RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#12 2019-20

Pelly24 · Post #41 » by **Pelly24** » Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:08 am

Westbrook still oddly overrated on this forum of all forums

Scatocephalus · Post #42 » by **Scatocephalus** » Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:20 am

spicy6 wrote:
Kurt Heimlich wrote:
spicy6 wrote:
If Westbrook is winning only based on "brand recognition alone" I would love to hear the reasoning behind picking Gobert of all players, dont even think hes top 20 tbh.

Elite (like top 1 or 2 elite) defensive impact and elite win share on a superstar'less playoff team compared to Westbrooks mediocre win share and brutal scoring efficiency.

Not sure you watched the playoffs or not but gobert and westbrook were both awful. Gobert especially more so getting killed in iso's, pick and rolls, due to this his minutes were down a little in the series and his stalwart "defense" was incognito especially against the rockets. Both russ and gobert had a negative on/off, usually isnt seen with russ at all but with gobert it makes sense hes unplayable against these sort of teams hence they were better with favors rather than him in that series.

Gobert more so in the 2018 semis and 2019 first round combining all those matchups it was capela and the rockets who got the better of him. Russ shot was awful especially in the postseason had a 52-53% TS but still got 23-10-9 regardless him on a bad day is more impressive than Gobert (who he also made more all nba team votes than overall). No post game, a shot blocking pick and roll big is all he is. Good for top 20-25 though.

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Jazz Dog · Post #43 » by **Jazz Dog** » Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:19 am

Voted Gobert

Nominate Mitchell

OkcSinceSGA · Post #44 » by **OkcSinceSGA** » Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:19 am

Glad to see people with the sense not to pick KD when he will not touch a basketball court in 2019-2020. Voted Gobert. Much greater impact than Westbrook last year.

iggymcfrack · Post #45 » by **iggymcfrack** » Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:32 am

Dray > Towns >>>> Gobert > Westbrook

TheNG · Post #46 » by **TheNG** » Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:34 am

Nominate Doncic

Metallikid · Post #47 » by **Metallikid** » Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:35 am

RUDY GOBERT IS NOT IN THE TOP 25 AND YOU CAN'T CONVINCE ME OTHERWISE

iggymcfrack · Post #48 » by **iggymcfrack** » Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:48 am

Karl Anthony-Towns last year (age 23): 26.3 PER on .622 TS%, .197 WS/48, 6.8 BPM, 3.86 RPM

Russell Westbrook last year (age 30): 21.1 PER on .501 TS%, .124 WS/48, 6.5 BPM, 2.51 RPM

Towns is a young player just entering his prime while Westbrook is an athleticism reliant player who has declined heavily two years in a row. Every single statistic says that Towns was already better than Westbrook last year, even BPM which so overrates high combinations of rebounds and assists that it had Westbrook’s 2017 season as the greatest season in the history of the NBA and used said rebounds and assists to guess that he was the 5th best defender in the league last season.

That’s how far Westbrook has fallen. That even a stat which likes his style of play so much it rates his 2017 season better than peak Jordan and LeBron and gifts him credit for top 5 defense in a season where he was average on that end still has him behind Towns. And that’s before adjusting for the near certain further decline of Westbrook this season, Towns’ projected improvement, or the fact that Westbrook is going to the worst possible fit situation for him to show value next to the best all-in-one scoring/passing creator in the league. What’s the argument for Westbrook here exactly?

iggymcfrack · Post #49 » by **iggymcfrack** » Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:01 am

I’ll usually stick to my guns with a player even when they don’t have much of a chance to win, but I really have Dray and KAT pretty close to a tossup here, and Westbrook and Gobert would both be such awful choices I feel like I have to do something to fight against them. So switching my vote to KAT for now.

Like everyone voting has done such a good job so far. I thought AD maybe went 2 spots too low and everyone else has been voted in within one rank of where I’d put them. But this would be at least 20 spots too early for Westbrook. He ranked outside the top 30 in most comprehensive stats last year, and he’s in the middle of a car crash steep decline. Expecting him to bounce back would be like expecting Derrick Rose to be a Top 10 player in Cleveland. Or like expecting Melo to bounce back to form in OKC. Or expecting T-Mac to be a top 10 player after a couple years in Houston. Or expecting Vince Carter to be a top 10 player in Orlando. In the NBA, once you lose that much you don’t get it back. That’s just not how this league works. And statistically Westbrook has absolutely lost as much from his peak as those players. He’s just not that guy that he used to be.

Metallikid · Post #50 » by **Metallikid** » Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:22 am

iggymcfrack wrote:I’ll usually stick to my guns with a player even when they don’t have much of a chance to win, but I really have Dray and KAT pretty close to a tossup here, and Westbrook and Gobert would both be such awful choices I feel like I have to do something to fight against them. So switching my vote to KAT for now.

Like everyone voting has done such a good job so far. I thought AD maybe went 2 spots too low and everyone else has been voted in within one rank of where I’d put them. But this would be at least 20 spots too early for Westbrook. He ranked outside the top 30 in most comprehensive stats last year, and he’s in the middle of a car crash steep decline. Expecting him to bounce back would be like expecting Derrick Rose to be a Top 10 player in Cleveland. Or like expecting Melo to bounce back to form in OKC. Or expecting T-Mac to be a top 10 player after a couple years in Houston. Or expecting Vince Carter to be a top 10 player in Orlando. In the NBA, once you lose that much you don’t get it back. That’s just not how this league works. And statistically Westbrook has absolutely lost as much from his peak as those players. He’s just not that guy that he used to be.

I would vote for Chris Paul over Westbrook but people felt Ben Simmons is the better player. :dontknow:

iggymcfrack · Post #51 » by **iggymcfrack** » Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:50 am

Metallikid wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:I’ll usually stick to my guns with a player even when they don’t have much of a chance to win, but I really have Dray and KAT pretty close to a tossup here, and Westbrook and Gobert would both be such awful choices I feel like I have to do something to fight against them. So switching my vote to KAT for now.

Like everyone voting has done such a good job so far. I thought AD maybe went 2 spots too low and everyone else has been voted in within one rank of where I’d put them. But this would be at least 20 spots too early for Westbrook. He ranked outside the top 30 in most comprehensive stats last year, and he’s in the middle of a car crash steep decline. Expecting him to bounce back would be like expecting Derrick Rose to be a Top 10 player in Cleveland. Or like expecting Melo to bounce back to form in OKC. Or expecting T-Mac to be a top 10 player after a couple years in Houston. Or expecting Vince Carter to be a top 10 player in Orlando. In the NBA, once you lose that much you don’t get it back. That’s just not how this league works. And statistically Westbrook has absolutely lost as much from his peak as those players. He’s just not that guy that he used to be.

I would vote for Chris Paul over Westbrook but people felt Ben Simmons is the better player.

I think it’s reasonable to project some decent growth for Simmons in Year 3. He had a difficult situation last year with Butler sharing the lead playmaker role that made it difficult for him to really make a leap, but I think you’ll see more of it this season. Simmons 2018 season had a better RPM than Westbrook’s 2019. If you wanna say Paul’s better I won’t argue with you, but I’d say Simmons, Green, and Towns are all clearly ahead of Westbrook this season.

jirrit · Post #52 » by **jirrit** » Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:46 am

I dont see Westbrook here. Nope.

gh123 · Post #53 » by **gh123** » Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:55 am

With the way this is going Doncic should be top20. Trash like DOnkey with their 11+7 shou;dn't even be in top40.

Post #54 » by **Duffman100** » Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:27 pm

Lowry really needs to start making the poll. The Raps won the title and didn't have two top 20 players? C'mon people...

iggymcfrack · Post #55 » by **iggymcfrack** » Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:41 pm

Duffman100 wrote:Lowry really needs to start making the poll. The Raps won the title and didn't have two top 20 players? C'mon people...

I had him as a Top 12 or 13 player last season, but he did decline some last season and he’s 33 right now. Like is he really better than Chris Paul? They’re less than a year apart in age and CP3 was clearly better every season until last year. Is he better than Siakam for the upcoming year? Some people (not me) thought Pascal was better last year and he’s improving faster than anyone in the league while Siakam is declining. I mean, sure he’s better than Westbrook, a lot of guys are, but I still can’t quite see him as a slam dunk at this point.

Post #56 » by **Duffman100** » Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:44 pm

iggymcfrack wrote:
Duffman100 wrote:Lowry really needs to start making the poll. The Raps won the title and didn't have two top 20 players? C'mon people...

I had him as a Top 12 or 13 player last season, but he did decline some last season and he’s 33 right now. Like is he really better than Chris Paul? They’re less than a year apart in age and CP3 was clearly better every season until last year. Is he better than Siakam for the upcoming year? Some people (not me) thought Pascal was better last year and he’s improving faster than anyone in the league while Siakam is declining. I mean, sure he’s better than Westbrook, a lot of guys are, but I still can’t quite see him as a slam dunk at this point.

His raw stats took a hit by switching to a facilitator behind Kawhi and Siakam.

But in terms of who helps you win the most? Lowry has to be on the list with the guys in this poll. Yeah, helps you win more than Chris Paul at this point.

I thought people after the playoffs would realize the little things Lowry does that gets the W.

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leolozon · Post #57 » by **leolozon** » Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:44 pm

Voted KAT considering it was for next year. Westbrook was barely top 20 this year and he's on the decline. How can he be the 12th best player? People keep saying he's getting unfairly bashed, but if some people consider him the 12th best player in the league going into next season, he's getting fairly bashed.

Nominate Doncic. He was around 30th last year, so I can't see why he doesn't end up around 20th next year.

iggymcfrack · Post #58 » by **iggymcfrack** » Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:45 pm

Kurt Heimlich wrote:
spicy6 wrote:
Kurt Heimlich wrote:Vote: Gobert (Westbrook is winning here on brand recognition alone)

Nominate: Luka D

If Westbrook is winning only based on "brand recognition alone" I would love to hear the reasoning behind picking Gobert of all players, dont even think hes top 20 tbh.

Elite (like top 1 or 2 elite) defensive impact and elite win share on a superstar'less playoff team compared to Westbrooks mediocre win share and brutal scoring efficiency.

What’s his argument compared to Draymond? Dray’s much better than Gobert both on offense and defense when it actually matters. Simmons gets dogged for failures in the playoffs, but Gobert’s been even worse in the playoffs.

Not Suave Rico · Post #59 » by **Not Suave Rico** » Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:51 pm

Nominate Doncic.

Kurt Heimlich · Post #60 » by **Kurt Heimlich** » Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:11 pm

iggymcfrack wrote:
Kurt Heimlich wrote:
spicy6 wrote:
If Westbrook is winning only based on "brand recognition alone" I would love to hear the reasoning behind picking Gobert of all players, dont even think hes top 20 tbh.

Elite (like top 1 or 2 elite) defensive impact and elite win share on a superstar'less playoff team compared to Westbrooks mediocre win share and brutal scoring efficiency.

What’s his argument compared to Draymond? Dray’s much better than Gobert both on offense and defense when it actually matters. Simmons gets dogged for failures in the playoffs, but Gobert’s been even worse in the playoffs.

I'd vote for dray over westbrook too. Gobert isnt a home run no brainer here, but his unique and absolute elite level skillset gave him the edge.

I've been nominating luka the last couple rounds and honestly wont be suprised if hes a top 12 guy by this season.