How can one argue MJ>Lebron and also have MJ> Russell?

[Bruteque]

Once you contrast the mental aspect, LeBron has basically a 0% chance of sniffing the GoATship, being even in the same conversation as other "there may be an argument for" guys like Russell, let alone challenging GoAT supreme Jordan.

GoATs don't get whipped mentally and visibly give up in series, as LeBron has done on more than one occasion for all to see. GoATs don't need the best player on the other team to re-injure his knee to smell blood in the water and push through. That is why the idea of LeBron even being in the conversation for GoATship is ludicrous and offensive.

That mental and emotional midget... Is. Not. A. GoAT. Candidate.

[ZB9]

There were 8 teams in the league when he started, thus a greater concentration of talent than in an expanded league. There were 14 teams when he retired.

yes i was using hyperbole lol

much of that talent was on the Celtics. Boston was certainly the most loaded team in that small league.

[Samurai]

There were like 5 teams in the entire league when Russell played.

yes i was using hyperbole lol

He made a huge impact on the game and in the country but Russell was not a better player than MJ.

There were 8 teams in the league when he started, thus a greater concentration of talent than in an expanded league. There were 14 teams when he retired.

and much of that talent was on the Celtics. Boston was certainly the most loaded team in that small league.

Statistically when you have a greater concentration of talent, you will tend to have more teams with similar records and fewer outliers. The Celtics were indeed a dominant team, but if you look at their roster and watched them play you realize that Russell was indeed the catalyst that made them such a great team. From 58-69, Boston was on pace to be a 35-win team (-1.9 SRS) when Russell was not playing. In the games that Russell played, Boston played at a 59-win pace (+6.4 SRS). Yes, Boston was the most dominant team, but you forgot to add that it was because of Bill Russell. Even with the other players on their roster, the WOWY stats confirm that they were far from dominant when Russell did not play; his impact was that immense.

[freethedevil]

1989 ECF the Bulls went up 2-1 with game 4 being played in Chicago. That gave them home court advantage. They proceed to lose the next 3gms including game 5 which was MJ's biggest playoff game of his career and he only took 8FGA for the entire game.

This will be swept under the rug.

No it wont it will simply be ignored because this is a basketball board and most of us know what Home court advantage means and winning a game in a series is not the same as coming into the series with HCA.

Jordan was DESTROYING the Pistons and they went up 2-1 on his 46 pts in game 3 . Thats when what we all have come to know as the Jordan rules went into effect and they basically decided anybody but Jordan would beat them and would do anything to stop him. The reason he had only 8 fga was because they were doubling and tripling him and guys were wide open so he was passing the ball to the open guy and they just couldn't capitalize . This is the reason Doug Collins was replaced by Phil Jackson after that series and it really wasn't Jordans biggest playoff game of his career at the time because the Pistons were battle tested and had been to the finals the year before and lost to the Lakers so most felt it was their time and everyone thought the Bulls were a year or two away . But these are things you simply dont know why just reading box scores and try to write theories off them.

Huh?

Are you really trying to say jordan's case is different because the pistons schemed against him? The mavericks defended against lebron radically different from the way other teams schemed against him. the raps scehmed against giannis in ways no one else in the league could even hope to replicate. These schemes took away the respective player's strengths and exposed their weaknesses. It wasn't just jordan was being double teamed, it's that jordan, like giannis, wasn't yet at his best as a passer and wasn't able to punish those double teams as well. Jordan didn't like jackson's triangle at first but eventually the following season he learned to adjust and become a better playmaker as a result. Much like how lebron's jumpshot improved after the mavs exposed it with the best zone in the league.


I also have no idea why you're brining up "what people thought". How is perception relevant here? The mavs had the highest srs in the league and had gone through muderer's row to get to the final. They then got red hot in the final with their offence getting better against one of the best defences in the league. They were coached by someone who took one of the GOAT teams(2014 spurs) to 7 with a lesser cast.

The raptors won the chip and had arguably the greatest defensive playoff run save for the pistons.
There's nothing wrong with applying context. But acting like said context makes player x different than all the other players is hilarious.

What Jordan faced with the pistons is all things lebron, giannis, curry, harden, and shaq have faced different variations of.

And yes, to that point in his career, it was the biggest game. He would have bigger games to follow. Not that getting to bigger games and failing is somehow better than failing in smaller games...