[SI]David Griffin on 3-year stint with Cavs: “Everything we did was so inorganic and unsustainable and, frankly, not fun

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Re: [SI]David Griffin on 3-year stint with Cavs: “Everything we did was so inorganic and unsustainable and, frankly, not 

Post#241 » by infinite11285 » Sun Aug 4, 2019 4:58 pm

Lalouie wrote:
infinite11285 wrote:
Lalouie wrote:and there's certainly nothing "organic" about what the lakers are doing now either.


Define “organic”.


evolving naturally in a structured, planned, anticipated, and expected way.
imo, the PUREST example of an organic structure would be to build through drafts and CALCULATED trades.
the opposite of organic would be chaos, the anomalous introduction of elements that force a deviation in behavior and normalcy.


Haven’t the Lakers been the textbook example of chaos since Dr.Buss passed; organizational infighting, horrible drafts choices, questionable trades, AWFUL contracts given out to undeserving players, FO dysfunction, a revolving door of coaching staffs, et al? What’s ‘organic’ about the Lakers right now? What is the “Laker way”, under Jeanie’s tenure? To aggregate blame to one player for years of chaos since the death of the greatest owner in sports history seems very shortsighted.
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Re: [SI]David Griffin on 3-year stint with Cavs: “Everything we did was so inorganic and unsustainable and, frankly, not 

Post#242 » by MrDollarBills » Sun Aug 4, 2019 5:02 pm

KrAzY3 wrote:
MrDollarBills wrote:Bunch of political crap

Dude, stop trying to blame obvious mental illness on other things.

You can try to make it partisan, but guess what? Mental illness isn't a white thing, it isn't a left or a right thing, that's why there are crazy people that do crazy things in all walks of life. Why do people overlook the obvious and craft these elaborate excuses when the answer is right there staring us in the face? Mass murderers are sadistic, barbaric, evil people. It doesn't matter what their religion is, what their political affiliation is, what their race is, or what the gender is. That's not what makes them want to kill innocent people.


Whatever helps you sleep at night. Meanwhile in reality, people are being murdered by white supremacist terrorists who have been emboldened by the POTUS. But sure, cling to your mental illness fall back because you are too uncomfortable to call it like it is.

And on that note, I'm done discussing this here.
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Re: [SI]David Griffin on 3-year stint with Cavs: “Everything we did was so inorganic and unsustainable and, frankly, not 

Post#243 » by RCM88x » Sun Aug 4, 2019 5:05 pm

SeniorWalker wrote:It's pretty incredible that Griffin isnt even allowed to be honest before nearly the entire media conglomerate does a full on assault in defense of LeBron. It should be no surprise, as Lebron seems to have legions of crazy people everywhere who cannot tolerate even the most minuscule amounts of criticism in his general direction.

Almost everyone in the media was essentially asking for Griffin to apologize despite him just being completely transparent about his time in Cleveland. He had nothing to gain whatsoever from doing so, he just gave a rare insider's perspective of a key point in NBA history....and it was something that is sort of an open secret to begin with. And ultimately he caved and backpedaled his statement, though it is pretty obvious what he meant. He can try to take it back now but what he initially said and the "clarified" apology he gave had two different meanings.

Why should he apologize? LeBron is one of the greats but he put an incredible amount of pressure on Cleveland to do everything he asked and not for a long term sustainable cause. That is the antithesis of good GMing. One always has to think of the future while building within the present and not trade away all of one's available assets when your star player clearly is not committed to the future. And the usual, when everything goes right its because of LeBron; when everything goes wrong it is because of everyone else.

It is a little bothersome that few people take the time to think about how someone in a well regarded position like Griffin is afraid to be honest, and caved under media pressure because it doesnt fit the narrative on their most prized corporate asset in Mr. LeBron James, the money maker for all involved parties. I'm a little disgusted but can't say I'm shocked either. A lot of people out here, there, and everywhere, are frankly, mindless dimwits who will believe anything that coats their fantastical brains with a heavy dose of fairy tale sparkle.


Because he comes off like he would have rather not had LeBron come and continued to build with the dumpster of players we had outside of Kyrie. Despite 3 #1 picks we wouldn't have been a playoff team without LeBron,

He comes off like a guy who would rather get his own way than achieve success. Like some who would prefer to sit in comfort and mediocrity than stress and success.

I mean without James he's almost certianly not have an NBA GM job currently and maybe no job at all. Maybe if he had a track record of success outside of LeBron he'd have more sympathy. This isn't a "defense or LeBron" thing. It's a criticism of a guy who wasn't appreciative of success and the incredible luck he had in acquiring the best player in the league despite showing absolutely no capability to handle the situation beforehand.
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Phinsoverpats wrote:I bet the cavs really miss Andrew Wiggins....
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Re: [SI]David Griffin on 3-year stint with Cavs: “Everything we did was so inorganic and unsustainable and, frankly, not 

Post#244 » by C3H6N6O6 » Sun Aug 4, 2019 5:06 pm

infinite11285 wrote:
Lalouie wrote:
infinite11285 wrote:
Define “organic”.


evolving naturally in a structured, planned, anticipated, and expected way.
imo, the PUREST example of an organic structure would be to build through drafts and CALCULATED trades.
the opposite of organic would be chaos, the anomalous introduction of elements that force a deviation in behavior and normalcy.


Haven’t the Lakers been the textbook example of chaos since Dr.Buss passed; organizational infighting, horrible drafts choices, questionable trades, AWFUL contracts given out to players that don’t deserve it, FO dysfunction, a revolving door of coaching staffs, et al? What’s ‘organic’ about the Lakers right now? What is the “Laker way” under Jeanie’s tenure? To aggregate blame to one player for years of chaos since the death of the greatest owner in sports history seems very shortsighted.

There was no organic way for Lakers ever which is why they are easily the most successful NBA franchise since the time people actually started caring about the NBA.
Magic said that he would only play with Kareem when he was in college. Kareem was traded to the Lakers.
Shaq got signed by Jerry West leading to a 3-peat then Kobe demanded a trade when Lakers were doing badly and then got Pau.
I have no doubt that Lakers wouldn't even be much talked about right now if LeBron hadn't signed by them which would have meant no AD.
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Re: [SI]David Griffin on 3-year stint with Cavs: “Everything we did was so inorganic and unsustainable and, frankly, not 

Post#245 » by phraoh » Sun Aug 4, 2019 6:58 pm

As a Cavs fan, I have been able to follow closely and understand both the good and bad of having Lebron on your team. Unfortunately, I totally understand how miserable Griffin was even though a chip was won...it just wasn't as fun as it should have been. I felt the same way Griffin felt and I was just a fan! It was draining and exhausting, part of it being Lebron's fault (his body language and comments, along with his constant 1 year deals, not wanting young players, no concern for next year, etc., which resulted in bad long term viability for every team he leaves. Part was the overwhelming media scrutiny. Griffin is a smart guy and a good gm....he will have New Orleans in great shape as pe now and in the future.
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Re: [SI]David Griffin on 3-year stint with Cavs: “Everything we did was so inorganic and unsustainable and, frankly, not 

Post#246 » by Baski » Sun Aug 4, 2019 7:48 pm

Man he cries a lot huh? That's fine he can do him but putting it on blast like that.
It feels like he's, or rather the author is,directly taking a shot at Lebron. Raises questions as to whether he can handle the pressure to win while not having a BITW tier player.
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Re: [SI]David Griffin on 3-year stint with Cavs: “Everything we did was so inorganic and unsustainable and, frankly, not 

Post#247 » by KrAzY3 » Mon Aug 5, 2019 5:07 am

MrDollarBills wrote:Whatever helps you sleep at night. Meanwhile in reality, people are being murdered by white supremacist terrorists who have been emboldened by the POTUS. But sure, cling to your mental illness fall back because you are too uncomfortable to call it like it is.

I'm not trying to create an argument or drag a conversation that doesn't belong here further.

However, it has come to light that the other shooter was not only not a white supremacist, and not a Trump supporter, but he was in fact an Elizabeth Warren supporter and he hated ICE. So we have two people, with completely different political views and ideology, but they both shared something in common. They were hateful, evil people that wanted to kill innocents.

That's always the common thread. I'm tired of people trying to use tragedies to push their agendas. Right, left, pro-immigration, anti-immigration, evil is evil man... these sick people are doing it because they want to take innocent lives, that's all there is to it.

None of that, none of that has one teeny tiny bit to do with Griffin crying or people making fun of him for being a crybaby, though. Those things couldn't be further apart and I'm more than glad to leave it at that.
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Re: [SI]David Griffin on 3-year stint with Cavs: “Everything we did was so inorganic and unsustainable and, frankly, not 

Post#248 » by NPZ » Mon Aug 5, 2019 5:11 am

infinite11285 wrote:
Lalouie wrote:
infinite11285 wrote:
Define “organic”.


evolving naturally in a structured, planned, anticipated, and expected way.
imo, the PUREST example of an organic structure would be to build through drafts and CALCULATED trades.
the opposite of organic would be chaos, the anomalous introduction of elements that force a deviation in behavior and normalcy.


Haven’t the Lakers been the textbook example of chaos since Dr.Buss passed; organizational infighting, horrible drafts choices, questionable trades, AWFUL contracts given out to undeserving players, FO dysfunction, a revolving door of coaching staffs, et al? What’s ‘organic’ about the Lakers right now? What is the “Laker way”, under Jeanie’s tenure? To aggregate blame to one player for years of chaos since the death of the greatest owner in sports history seems very shortsighted.


Well, I remember watching this Cavs retrospective from 92 (vid title is incorrectly dated) when they had the same core for years and they never won sh. The GM talked about bringing back the same guys so it would be like a family, iirc. So, ask Cavs fans what they'd rather have, another superstar that could shoulder a bad team by himself or an organic/sustainable roster that gets beaten by a team with a superstar every year like the old Cavs. Likewise, the Showtime days are over. Players move around every year, even the top superstars. It's no longer possible to pull off Showtime for 10 years.

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Re: [SI]David Griffin on 3-year stint with Cavs: “Everything we did was so inorganic and unsustainable and, frankly, not 

Post#249 » by LivingLegend » Mon Aug 5, 2019 6:11 am

boomershadow wrote:If he does a good job in New Orleans and creates a good team atmosphere and sustains success over a period of time, I think that would vindicate most of his thoughts right here. Cleveland got the chip they wanted, but they did burn the place halfway to the ground while doing it.

That's if, though.


I dont think his idea is wrong, but the Cavs and Griffin just got done drafting Dion Waiters, Anthony Bennett and Andrew Wiggins sooo he can kick rocks with this 'trying to organically grow a basketball powerhouse' crap.
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Re: [SI]David Griffin on 3-year stint with Cavs: “Everything we did was so inorganic and unsustainable and, frankly, not 

Post#251 » by Baski » Mon Aug 5, 2019 8:19 am

homecourtloss wrote:
Ainosterhaspie wrote:They went to the finals every year LeBron was there the second time. They won a title and but for injury could well have had two. It's unlikely they could have done better if they had tried for some long term vision. Why would you trade competitiveness now for hopefully being competitive in the future?


This is true. They did everything to create a contender the first year James got there, and they couldn’t have asked for anything more. The team was built for the playoffs (Griffin even said this when he was the GM as the older players could rest with days off between every playoff game, so they could play defense the way they couldn’t in the regular season). Look at this playoff SRSs—these are historic type of numbers. Almost little to no chance they exceed this if they “built differently.”

Year, GP, Off, Def, SRS

2015, 20, +5.5, -4.1 +8.64
2016, 21, +12.4,-2.9 +14.13
2017, 21, +13.7, +0.4 +12.72

2015: Trade for Shumpert, Mozgov, JR and their defense becomes really good. In the last games James, Kyrie, and Love played together, they were 33-3 with a +13 or so SRS. They were obliterating teams and were actually playing better than a 67 win Warriors team.

2017: They had the best raw playoffs offense in NBA history but ran into the GOAT team, i.e., a 73 win team that added KD.

Very easily could have been a three peat and then who knows what 2018 looks like. What more could you want? How much better could you “build the team”?

James was in his prime you build around that. This is what he did in those playoffs:

2015-2017 Value Over Replacement Player (VORP)

James, 9.3 (These three years worth of VORP alone would put LeBron in the top 20 in NBA history. His last 4 years would place him in the top 8 all time, more than Hakeem’s and Barkley’s and K. Malone’s and Dr. J’s totals; Dirk in his entire playoffs career has a VORP of 8.9; KD’s lifetime VORP is 10.42 for reference)

Kyrie, 2.6
Love, 1.3

2015-2017 Win Shares

James, 12 (17.1 if you include 2018; that would be more than David Robinson’s and KG’s and Drexler’s and Moses’s and Jason Kidd’s and Patrick Ewing’s and Paul Pierce’s and Oscar Robertson’s respective career totals

Kyrie, 7.4
Love, 4.6

2015-2018 Box Plus Minus

James, +12.4 (81 games; Jordan, the only other player who comes close, from 1991 to 1998 had a BPM of +9.6; from 1991 to 1993 it was +11.3, from 1988 to 1993 it was +12)
Kyrie, +3.5 (52 games)
Love, +.9 (63 games)

Estimated Playoff Wins Added

James, 27.5
Kyrie, 10.8

If not for an historic GOAT team built in the Bay Area, Cavs would have won more than one title. As it is, the moves they made created historically good playoff teams led by a player who had historic playoff runs near the end of 99% of players’ usual prime windows.

What else were they supposed to do?

There's always gonna be a complaint. This "organic" stuff is what Houston, GSW, OKC to an extent, DEN, TOR (barely), MIL, POR and a bunch of others have been doing since Lebron returned to Cleveland and aside from the Cavs only two of them have won a title in the 5 years since then. It's easy to criticize. This is similar to that stupid "his playstyle limits their ceiling because they couldn't beat a top 3 GOAT team" narrative. There aren't that many Tim Duncans running around so I dunno why being Tim Duncan is something to judge Lebron by.
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Re: [SI]David Griffin on 3-year stint with Cavs: “Everything we did was so inorganic and unsustainable and, frankly, not 

Post#252 » by Narco_Cowboy11 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:30 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Narco_Cowboy11 wrote:Seems to me LeBron's battles with Dan Gilbert is what made it toxic for everyone. Legitimate or not. Kyrie, Griff, Ty Lue, and everyone suffered because of it and the pressure to deliver. Even LeBron's reputation took a hit and maybe took a toll on him. The residue seemed to linger on Kyrie when he went to Boston and it infected the atmosphere ultimately.

I just think that situation was going to be like that no matter who was around Gilbert and LeBron, but especially LeBron since he returned to Cleveland after how things played out with The Decision. LBJ is my guy but I can't act like this situation isn't mostly on him, fair or unfair.


What battles are you referring to? Dan spends most of his time in Detroit running his businesses, not standing around in practices fighting with players.

The pressure to win was of course very high.

It just seems more likely that a first time coach like Lue and a first time GM like Griffin simply struggled to deal with it. If Gilbert and James are culpable, it's for wanting guys who've never had their feet in the fire before.



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Re: [SI]David Griffin on 3-year stint with Cavs: “Everything we did was so inorganic and unsustainable and, frankly, not 

Post#253 » by theFireBlanket » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:57 am

BNM wrote:
taikibansei wrote:"Oh woe is me, we won it all in an inorganic fashion..."--seriously, wtf? :crazy:


Apparently he's worried Whole Foods will invalidate that championship by calling for a boycott unless there is an asterisk placed next to it in the record books.


Whole Foods might sell "organic" but their company is on the whole pretty inorganic.
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Re: [SI]David Griffin on 3-year stint with Cavs: “Everything we did was so inorganic and unsustainable and, frankly, not 

Post#254 » by taikibansei » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:10 pm

theFireBlanket wrote:
BNM wrote:
taikibansei wrote:"Oh woe is me, we won it all in an inorganic fashion..."--seriously, wtf? :crazy:


Apparently he's worried Whole Foods will invalidate that championship by calling for a boycott unless there is an asterisk placed next to it in the record books.


Whole Foods might sell "organic" but their company is on the whole pretty inorganic.


And somewhere, right now, David Griffin is probably weeping about that too....
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Re: [SI]David Griffin on 3-year stint with Cavs: “Everything we did was so inorganic and unsustainable and, frankly, not 

Post#255 » by Magutier114 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:34 pm

I get what David Griffin is saying. His job was reduced to getting players Lebron wanted/needed and he had no decision making. His job as a GM was only a title, he was in reality a “go get me this, go get me that”. In other words decisions were being made for him and all he was doing is executing. I can see the frustration in that.
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Re: [SI]David Griffin on 3-year stint with Cavs: “Everything we did was so inorganic and unsustainable and, frankly, not 

Post#256 » by JonFromVA » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:47 pm

phraoh wrote:As a Cavs fan, I have been able to follow closely and understand both the good and bad of having Lebron on your team. Unfortunately, I totally understand how miserable Griffin was even though a chip was won...it just wasn't as fun as it should have been. I felt the same way Griffin felt and I was just a fan! It was draining and exhausting, part of it being Lebron's fault (his body language and comments, along with his constant 1 year deals, not wanting young players, no concern for next year, etc., which resulted in bad long term viability for every team he leaves. Part was the overwhelming media scrutiny. Griffin is a smart guy and a good gm....he will have New Orleans in great shape as pe now and in the future.


The thing is Griff was the guy who could have done something about all that, so, I don't feel sorry for him in the least.

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