'Kawhi ended the Warriors dynasty'

Moderators: PockyCandy, ken6199, bwgood77, BombsquadSammy, Domejandro, Prez, Dirk, zimpy27, Yuri Vaultin

Jables
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,334
And1: 1,039
Joined: Jul 21, 2014
   

Re: 'Kawhi ended the Warriors dynasty' 

Post#161 » by Jables » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:57 pm

Who cares, Kyrie and Love played a combined one game in the 2015 finals, but the reason everyone still thought the Warriors were better was because they won. The only reason everyone was like RIP for the next few years was because Durant signed. We all saw Warriors fans claim Durant was so important to the teams success, now you wanna act like the Warriors are still the best without him? They may not have needed him, but he removed any doubt.

Sure they can contend if Klay comes back healthy but how can anyone pretend to presume the dynasty is still on? Injuries are a part of the game, Curry gonna be 32, Klay gonna be 30 coming back from an ACL, defense just lost Durant and Iguodola. Backcourt is leakier and they still have all their old problems.

Kawhi, and I don't even like Kawhi, likely ended the Warriors dynasty. The Rockets had their shot
Joerezz7
Junior
Posts: 377
And1: 266
Joined: Nov 22, 2015

Re: 'Kawhi ended the Warriors dynasty' 

Post#162 » by Joerezz7 » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:14 pm

Jables wrote:Who cares, Kyrie and Love played a combined one game in the 2015 finals, but the reason everyone still thought the Warriors were better was because they won. The only reason everyone was like RIP for the next few years was because Durant signed. We all saw Warriors fans claim Durant was so important to the teams success, now you wanna act like the Warriors are still the best without him? They may not have needed him, but he removed any doubt.

Sure they can contend if Klay comes back healthy but how can anyone pretend to presume the dynasty is still on? Injuries are a part of the game, Curry gonna be 32, Klay gonna be 30 coming back from an ACL, defense just lost Durant and Iguodola. Backcourt is leakier and they still have all their old problems.

Kawhi, and I don't even like Kawhi, likely ended the Warriors dynasty. The Rockets had their shot


2015 Finals was a fluke. It showed the following year when they lost to a healthy Cavs team. Warriors can’t win rings without Durant. It showed in this years Finals and the 2016 Finals. The dynasty ended when KD left.

Another thing this ain’t the 2016 73 win roster of the Warriors. This is the worse roster they had since 2014 or 2013, before they started making Finals appearances
kali323
Ballboy
Posts: 41
And1: 26
Joined: Apr 25, 2012

Re: 'Kawhi ended the Warriors dynasty' 

Post#163 » by kali323 » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:18 pm

2015 was no fluke. Otherwise how did they get a 3-1 lead against a healthy cavs and everything fell apart after Draymond suspension and bogut injury. And yet game 7 came to the final min. People act like the 2016 cavs swept the warriors

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
Jazztop
Senior
Posts: 748
And1: 644
Joined: Jan 11, 2018
     

Re: 'Kawhi ended the Warriors dynasty' 

Post#164 » by Jazztop » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:30 pm

BayArea408415 wrote:
Jazztop wrote:But yet they lost 3 out of the 5 games Klay played.

Funny how that whole pesky math thing can interfere with our salty narratives

I could have sworn one of those 3 games was the series deciding Game 6 where Klay was shooting out of his mind before he tore his ACL and left the game with the Warriors up 4. He missed the final 14 minutes. :-?

Up 4. You realize Kawhi’s Spurs were up 23 in 2017? You going to anoint them the would be winners of 16-17? No? Can we anoint the Rockets the would be winners of 17-18? Clearly better until CP3 went down by your logic? No?

But yes, it’s predictable. Excuses excuses. It’s been over a month and that’s all we hear still. The Warriors were beaten by the superior team and superior organization. The Raptors managed their roster better, they managed their workload better, had better depth and clearly better medical staff. Wasn’t it the warriors owner who said they were “lightyears ahead”?

What a pitiful fanbase.
User avatar
RaptorsLife
RealGM
Posts: 48,143
And1: 81,799
Joined: Feb 16, 2015
Location: Brampton
   

Re: 'Kawhi ended the Warriors dynasty' 

Post#165 » by RaptorsLife » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:35 pm

The warriors last 3 games in oracle in finals

They deserved to lose injuries or not
Raptors til death
Joerezz7
Junior
Posts: 377
And1: 266
Joined: Nov 22, 2015

Re: 'Kawhi ended the Warriors dynasty' 

Post#166 » by Joerezz7 » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:39 pm

kali323 wrote:2015 was no fluke. Otherwise how did they get a 3-1 lead against a healthy cavs and everything fell apart after Draymond suspension and bogut injury. And yet game 7 came to the final min. People act like the 2016 cavs swept the warriors

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


It was definitely a fluke and the Cavs beat the Warriors 3 straight games. Draymond Green was only suspended for ONE game. Like you said it came down to the last minute. Draymond had a great game 7 but didn’t get any help because Curry and Klay choked. Kyrie showed him who the better player was and who was more clutch by banging that clutch 3 in Curry face
jamaalstar21
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,316
And1: 2,365
Joined: Jul 21, 2016
 

Re: 'Kawhi ended the Warriors dynasty' 

Post#167 » by jamaalstar21 » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:48 pm

canadiansporter wrote:
nbafan38 wrote:
canadiansporter wrote:I don't think he ended their dynasty but he definitely isn't overrated.

Considering he's a late bloomer and came into the league as purely a defensive player, he's finally getting the recognition he deserves... This coming from a Toronto fan that is quite upset that he left.

He's won 2 championship, has 2 finals MVPs and DPOYs, and he's only entering his prime now at 28.

He's made a HUGE jump offensively from his 2017 season to today. That on top of still being one of the best defenders. He's also proven to be a killer and being able to lead a team - something people questioned from his days in San Antonio. People don't put enough value in defense unless the player is also a top offensive player, and he's now proven that he is.

He's polished on both ends now and being beside another outstanding 2-way wing player will be quite a sight to see.


He is starting to get overrated in terms of how people are talking about him (GOAT Conversation, I've seen him compared to prime Lebron in threads on here). He is very very good but he is not an all time great and it's debatable if he's even the best player in the league right now.


Agreed. I personally have him #1a right now tied with Curry... LeBron was out last season, KD is out, he went h2h with Giannis and won. BUT he is definitely not the guaranteed #1 in the league.

And definitely not in the GOAT conversation by any means. But if you have KD in the top 25 range all time, you gotta put Kawhi right in that same range. What he lacks in pure scoring ability he trumps KD defensively. Same rings and fMVPs. I have them in the same range at this point. Kawhi's ceiling is looking higher though, depending how KD recovers.


i think the Kawhi GOAT discussion things, while certainly premature, are based on what could now happen in his career based on his prior accomplishments. It's like a what if: The Clippers win the championship and Kawhi get another finals MVP this year. He'll have led 3 very different teams to championships. That alone would get him in on the fringes of the goat conversation because it has a narrative edge. You start to wonder, maybe Kawhi is the guy you pick first if you want to win 1 playoff series. Kawhi, more than anyone since Jordan is a guy who is gonna win his matchup. He's scoring on you, and he's making it hard for you to score. Being close to a consensus GOAT is different from being in the discussion. Shaq is in the goat discussion because it doesn't seem like you could have a player more devastating than peak Shaq, even if his career doesn't stack up to Kareem or Jordan or Magic. Bird is in the discussion for similar reasons, because at his peak he was the most complete player imaginable while being one of the meanest competitors that existed. Kawhi's legacy is starting to earn him mentions and questions and I don't think there's anything wrong about that.
Jay 20
Rookie
Posts: 1,065
And1: 774
Joined: Jun 21, 2015
 

Re: 'Kawhi ended the Warriors dynasty' 

Post#168 » by Jay 20 » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:53 pm

Jazztop wrote:
BayArea408415 wrote:
Jazztop wrote:But yet they lost 3 out of the 5 games Klay played.

Funny how that whole pesky math thing can interfere with our salty narratives

I could have sworn one of those 3 games was the series deciding Game 6 where Klay was shooting out of his mind before he tore his ACL and left the game with the Warriors up 4. He missed the final 14 minutes. :-?

Up 4. You realize Kawhi’s Spurs were up 23 in 2017? You going to anoint them the would be winners of 16-17? No? Can we anoint the Rockets the would be winners of 17-18? Clearly better until CP3 went down by your logic? No?

But yes, it’s predictable. Excuses excuses. It’s been over a month and that’s all we hear still. The Warriors were beaten by the superior team and superior organization. The Raptors managed their roster better, they managed their workload better, had better depth and clearly better medical staff. Wasn’t it the warriors owner who said they were “lightyears ahead”?

What a pitiful fanbase.


If the Spurs series in 2017 was a little bit closer after Kawhi went down then I'd admit that injury mattered more. The Warriors won game 2 by 36. It wasn't a close series after the injury. Definitely would have been a better series but I still don't think the Spurs win it.

The Rockets would have beat us with Chris Paul. I'm fully on board with that one. They actually almost did without him having huge first half leads in Games 6&7.

But the better organization and team comment is extreme. They may of had the better team then the Warriors minus KD and they were definitely better in Game 3 and the final 14 minutes of Game 6 without Klay. They flat out beat GS when Klay was healthy too so that's important to note.

The thing that gets me is why people hate acknowledging that good fortune contributed to the Raptors winning. I've fully acknowledged when it's benefited the Warriors because it has. But with the Raptors beating the Warriors it's simply because they were the better team/organization? It's not that simple.
PizzaSteve
Starter
Posts: 2,124
And1: 1,394
Joined: May 05, 2015
     

Re: 'Kawhi ended the Warriors dynasty' 

Post#169 » by PizzaSteve » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:02 pm

Jay 20 wrote:
Jazztop wrote:
BayArea408415 wrote:I could have sworn one of those 3 games was the series deciding Game 6 where Klay was shooting out of his mind before he tore his ACL and left the game with the Warriors up 4. He missed the final 14 minutes. :-?

Up 4. You realize Kawhi’s Spurs were up 23 in 2017? You going to anoint them the would be winners of 16-17? No? Can we anoint the Rockets the would be winners of 17-18? Clearly better until CP3 went down by your logic? No?

But yes, it’s predictable. Excuses excuses. It’s been over a month and that’s all we hear still. The Warriors were beaten by the superior team and superior organization. The Raptors managed their roster better, they managed their workload better, had better depth and clearly better medical staff. Wasn’t it the warriors owner who said they were “lightyears ahead”?

What a pitiful fanbase.


If the Spurs series in 2017 was a little bit closer after Kawhi went down then I'd admit that injury mattered more. The Warriors won game 2 by 36. It wasn't a close series after the injury. Definitely would have been a better series but I still don't think the Spurs win it.

The Rockets would have beat us with Chris Paul. I'm fully on board with that one. They actually almost did without him having huge first half leads in Games 6&7.

But the better organization and team comment is extreme. They may of had the better team then the Warriors minus KD and they were definitely better in Game 3 and the final 14 minutes of Game 6 without Klay. They flat out beat GS when Klay was healthy too so that's important to note.

The thing that gets me is why people hate acknowledging that good fortune contributed to the Raptors winning. I've fully acknowledged when it's benefited the Warriors because it has. But with the Raptors beating the Warriors it's simply because they were the better team/organization? It's not that simple.


Please. Rational dialog in a thread like this? The same people who complained it wasnt fair, wrecked league, 5 all stars, now say Toronto is a dynasty killer, because after they added two west all stars to the best and among the deepest regular season teams in the east, they won a close series (against a GS squad where 4 of 5 all stars and our best big were recovering from or actively injured...Curry had dislocated finger, Boogie rushing back from quad, Klay a hamstring, etc.).

They earned the title, however. Assembled a great team, stayed healthy, had role players step up. Its always the case that the best team won. GS best in 15, Clev, in 16, Toronto in 19, etc. Anyway the x would have done y, if only, comments are garbage.

But its the off season. Enjoy.
killmongrel
Junior
Posts: 343
And1: 148
Joined: Sep 18, 2018
 

Re: 'Kawhi ended the Warriors dynasty' 

Post#170 » by killmongrel » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:11 pm

Warriors had a fluke championship because of injuries.

But other teams had legit championships regardless of injuries and other variables to the Warriors.

Seems logical.
lolathon234
Junior
Posts: 482
And1: 447
Joined: Jun 17, 2017

Re: 'Kawhi ended the Warriors dynasty' 

Post#171 » by lolathon234 » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:22 pm

Do they even make the finals in 2015 if Durant’s foot doesn’t require a secondary procedure mid season and keep him out the rest of the year? The 2016 Warriors were clearly superior to the 2015 iteration as pretty much everyone on the team improved between those 2 seasons, not to mention their confidence from winning a championship ha a profound effect on the team.

In 2016, Durant had the 73 win Warriors down 3-1 and for the majority of that time it appeared as if Golden State didn’t even belong on the same court as OkC. How would a 2015 WCF gone down if it was Golden State vs a healthy OKC team with Durant? OKC would have been prohibitive favorites, something the Warriors never faced during their run in 2015 & 16 and they would have had nowhere near the confidence they had in 2016. Durant would have been considered to be far and away the best player on the court and very likely the b2b MVP, remember he had just averaged 32-8-6 63 TS% the previous year. Steph Curry’s 23.8/4.4/7.7 63.8 TS% on a 67 win team wasn’t winning MVP over a healthy Durant if he simply maintained his averages from the 2 years prior, 30.1/7.6/5.1 64.1 TS% 30 PER .300 WSp48 19-20 Win Shares on a 60 win team. Not to mention the fact that Durant obliterated the Warriors by himself in 3 of the final 4 matchups prior to being ruled out the remainder of the 2015 season and was far and away the best player on the court.

January 17, 2014 he dropped 54/4/6 80.1 TS% in a 7 point win and Russell Westbrook didn’t even play. Curry had 37/3/11 81.0 TS%

December 18, 2014 Durant single handedly torched the 22-3 Warriors in Oracle dropping 30/2/2 93.3 TS% in 18 MINUTES before re-injuring his foot in the 2nd quarter and missing the rest of the game. Curry had 17/2/6 68.3 TS%

January 18, 2015 36/9/4 89.1 TS% in a blowout win against the 31-5 Warriors. Curry had 19/3/6 62.6 TS%

I guess people just forgot that the even the 2015 championship Warriors team had no answer for Durant. Unfortunately OKC’s team dynamic changed after Westbrook took over the team during the latter half of that season with Durant out and it never went back, which precipitated the breakup in 2016.







Draymond guarded Durant for most of those possessions. KD scored 120 points on 43-
58(74.1%) shooting, 13-20(65%) from 3 in 10 quarters of basketball. His eFG%(.854) was higher than his FT%(.840) in those games
lolathon234
Junior
Posts: 482
And1: 447
Joined: Jun 17, 2017

Re: 'Kawhi ended the Warriors dynasty' 

Post#172 » by lolathon234 » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:38 pm

Also can anyone explain to me why San Antonio would have had a chance against the Warriors? An even better Spurs similarly blew out an inferior OkC team the year prior in game 1 and then Durant proceeded to run Leonard off the court the remainder of the series. Are we going to pretend that Leonard was going to beat a Golden State team by himself when the year prior proved he couldn’t beat Durant with an even better supporting cast? Now he’s magically going to beat him while he’s surrounded by a 2X MVP, the DPOY and one of the other best shooters to ever pickup a basketball? You guys are hysterical.

And nothing has changed, Durant decimated Leonard every time they were on the same court together this year as well(RS,ASG and Finals) and dropped 51/11/9 75 TS% on Kawhi in Toronto earlier this season and Draymond/Steph didn’t even play that game.

We all saw the first 14 minutes of game 5. Durant with 1 good leg looked like the best player in the world and that entire arena was shellshocked as the fans had quickly realized that THIS Golden State team was a different animal from the one they’d gone up 3-1 on.

In those first 14 minutes, Curry scored 14 points on 5-6 shooting, after KD’s injury he had 17 on 5-17 FGA.

Klay scored 11 points on 4-7 FG 3-4 3P, he had 15 points on 5-14 FGA 4-9 3P the rest of the game

And the Raptors superstar Kawhi Leonard had all but disappeared into the shadow of Kevin Durant, scoring 6 points on 40.32 Ts% and committing 3 turnovers prior to the injury. And 6 points makes it appear better than it was, in reality it was much worse. Half of those came via transition and-1 layup while Durant was off the floor, with him on it he had as many turnovers as points and his single made FG in 5 attempts was an uncontested layup after an offensive rebound

The Warriors had a 143.7 ORTG during the first 14 minutes of game 5 and were on pace to score 134 points. It dropped to 102.7 after and the Warriors scored 67 points in 34 minutes, 94.5 ppg pace.
michaelm
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,898
And1: 1,880
Joined: Apr 06, 2010
 

Re: 'Kawhi ended the Warriors dynasty' 

Post#173 » by michaelm » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:56 pm

TheWhiteMamba wrote:
michaelm wrote:To say nothing of the invisibility suit ZaZa wore when he caused Kawhi’s 2 previous ankle injuries. Like GSW and Durant this year, the Spurs/Popovich cared more about winning a game in the play-offs than Kawhi’s long term health.

I 100% agree with you about San Antonio and GSW ignoring long term health of KL and KD...

Zaza didn't cause Kawhi's previous injuries, but willingly cheapshotted him to death, perfectly knowing he was already injured.
When you look at Zaza's demeanor on the court, during his career, it's obvious he wanted to hurt Leonard.
I don't put the blame on the Warriors, but on Zaza.

Anyway I was replying to the OP's statement. Anyone can argue and have their beliefs, but we know for sure only FACTS.
Fact is the Raptors won this year. I really believe a healty Dubs team win it all, but we don't know this for sure.
I don't know if without Zaza's cheapshots GSW would have lost that year. Fact is Zaza did what he did. Fact is that the Warriors won the title.

I have debated this at length. ZaZa is a clumsy oaf who injured a player on his own team, one Kevin Durant, that same year worse than he injured Kawhi. I have argued on a number of occasions that he is too clumsy to be allowed to play NBA basketball particularly given his bulk.

I don’t absolve him of having any ill intent either, trying to intimidate opposition players was a significant part of his Schlick, but I don’t believe he deliberately injured Kawhi, he would have needed eyes in the back of his head for a start, and my point about the previous 2 injuries is that it is hard to know how much each contributed to him eventually being out. He was sent back out after the second injury having started the game not fully healed from the first one. I have been told it was his choice/desire to go back out there, but the same was reputedly true of Durant in this year’s finals.
User avatar
C3H6N6O6
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,627
And1: 2,068
Joined: Feb 04, 2014

Re: 'Kawhi ended the Warriors dynasty' 

Post#174 » by C3H6N6O6 » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:00 pm

sca wrote:
ropjhk wrote:People like to bring up all of the Warriors injuries, but only Durant's injury really mattered. The Raptors were clearly better than the Warriors without Durant and would have won the series even if the other players remained healthy.

This. Why do people act like we weren’t 3-2 in the games in which Klay played? The way people talk, you’d think that the Warriors were up 2-0 w/ Klay and then he got injured and the Raptors won the remaining 4 games.

You were 2-2 in the games Klay played till the end. Stop manipulating truth to tell lies.
User avatar
Arman_tanzarian
Starter
Posts: 2,238
And1: 2,278
Joined: Dec 27, 2012
     

Re: 'Kawhi ended the Warriors dynasty' 

Post#175 » by Arman_tanzarian » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:09 pm

JellosJigglin wrote:The media has a way of taking a grain of truth and turning it into a mountain. Toronto won because they had a deeper, healthier team. The Warriors will be right back in the championship mix next season when Klay gets back. They'd be the champs right now if Klay never got hurt. They still have the core pieces that won them 73 games and now you add DLo. Crazy that people are writing them off.


Lol suuuuuuurrrrrrrreee.
Image
User avatar
DonaldSanders
Senior
Posts: 622
And1: 412
Joined: Jan 22, 2012
     

Re: 'Kawhi ended the Warriors dynasty' 

Post#176 » by DonaldSanders » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:21 pm

RaptorsLife wrote:The warriors last 3 games in oracle in finals

They deserved to lose injuries or not



If the Warriors weren't injured, the Raptors would have been lucky to win 1 game in the whole series. You also realize the Raptors only won 1 home game even with all the GS injuries, right?

Joerezz7 wrote:2015 Finals was a fluke. It showed the following year when they lost to a healthy Cavs team. Warriors can’t win rings without Durant. It showed in this years Finals and the 2016 Finals. The dynasty ended when KD left.



Warriors weren't healthy (not as bad as Cavs in 2015, but it made a difference if you're bringing up injuries), and the Cavs got a freebie in Draymond being suspended one game.
User avatar
DonaldSanders
Senior
Posts: 622
And1: 412
Joined: Jan 22, 2012
     

Re: 'Kawhi ended the Warriors dynasty' 

Post#177 » by DonaldSanders » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:22 pm

Arman_tanzarian wrote:
JellosJigglin wrote:The media has a way of taking a grain of truth and turning it into a mountain. Toronto won because they had a deeper, healthier team. The Warriors will be right back in the championship mix next season when Klay gets back. They'd be the champs right now if Klay never got hurt. They still have the core pieces that won them 73 games and now you add DLo. Crazy that people are writing them off.


Lol suuuuuuurrrrrrrreee.




I think it's fair to say there would have been a game 7 and who knows who would have won.
User avatar
RaptorsLife
RealGM
Posts: 48,143
And1: 81,799
Joined: Feb 16, 2015
Location: Brampton
   

Re: 'Kawhi ended the Warriors dynasty' 

Post#178 » by RaptorsLife » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:25 pm

DonaldSanders wrote:
RaptorsLife wrote:The warriors last 3 games in oracle in finals

They deserved to lose injuries or not



If the Warriors weren't injured, the Raptors would have been lucky to win 1 game in the whole series. You also realize the Raptors only won 1 home game even with all the GS injuries, right?

Joerezz7 wrote:2015 Finals was a fluke. It showed the following year when they lost to a healthy Cavs team. Warriors can’t win rings without Durant. It showed in this years Finals and the 2016 Finals. The dynasty ended when KD left.



Warriors weren't healthy (not as bad as Cavs in 2015, but it made a difference if you're bringing up injuries), and the Cavs got a freebie in Draymond being suspended one game.

And raptors weren’t really healthy especially Kawhi during finals.

But okay just keep twisting the truth to fit narrative


According to you. Warriors who swept the blazers last round without KD were not healthy in finals thus raptors and kawhi are frauds

But 2015 warriors who beat cavs without Kevin love and kyrie after game 1 are legitimate??

What a load of bs
Raptors til death
User avatar
druggas
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,566
And1: 2,252
Joined: Dec 27, 2007

Re: 'Kawhi ended the Warriors dynasty' 

Post#179 » by druggas » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:28 pm

John Murdoch wrote:Op went from riding durants sack to trying to discredit Kawhi at every step . Gimmie a break

This.
Cresy06
Junior
Posts: 331
And1: 307
Joined: Jun 28, 2016
   

Re: 'Kawhi ended the Warriors dynasty' 

Post#180 » by Cresy06 » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:29 pm

The Warriors were on the verge of becoming a dynasty without Durant, 2 straight finals appearances, 1 title.
Then Durant joined and they won 2 more, they became a Dynasty. Ok.
Now he left, and the Dynasty is over? What if they make it to another final appearance or a another Championship? Is it a NEW Dynasty? NO it will just keep going. We don't know if it's over or not, maybe they won't make it this year, but they will make it again next year with everyone healthy again.

Let's not kid ourselves, the Warriors would have beaten this Raptors team if they would have been a bit more healthy.

If you think the Dynasty is over because they let Iggy and Livingston go, PLEAAASE, they were good players, but they're easy to replace, especially now that they really old. They started to become replaceable 2 years ago.

Return to The General Board