RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#15 2019-20

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RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#15 2019-20

Poll ended at Thu Aug 8, 2019 6:37 pm

Kevin Durant (BKN)
17
8%
Kyrie Irving (BKN)
63
29%
Draymond Green (GSW)
65
30%
Bradley Beal (WAS)
10
5%
Kemba Walker (BOS)
4
2%
Blake Griffin (DET)
20
9%
Ben Simmons (PHI)
7
3%
Luka Doncic (DAL)
17
8%
Donovan Mitchell (UTA)
7
3%
Victor Oladipo (IND)
4
2%
 
Total votes: 214

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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#15 2019-20 

Post#81 » by Roddy B for 3 » Thu Aug 8, 2019 5:47 am

iggymcfrack wrote:
Roddy B for 3 wrote:I voted Luka, but since Kyrie vs Draymond is the argument I'm going to say:

If I had the 15th best starter at SG, SF, and C with the 40th best player at backup c, PF, SF, SG, and PG. And you gurantees me that once I picked between Draymond and Kyrie I'd get the 15th best starter at whichever one I didn't choose position, I would pick Draymond.

I say this in theroy. In practice Kyrie might fit better but, I expect PG to be more loaded than PF which gives PF an edge when comparing players.

+ I think Draymond makes teams better and Kyrie has a lot of "empty" stats. (The locker room stuff is the big difference.

Draymond>>Kyrie in defense ='s Kyrie >> Draymond on offense, more or less.

Draymond offense > Kyrie defense.

I would probably still take Kyrie because offense > defense, but locker room Draymond >> Kyrie.


I had Draymond as literally the #1 most kmapctful defensive player in the NBA last year. He’s top 5 at worst. Kyrie’s what, maybe borderline top 10 on offense? Even accounting for offense being more valuable than defense I’d say Dray’s O and Kyrie’s D are pretty comparable in impact. Meanwhile Draymond’s a well above average offensive player, finishing 3rd in the league in assists per game last playoffs. Kyrie’s a clear negative defensively and has consistently made the teams he’s played for worse on that end.

Like if you’re already accounting for offense > defense,
Draymond’s D = Kyrie’s O
Draymond’s O >> Kyrie’s D

If you’re not:
Draymond’s D> Kyrie’s O
Draymond’s O >> Kyrie’s D

Don’t really see how you have them equally distant before accounting for value of offense vs. value of defense. I do agree with what you said about locker room value though. Draymond seems to be one of the best leaders in the entire NBA while Kyrie is probably one of the 5 worst locker room cancers. That absolutely makes a difference if you had them comparable otherwise.


I think the best Kyrie has ever been offensively is more impactful than the best Draymond ever been defensivley. Even if Draymond is #1 on defense and Kyrie is #10 on offense.

Currently the locker room stuff plays out on the court and it's fairly easy to see Irving wasn't a top 10 offensive player last year while Draymond was clearly deserving of an all-deffensive team.

And yeah I agree Draymonds offense is a + while Kyries defense is a -.

If it wasn't for the locker room stuff i'd have Kyrie ahead of Dray but as is they are close but I'd choose 10+ players before Kyrie. I hate that bad locker room crap.

To show how much more I value offense than defense I voted for Luka ahead of Dray and will probably pick Kemba and Beal, and Griffin (if not for injury history) ahead of Draymond

So I probably have Draymond 17 or 18 and Kyrie I probably won't vote top 25.
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#15 2019-20 

Post#82 » by Asif16 » Thu Aug 8, 2019 2:25 pm

Nominate Lowry
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#15 2019-20 

Post#83 » by Pelly24 » Thu Aug 8, 2019 3:18 pm

Lol this is crazy, Draymond is just not better than Kyrie. Expectations are so low for him. People make the argument that he's a better second option, but even that;s not true, because if he was GSW would've won in 2016. As a No. 1 option, Kyrie is just decent, get you to second-round level. I don't even think Draymond's at that point.
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#15 2019-20 

Post#84 » by iggymcfrack » Thu Aug 8, 2019 3:36 pm

Pelly24 wrote:Lol this is crazy, Draymond is just not better than Kyrie. Expectations are so low for him. People make the argument that he's a better second option, but even that;s not true, because if he was GSW would've won in 2016. As a No. 1 option, Kyrie is just decent, get you to second-round level. I don't even think Draymond's at that point.


Draymond was amazing in 2016. 2nd in the NBA in RPM, shot 39% from 3 in the regular season and 37% in the playoffs. The problem was that Steph choked in the Finals that year and Draymond had to be more of the #1 than the #2. If Steph played as well as Draymond in the Finals, the Warriors would have won the championship easily.
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#15 2019-20 

Post#85 » by Edrees » Thu Aug 8, 2019 3:37 pm

Pelly24 wrote:Lol this is crazy, Draymond is just not better than Kyrie. Expectations are so low for him. People make the argument that he's a better second option, but even that;s not true, because if he was GSW would've won in 2016. As a No. 1 option, Kyrie is just decent, get you to second-round level. I don't even think Draymond's at that point.


That's not true. Are you saying Rich Hamilton is a better 2nd option than either Kobe Or Shaq (from 2004)? It's a 5 on 5 game. Lebron was a much better 1st option than Curry that series, and the 4th/5th options on Cleveland played way better than GS. Also don't forget Draymond got suspended one game, and many contend Warriors win the series if that doesn't happen.
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#15 2019-20 

Post#86 » by Soulyss » Thu Aug 8, 2019 4:13 pm

Vote: Kyrie
Nominate: Nurkic
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#15 2019-20 

Post#87 » by Pelly24 » Thu Aug 8, 2019 5:54 pm

Edrees wrote:
Pelly24 wrote:Lol this is crazy, Draymond is just not better than Kyrie. Expectations are so low for him. People make the argument that he's a better second option, but even that;s not true, because if he was GSW would've won in 2016. As a No. 1 option, Kyrie is just decent, get you to second-round level. I don't even think Draymond's at that point.


That's not true. Are you saying Rich Hamilton is a better 2nd option than either Kobe Or Shaq (from 2004)? It's a 5 on 5 game. Lebron was a much better 1st option than Curry that series, and the 4th/5th options on Cleveland played way better than GS. Also don't forget Draymond got suspended one game, and many contend Warriors win the series if that doesn't happen.


Lol like I'm being hyperbolic, but Draymond's lack of a high offensive ceiling in comparison to Kyrie really hurts.


I dont buy the suspension stuff, LeBron lit him up the very next game.
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#15 2019-20 

Post#88 » by Pelly24 » Thu Aug 8, 2019 5:58 pm

iggymcfrack wrote:
Pelly24 wrote:Lol this is crazy, Draymond is just not better than Kyrie. Expectations are so low for him. People make the argument that he's a better second option, but even that;s not true, because if he was GSW would've won in 2016. As a No. 1 option, Kyrie is just decent, get you to second-round level. I don't even think Draymond's at that point.


Draymond was amazing in 2016. 2nd in the NBA in RPM, shot 39% from 3 in the regular season and 37% in the playoffs. The problem was that Steph choked in the Finals that year and Draymond had to be more of the #1 than the #2. If Steph played as well as Draymond in the Finals, the Warriors would have won the championship easily.


But he can't even be a No. 2 is my point. He gets too much credit for doing things with great players, arguably even more than Kyrie does. We'll get a better luck this year, but I'm not buying top 15.
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#15 2019-20 

Post#89 » by iggymcfrack » Thu Aug 8, 2019 6:12 pm

Pelly24 wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
Pelly24 wrote:Lol this is crazy, Draymond is just not better than Kyrie. Expectations are so low for him. People make the argument that he's a better second option, but even that;s not true, because if he was GSW would've won in 2016. As a No. 1 option, Kyrie is just decent, get you to second-round level. I don't even think Draymond's at that point.


Draymond was amazing in 2016. 2nd in the NBA in RPM, shot 39% from 3 in the regular season and 37% in the playoffs. The problem was that Steph choked in the Finals that year and Draymond had to be more of the #1 than the #2. If Steph played as well as Draymond in the Finals, the Warriors would have won the championship easily.


But he can't even be a No. 2 is my point. He gets too much credit for doing things with great players, arguably even more than Kyrie does. We'll get a better luck this year, but I'm not buying top 15.


During the 5 Finals runs:

Postseason
Warriors with Dray on floor: +10.8
Warriors with Steph on floor: +9.6
Warriors with Steph on bench: +1.0
Warriors with Dray on bench: -3.1

He’s also #1 in the entire NBA in postseason RAPM over that time (accounting for playing with better or worse teammates). He’s absolutely been massively impactful. Steph has missed several games (including before KD joined up) and they’ve still played like a top seed championship contender on the back of Draymond carrying the team. I feel like he’s had a very similar postseason impact to Curry overall.
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#15 2019-20 

Post#90 » by Claud » Thu Aug 8, 2019 6:18 pm

This is a popularity contest so It's hard to take this list serious.
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#15 2019-20 

Post#91 » by Claud » Thu Aug 8, 2019 6:19 pm

iggymcfrack wrote:
Pelly24 wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
Draymond was amazing in 2016. 2nd in the NBA in RPM, shot 39% from 3 in the regular season and 37% in the playoffs. The problem was that Steph choked in the Finals that year and Draymond had to be more of the #1 than the #2. If Steph played as well as Draymond in the Finals, the Warriors would have won the championship easily.


But he can't even be a No. 2 is my point. He gets too much credit for doing things with great players, arguably even more than Kyrie does. We'll get a better luck this year, but I'm not buying top 15.


During the 5 Finals runs:

Postseason
Warriors with Dray on floor: +10.8
Warriors with Steph on floor: +9.6
Warriors with Steph on bench: +1.0
Warriors with Dray on bench: -3.1

He’s also #1 in the entire NBA in postseason RAPM over that time (accounting for playing with better or worse teammates). He’s absolutely been massively impactful. Steph has missed several games (including before KD joined up) and they’ve still played like a top seed championship contender on the back of Draymond carrying the team. I feel like he’s had a very similar postseason impact to Curry overall.


Are you serious? Green would probably be out of the league if he didn't play in GS with the the splash brothers + KD. He's an EXCELLENT role player. Nothing else. He is a perfect SYSTEM player nothing else. Green CAN'T CARRY A TEAM :crazy:
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#15 2019-20 

Post#92 » by Claud » Thu Aug 8, 2019 6:23 pm

Pelly24 wrote:Lol this is crazy, Draymond is just not better than Kyrie. Expectations are so low for him. People make the argument that he's a better second option, but even that;s not true, because if he was GSW would've won in 2016. As a No. 1 option, Kyrie is just decent, get you to second-round level. I don't even think Draymond's at that point.


Most of the people driving this narrative are Saltics and Philly fans so take it with a grain of salt. Ask a real NBA scout or trainer if you want a serious analysis.
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#15 2019-20 

Post#93 » by iggymcfrack » Thu Aug 8, 2019 6:35 pm

Claud wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
Pelly24 wrote:
But he can't even be a No. 2 is my point. He gets too much credit for doing things with great players, arguably even more than Kyrie does. We'll get a better luck this year, but I'm not buying top 15.


During the 5 Finals runs:

Postseason
Warriors with Dray on floor: +10.8
Warriors with Steph on floor: +9.6
Warriors with Steph on bench: +1.0
Warriors with Dray on bench: -3.1

He’s also #1 in the entire NBA in postseason RAPM over that time (accounting for playing with better or worse teammates). He’s absolutely been massively impactful. Steph has missed several games (including before KD joined up) and they’ve still played like a top seed championship contender on the back of Draymond carrying the team. I feel like he’s had a very similar postseason impact to Curry overall.


Are you serious? Green would probably be out of the league if he didn't play in GS with the the splash brothers + KD. He's an EXCELLENT role player. Nothing else. He is a perfect SYSTEM player nothing else. Green CAN'T CARRY A TEAM :crazy:


Wow, you win worst post of the year sir. If I was the kind of person to post ridiculous quotes as a sig, this is the one I’d pick. You think a DPOY who’s one of the best playmakers in the league would have just slipped through the cracks and not made a roster if it wasn’t for Curry and Klay?
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#15 2019-20 

Post#94 » by Claud » Thu Aug 8, 2019 6:40 pm

Worst post of the year? You should go read some of the trash you posted.
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#15 2019-20 

Post#95 » by The_Hater » Thu Aug 8, 2019 6:42 pm

Claud wrote:This is a popularity contest so It's hard to take this list serious.


By the definition you appear to be using, what sort of ranking wouldn't be considered a popularity contest?

If I just ranked my top 25 players, that would be my popularity contest. If you did the same, well that's your favorite list. If the media or the coaches or the players were doing this, they would have their biases built into the list as well. And so on.

At least when you have a few hundred true NBA fans giving individual opinions you're far more likely to come to a pretty solid list but there's never going to be something that we consider a true consensus and no 2 people voting here would ever have the exact same list.
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April 14th, 2019.
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#15 2019-20 

Post#96 » by The_Hater » Thu Aug 8, 2019 6:44 pm

Claud wrote:Worst post of the year? You should go read some of the trash you posted.


Green out of the league? That's a really, really bad scouting report my friend. Headshakingly bad. I guess scoring points is all that matters and everything else that happens on the court is pointless and trivial?
AthensBucks wrote:Lowry is done.
Nurse is below average at best.
Masai is overrated.
I dont get how so many people believe in the raptors,they have zero to chance to win it all.


April 14th, 2019.
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#15 2019-20 

Post#97 » by NZB2323 » Thu Aug 8, 2019 6:54 pm

Claud wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
Pelly24 wrote:
But he can't even be a No. 2 is my point. He gets too much credit for doing things with great players, arguably even more than Kyrie does. We'll get a better luck this year, but I'm not buying top 15.


During the 5 Finals runs:

Postseason
Warriors with Dray on floor: +10.8
Warriors with Steph on floor: +9.6
Warriors with Steph on bench: +1.0
Warriors with Dray on bench: -3.1

He’s also #1 in the entire NBA in postseason RAPM over that time (accounting for playing with better or worse teammates). He’s absolutely been massively impactful. Steph has missed several games (including before KD joined up) and they’ve still played like a top seed championship contender on the back of Draymond carrying the team. I feel like he’s had a very similar postseason impact to Curry overall.


Are you serious? Green would probably be out of the league if he didn't play in GS with the the splash brothers + KD. He's an EXCELLENT role player. Nothing else. He is a perfect SYSTEM player nothing else. Green CAN'T CARRY A TEAM :crazy:


When has Kyrie ever carried a team? In 2014 the Cavs won 33 games. In 2018 the Celtics made it to game 7 of the ECF without him, and then in 2019 they won 49 games and lost in 5 games in the 2nd round with him.

Also, defense is half the game and Green is a DPOTY candidate while Kyrie struggles to try at defense.

Additionally, being healthy is important, and Kyrie averages 63.5 games played per season while Draymond averages 76.1 games played per season.
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#15 2019-20 

Post#98 » by leolozon » Thu Aug 8, 2019 6:54 pm

The #16 will just be a waste of time, should just give it to Kyrie. It would be good to have a policy that if the 2nd guy has 3 times more votes than the 3rd guy, that he gets the next spot by default.
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#15 2019-20 

Post#99 » by XxIronChainzxX » Thu Aug 8, 2019 7:00 pm

leolozon wrote:The #16 will just be a waste of time, should just give it to Kyrie. It would be good to have a policy that if the 2nd guy has 3 times more votes than the 3rd guy, that he gets the next spot by default.


But that makes no sense. All the Draymond voters might think someone else is better.
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#15 2019-20 

Post#100 » by Pelly24 » Thu Aug 8, 2019 7:13 pm

NZB2323 wrote:
Claud wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
During the 5 Finals runs:

Postseason
Warriors with Dray on floor: +10.8
Warriors with Steph on floor: +9.6
Warriors with Steph on bench: +1.0
Warriors with Dray on bench: -3.1

He’s also #1 in the entire NBA in postseason RAPM over that time (accounting for playing with better or worse teammates). He’s absolutely been massively impactful. Steph has missed several games (including before KD joined up) and they’ve still played like a top seed championship contender on the back of Draymond carrying the team. I feel like he’s had a very similar postseason impact to Curry overall.


Are you serious? Green would probably be out of the league if he didn't play in GS with the the splash brothers + KD. He's an EXCELLENT role player. Nothing else. He is a perfect SYSTEM player nothing else. Green CAN'T CARRY A TEAM :crazy:


When has Kyrie ever carried a team? In 2014 the Cavs won 33 games. In 2018 the Celtics made it to game 7 of the ECF without him, and then in 2019 they won 49 games and lost in 5 games in the 2nd round with him.

Also, defense is half the game and Green is a DPOTY candidate while Kyrie struggles to try at defense.

Additionally, being healthy is important, and Kyrie averages 63.5 games played per season while Draymond averages 76.1 games played per season.


Kyire did a pretty solid job this year as far as taking a team to what should have been a realistic win total. 49 wins is good as a first option. Defense is important, but Kyrie did not struggle on defense the last two years. He was even a slight positive on defense this year. He does that with the ability to get 24/6-7 on 50/40/90 splits and 60 TS%. He was more impactful in the regular season than Draymond over the last two years. He was always a better player.

I disagrree with role player, but I think the Draymond hype gives him credit he doesnt deserve by overlooking things we generally penalize other players for.

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