RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#9 2019-20

[GQ Hot Dog]

Nom Klay Thompson

[iggymcfrack]

PG13 last superstar left. Seems to be a big gap between him and Lillard IMO. Led the league in RPM last year. Similar offensive impact while miles better on defense. Surprised the vote is close honestly.

[GeorgeMarcus]

PG13 last superstar left. Seems to be a big gap between him and Lillard IMO. Led the league in RPM last year. Similar offensive impact while miles better on defense. Surprised the vote is close honestly.

Lillard was better/had better RPM the 2 years prior. I voted George but it’s a worthy debate imo.

[iggymcfrack]

Kevin Durant is by far best out of these ten players, Paul George 2nd best, but I voted for Lillard because George is going to miss in October and November around 15 games, and Durant will miss in October, November, December, January, February, March, and April around 82 games.

Nominate Kemba Walker.

What makes you think George is likely to miss 15 games at the beginning of the season? I just did a quick search on some fantasy sites and they said the latest update is that he’s “likely to miss pre-season”. There’s obviously always some risk with a player who finished the season hurt compared to someone who was healthy when we saw them last, but it seems likely that George should be pretty close to 100% for the season.

[iggymcfrack]

PG13 last superstar left. Seems to be a big gap between him and Lillard IMO. Led the league in RPM last year. Similar offensive impact while miles better on defense. Surprised the vote is close honestly.

Lillard was better/had better RPM the 2 years prior. I voted George but it’s a worthy debate imo.

Ok, fair enough. Even if you average the last 3 years though, it just comes out to a push, and its only fair to weight the more recent year more heavily. Also in that recent season, George showed a much higher ceiling than Dame may be capable of as when he combines all the facets of his game, he’s able to have legit MVP impact whereas Dame will always be a small PG that isn’t great defensively who’s very good but not elite as a distributor. George has also been much more impactful in the playoffs (career on/off of +16.4 compared to -0.1).

Also, I feel like Dame’s the kind of player who’s likely to be a little bit situationally overrated by impact stats. In Portland, he’s THE GUY with no one else to reliably create offense so of course he’s super crucial there as a fit issue, but I’m not sure if he’d be able to have a similar impact on a team that’s good enough to win a championship. Kinda like the argument people make about Draymond only putting up such elite impact numbers because he plays on an elite scoring/shooting team that needs exactly what he can give, except Draymond’s proven his skills fit within a championship team and Dame hasn’t. Dame’s ideal fit situation which he’s in currently might actively preclude you from winning a championship.

[iggymcfrack]

Lillard beat both PG and Jokic in the playoffs with a lesser healthy supporting cast than both.

In the 204 minutes where George was on the floor vs. Portland, the Thunder outscored the Blazers by 3. In the 36 minutes he was on the bench, they were outscored by 32. OKC might have had the better supporting cast on paper, but in terms of how they actually played, Portland’s was much, much better.

Westbrook was actively torpedoing the Thunder by refusing to accept how poorly he was playing and continuing to shoot the Thunder out of those games. The last 3 losses he shot 5/20 from the field, 5/21, and 11/31. Not only did he play poorly, but he kept the ball out of George’s hands as well. If he missed the entire series with injury, I don’t think anyone would be saying George had the better supporting cast, but it likely would have been a much more competitive series.

[iggymcfrack]

Simmons seems like a decent choice to nominate here. When he went #22 last year, the knock on him was that he got “exposed” in the playoffs and his lack of shooting would render him useless against championship caliber defenses. Well, against a real championship caliber defense in Toronto, in a fit situation where his creation would be most redundant and his shooting would most be an issue alongside Butler and Embiid, he had a positive on/off and the second best ORtg on the team. Furthermore, we’re coming off a season where the league MVP and the #2 player in this vote has all the same shooting issues that Simmons does. Simmons seems like a decent bet to make a small leap this season (in terms of basketball ability) and a bigger leap in terms of numbers/impact playing alongside J-Rich and Horford instead of Butler and Redick.

[sixers4real]

Nominate Ben Simmons

[Roddy B for 3]

I voted Lillard and ask Doncic to be added

[Roddy B for 3]

Lillard beat both PG and Jokic in the playoffs with a lesser healthy supporting cast than both.

In the 204 minutes where George was on the floor vs. Portland, the Thunder outscored the Blazers by 3. In the 36 minutes he was on the bench, they were outscored by 32. OKC might have had the better supporting cast on paper, but in terms of how they actually played, Portland’s was much, much better.

Westbrook was actively torpedoing the Thunder by refusing to accept how poorly he was playing and continuing to shoot the Thunder out of those games. The last 3 losses he shot 5/20 from the field, 5/21, and 11/31. Not only did he play poorly, but he kept the ball out of George’s hands as well. If he missed the entire series with injury, I don’t think anyone would be saying George had the better supporting cast, but it likely would have been a much more competitive series.

It would be interesting to see what percentage of minutes Lillard played when PG13 was off the floor.

Seeing Lilards on off against OKC would be interesting too.

[Zespetjest]

PG,
nominate Luka

[Stribor]

Dame, nominate Simmons

[Gooner]

Durant should be removed.

[Gooner]

PG13 last superstar left. Seems to be a big gap between him and Lillard IMO. Led the league in RPM last year. Similar offensive impact while miles better on defense. Surprised the vote is close honestly.

Lillard is not a superstar now? You were making the argument recently that he took bunch of trash to conference finals. He beat PG in the process, and your guy Jokic.

[iggymcfrack]

PG13 last superstar left. Seems to be a big gap between him and Lillard IMO. Led the league in RPM last year. Similar offensive impact while miles better on defense. Surprised the vote is close honestly.

Lillard is not a superstar now? You were making the argument recently that he took bunch of trash to conference finals. He beat PG in the process, and your guy Jokic.

I mean, he's a very, very good player, sure, but I can't see him possibly being the best player in the league this year or even a really serious MVP candidate. I think all of the Top 9 guys are capable of that. It was definitely a very impressive accomplishment the cast he took to the conference finals, but it was also a little fluky in that Westbrook played terrible while George was hurt for OKC, and then the Nuggets' supporting cast wasn't ready for primetime yet and choked. I don't think Portland would have beaten Houston, Milwaukee, or Philly if they had to face them. Al Horford led a pretty weak cast to the conference finals last year. Isaiah Thomas did it the year before. Neither one of them was at legitimate top of the league superstar status. Again, Lillard played great in the playoffs and I don't wanna downgrade him, but I just think he's closer to the top second tier guys like Butler, Draymond, and Lowry than he is to the Curry/Harden/Embiid/Jokic group. George has a legitimate argument as a top 5 player in the league and he belongs with the super-duperstars.

[Clyde Frazier]

Next: kemba

[Gooner]

PG13 last superstar left. Seems to be a big gap between him and Lillard IMO. Led the league in RPM last year. Similar offensive impact while miles better on defense. Surprised the vote is close honestly.

Lillard is not a superstar now? You were making the argument recently that he took bunch of trash to conference finals. He beat PG in the process, and your guy Jokic.

I mean, he's a very, very good player, sure, but I can't see him possibly being the best player in the league this year or even a really serious MVP candidate. I think all of the Top 9 guys are capable of that. It was definitely a very impressive accomplishment the cast he took to the conference finals, but it was also a little fluky in that Westbrook played terrible while George was hurt for OKC, and then the Nuggets' supporting cast wasn't ready for primetime yet and choked. I don't think Portland would have beaten Houston, Milwaukee, or Philly if they had to face them. Al Horford led a pretty weak cast to the conference finals last year. Isaiah Thomas did it the year before. Neither one of them was at legitimate top of the league superstar status. Again, Lillard played great in the playoffs and I don't wanna downgrade him, but I just think he's closer to the top second tier guys like Butler, Draymond, and Lowry than he is to the Curry/Harden/Embiid/Jokic group. George has a legitimate argument as a top 5 player in the league and he belongs with the super-duperstars.

First of all, you can't compare ECF to WCF, it's different type of competition. If Portland had Nurkic healthy, they would challenge for the best record in the west, and Lillard would be a strong MVP cnadidate. Nuggets were inexperienced, but that team was tough to beat, especially without home court advantage. Winning that game 7 is a defining moment for Lillard as a leader. You claim Jokic is a superior player, but he had a better, deeper supporting cast, and still lost to Dame's team.

[iggymcfrack]

Lillard is not a superstar now? You were making the argument recently that he took bunch of trash to conference finals. He beat PG in the process, and your guy Jokic.

I mean, he's a very, very good player, sure, but I can't see him possibly being the best player in the league this year or even a really serious MVP candidate. I think all of the Top 9 guys are capable of that. It was definitely a very impressive accomplishment the cast he took to the conference finals, but it was also a little fluky in that Westbrook played terrible while George was hurt for OKC, and then the Nuggets' supporting cast wasn't ready for primetime yet and choked. I don't think Portland would have beaten Houston, Milwaukee, or Philly if they had to face them. Al Horford led a pretty weak cast to the conference finals last year. Isaiah Thomas did it the year before. Neither one of them was at legitimate top of the league superstar status. Again, Lillard played great in the playoffs and I don't wanna downgrade him, but I just think he's closer to the top second tier guys like Butler, Draymond, and Lowry than he is to the Curry/Harden/Embiid/Jokic group. George has a legitimate argument as a top 5 player in the league and he belongs with the super-duperstars.

First of all, you can't compare ECF to WCF, it's different type of competition. If Portland had Nurkic healthy, they would challenge for the best record in the west, and Lillard would be a strong MVP cnadidate. Nuggets were inexperienced, but that team was tough to beat, especially without home court advantage. Winning that game 7 is a defining moment for Lillard as a leader. You claim Jokic is a superior player, but he had a better, deeper supporting cast, and still lost to Dame's team.

The individual game plus/minuses in that series for Jokic we’re +16, +2, +5, +17, +26, -5, and -2. If Jokic gets any help from his bench the series is over in 4 or 5 games and the Nuggets are moving on. Meanwhile Lillard was -6, +4, +4, -8, -22, -2, and -8. He was lucky to even be in it. Then in the winner-take-all Game 7, Jokic puts up 29 and 13 with 4 blocks while Lillard scores 13 points on 3/17 shooting.

I agree that the Nuggets had the more talented supporting cast, but they also had the youngest roster in the NBA, nerves got to everyone a little bit (except for Jokic), and they didn’t perform to anywhere near their normal level. You can’t use them as a measuring stick to say Lillard was the better player that series. Hell, Lillard wasn’t even the best player on his own team that series, let alone the best player in the series overall. CJ was the one who carried the Blazers over the finish line the last 2 games when Dame fell apart.

[Gooner]

I mean, he's a very, very good player, sure, but I can't see him possibly being the best player in the league this year or even a really serious MVP candidate. I think all of the Top 9 guys are capable of that. It was definitely a very impressive accomplishment the cast he took to the conference finals, but it was also a little fluky in that Westbrook played terrible while George was hurt for OKC, and then the Nuggets' supporting cast wasn't ready for primetime yet and choked. I don't think Portland would have beaten Houston, Milwaukee, or Philly if they had to face them. Al Horford led a pretty weak cast to the conference finals last year. Isaiah Thomas did it the year before. Neither one of them was at legitimate top of the league superstar status. Again, Lillard played great in the playoffs and I don't wanna downgrade him, but I just think he's closer to the top second tier guys like Butler, Draymond, and Lowry than he is to the Curry/Harden/Embiid/Jokic group. George has a legitimate argument as a top 5 player in the league and he belongs with the super-duperstars.

First of all, you can't compare ECF to WCF, it's different type of competition. If Portland had Nurkic healthy, they would challenge for the best record in the west, and Lillard would be a strong MVP cnadidate. Nuggets were inexperienced, but that team was tough to beat, especially without home court advantage. Winning that game 7 is a defining moment for Lillard as a leader. You claim Jokic is a superior player, but he had a better, deeper supporting cast, and still lost to Dame's team.

The individual game plus/minuses in that series for Jokic we’re +16, +2, +5, +17, +26, -5, and -2. If Jokic gets any help from his bench the series is over in 4 or 5 games and the Nuggets are moving on. Meanwhile Lillard was -6, +4, +4, -8, -22, -2, and -8. He was lucky to even be in it. Then in the winner-take-all Game 7, Jokic puts up 29 and 13 with 4 blocks while Lillard scores 13 points on 3/17 shooting.

I agree that the Nuggets had the more talented supporting cast, but they also had the youngest roster in the NBA, nerves got to everyone a little bit (except for Jokic), and they didn’t perform to anywhere near their normal level. You can’t use them as a measuring stick to say Lillard was the better player that series. Hell, Lillard wasn’t even the best player on his own team that series, let alone the best player in the series overall. CJ was the one who carried the Blazers over the finish line the last 2 games when Dame fell apart.

If you watched the game, and whole series you could see how much defensive attention they paid to Dame. That was a part of the reason why McCollum went off in game 7. All those plus/minus numbers don't mean anything, as I've already proved to you. When you see that LeBron was 12 th in RPM, you try to put context into situation. When it supports your narrative, you ignore the context. Lillard is the engine of that team, everything good starts with him, that's what matters.

Denver had a better bench than Portland, Barton, Morris ,Beasley, Plumlee is a strong unit,but you can blame it on them if you want to. Jokic had 29 points in game 7, but most of it was early. He didn't do much in second half, or in fourth quarter. He had a key turnover that ended up with Dame three, which was crucial. So nerves got to him too.

[kuclas]

First of all, you can't compare ECF to WCF, it's different type of competition. If Portland had Nurkic healthy, they would challenge for the best record in the west, and Lillard would be a strong MVP cnadidate. Nuggets were inexperienced, but that team was tough to beat, especially without home court advantage. Winning that game 7 is a defining moment for Lillard as a leader. You claim Jokic is a superior player, but he had a better, deeper supporting cast, and still lost to Dame's team.

The individual game plus/minuses in that series for Jokic we’re +16, +2, +5, +17, +26, -5, and -2. If Jokic gets any help from his bench the series is over in 4 or 5 games and the Nuggets are moving on. Meanwhile Lillard was -6, +4, +4, -8, -22, -2, and -8. He was lucky to even be in it. Then in the winner-take-all Game 7, Jokic puts up 29 and 13 with 4 blocks while Lillard scores 13 points on 3/17 shooting.

I agree that the Nuggets had the more talented supporting cast, but they also had the youngest roster in the NBA, nerves got to everyone a little bit (except for Jokic), and they didn’t perform to anywhere near their normal level. You can’t use them as a measuring stick to say Lillard was the better player that series. Hell, Lillard wasn’t even the best player on his own team that series, let alone the best player in the series overall. CJ was the one who carried the Blazers over the finish line the last 2 games when Dame fell apart.

If you watched the game, and whole series you could see how much defensive attention they paid to Dame. That was a part of the reason why McCollum went off in game 7. All those plus/minus numbers don't mean anything, as I've already proved to you. When you see that LeBron was 12 th in RPM, you try to put context into situation. When it supports your narrative, you ignore the context. Lillard is the engine of that team, everything good starts with him, that's what matters.

Denver had a better bench than Portland, Barton, Morris ,Beasley, Plumlee is a strong unit,but you can blame it on them if you want to. Jokic had 29 points in game 7, but most of it was early. He didn't do much in second half, or in fourth quarter. He had a key turnover that ended up with Dame three, which was crucial. So nerves got to him too.

Plus minus is more impactful on the defensive end. Because lillard is and never will be elite defender (due to size). He gets hurt by those numbers.

The plus minus numbers matter most in this context to centers. Since they are suppose to be the last stop gap for defense. That’s why jokic while slow is still needed to be on the floor cause of his sheer size to help defend.

That’s why plus minus matters in the context of Joel embiid. Every one saw he didn’t have a good offensive performance and thought jimmy butler was the key. No. It wasn’t. It was embiid defensive presence on the the plus minus. Embiid was a whopping plus 143? In a 7 game series. Next closest was K leonard who had one of the all time great series and he was at Plus 90.

Why? Because the minute embiid left the floor. Toronto scores at will. Embiid left the floor for 2 minutes in game 7. I think Toronto outscored sixers by 9 or 12 points in those 2 minutes.

That’s why plus minus is important especially to centers who are needed for defense.