
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Re: How can one argue MJ>Lebron and also have MJ> Russell? 

Post#273 » by TRKO » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:21 pm

mysticOscar wrote:Because MJ has in general better advanced stats in RS and PS than Lebron and then u add his ringz and personal accolades his just better.

Lebron has longevity argument over MJ.

I dont know why LBJ fans makes it seem LBJ has better overall raw and advanced stats than MJ when he doesnt

And the era LeBron is playing in now is geared more to offense which leads to inflated offensive stats.
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Re: How can one argue MJ>Lebron and also have MJ> Russell? 

Post#274 » by chitownsports4ever » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:54 am

The4thHorseman wrote:It's not a crazy question to ask. One gets high praise for winning with underwhelming performances, while the other gets **** on for doing just the opposite.

Those Jazz wouldn't even had sniffed the Finals if they had to face GSW in those 4yrs the Cavs did. Watching Stockton and Hornacek trying to chase Steph would be hilarious.



Yeah because as we know Jordans playoff performances are considered underwhelming... as I said embarrassing .

That 98 Jazz team beat the

Hakeem,Drexler,Barkley - Rockets
Robinson,Duncan - Spurs
Shaq,Kobe,Van Exel - Lakers

to get to the finals in 98.... yeah they would've been terrified :noway:
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Re: How can one argue MJ>Lebron and also have MJ> Russell? 

Post#275 » by JonFromVA » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:01 pm

michaelm wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
michaelm wrote:
Sure, you got me. Imagine how great LeBron could have been if officialdom hadn’t been so set against him all his career.


Not what I said... certainly LeBron has benefited from the refs at times - especially against second rate teams, but there have been many times that wasn't the case in big games against top opponents.

Michael, otoh, started getting the favor of the refs before the Bulls had ever won anything and it lasted all the way until the last shot of his Bulls' career.

There were some serious problems with the NBA refs ... not because Tim Donaghy said so, but indicated by how the NBA flushed out the old Philly boys club. Weight training was something just coming in to vogue during Michael's time. International players were just starting to influence the league in Michael's time. Expansion was occuring, etc, etc.

Which is not to take anything away from what Michael or even Bill Russell accomplished, but it's all part of why trying to compare players across generations is beyond stupid. Any sort of fair/unbiased comparison is simply impossible.

I was being sarcastic as I assume you realised, not positing that my contention was yours.

However weak the arguments with which you rightly take issue may be, trying to differentiate between 2 such superstars of the game on the basis of how favourably they were treated by officialdom is a weaker one.

I tend like many GSW fans btw to believe that favourable treatment by officialdom in the 2016 finals both in relation to Green’s suspension and how LeBron was refereed in the games subsequent to that helped LeBron and the Cavs win the title that year, but given I am sufficiently obsessed as a fan to post regularly on a forum such as this one, this may have similar substance to your argument in regard to how Jordan was refereed.


Fact is we both know how the refs choose to call the game has a major effect on the outcome and it's just another factor we struggle to deal with in the same era let alone across eras. Something tells me there will be more future fans who remember what James Harden got away with 30 years down the line ... but many will just hold up his numbers and say stuff like 36 ppg! 60 TS% 30.6 PER! Look at that peak!!!
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Re: How can one argue MJ>Lebron and also have MJ> Russell? 

Post#276 » by ATRAIN53 » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:14 pm

No one who posts here ever saw Russel play, so it's not a valid argument IMO.

Not one of us knows how good he really was. We just regurgitate the stores, see he won a ton of titles and the named the Finals MVP trophy after him.

But what would he average today in the NBA? Who is his comp? Duncan? Shaq?

The MJ vs Lebron Argument ends with the fact that once MJ scaled the mountain, no one pushed him off.
He climbed down himself after he slayed everyone and he got old and lonely sitting up there alone.
If not for age, he would still be still be there pushing guys off it when they got close.

I always say a peak LeBron vs peak MJ game would be them trading baskets for hours until LeBron quit.
MJ would refuse to quit until he won.

I could not tell you what MJ vs Russel game would be like.
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Re: How can one argue MJ>Lebron and also have MJ> Russell? 

Post#277 » by JeepCSC » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:20 pm

The comparison I always liked for Russell was a more polished Ben Wallace.
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Re: How can one argue MJ>Lebron and also have MJ> Russell? 

Post#278 » by tondi123 » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:29 pm

mysticOscar wrote:Because MJ has in general better advanced stats in RS and PS than Lebron and then u add his ringz and personal accolades his just better.

Lebron has longevity argument over MJ.

I dont know why LBJ fans makes it seem LBJ has better overall raw and advanced stats than MJ when he doesnt



And a big reason for Lebron having the longevity argument is that he was able to go pro straight from HS. He's certainly not aging any better than MJ up to this point. Add MJs last two college seasons (where he was an all american/Player of the year caliber player to the NBA and Lebron doesn't even win longevity any more. Sophomore/Junior MJ would have been a 20+ pt a game player in the NBA.
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Re: How can one argue MJ>Lebron and also have MJ> Russell? 

Post#279 » by Moon Walk » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:31 pm

Lebron = Ring Chaser
MJ = Rings chase him

/end of thread
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Re: How can one argue MJ>Lebron and also have MJ> Russell? 

Post#280 » by Jables » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:37 pm

No one ranks players by rings, even if it influences opinions, it's just something people say when they don't really want to have a discussion.

I don't see MJ as dwarfing Russell in terms of what he accomplished, but the eras are simply incomparable. For me it comes down to, was Russell undeniably a better player than Wilt? Nah people always go to 'well his teams defenses', people always talk about Russells team and not what HE did. Even if he's the GOAT of his era he didn't dwarf the rest, you could argue that just means he's all the stronger for it.

On the other hand MJ was incomparable to anyone in an era that's become mythical, guys that never won a ring are legendary 'because Barkley/Payton/Ewing had to go against MJ' and I've never heard that about Kobe or LeBron because they don't have that all conquering aura, you had a GOAT candidate at the time call him a god. Russell was the GOAT of his era, but that era is so different to the basketball we play now whereas 90s basketball will be comparable to modern basketball for a long time.

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