RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#16 2019-20

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RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#16 2019-20

Poll ended at Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:41 pm

Kevin Durant (BKN)
12
7%
Kyrie Irving (BKN)
59
35%
Bradley Beal (WAS)
13
8%
Kemba Walker (BOS)
14
8%
Blake Griffin (DET)
24
14%
Ben Simmons (PHI)
12
7%
Luka Doncic (DAL)
18
11%
Donovan Mitchell (UTA)
8
5%
Victor Oladipo (IND)
1
1%
Kyle Lowry (TOR)
10
6%
 
Total votes: 171

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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#16 2019-20 

Post#61 » by iggymcfrack » Fri Aug 9, 2019 1:13 pm

SuperPawgHunter wrote:
sixerswillrule wrote:
SuperPawgHunter wrote:
Dude, Kyle Lowry is a career 14ppg game, on 42 percent shooting from the field.

I didn't even know that until I looked it up.

Dude, go take your damn medicine.


Travel agents, pay phones, and field goal percentage. All useful 30 years ago but now obsolete.


So the stat that tells you how accurate a player is shooting the ball is obsolete? Do you know what obsolete means???

Trust me, I know where you calculator, advanced metric, pocket-protector nerds are going with this argument - but I just want you to consider you said field goal percentage is obsolete. Obsolete. O-B-S-O-L-E-T-E.

The Pelicans should make Lonzo Ball their no. 1 scoring option, 'cause FG% is obsolete. Accuracy doesn't matter. Just keep chucking it up there. Who cares if there are only so many possessions in a game, and it's smartest to let your most accurate shooters shoot the ball, to give yourself a great chance of scoring on those possessions.

I need to leave this forum. The level of stupid I've encountered on this forum in the short while I've been here, by far surpasses anything I've witnesses anywhere else. That's actually kind of scary.


Raw shooting percentage that doesn’t account for whether the shot was a 2-pointer or a 3-pointer is obsolete in an era where 36% of all shots taken are 3-pointers yes. Lowry’s taken over 60% of his shots from 3-point range each of the last 2 years and he’s a very efficient shooter. His TS% of .562, .598, .623, and .578 the last 4 years have all been better than league average.
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#16 2019-20 

Post#62 » by Yallbecrazy » Fri Aug 9, 2019 1:21 pm

smh @ people thinking Kyrie is better than Kyle. All Kyle does is win, kyrie is all flash no substance.
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#16 2019-20 

Post#63 » by iggymcfrack » Fri Aug 9, 2019 1:27 pm

Yallbecrazy wrote:smh @ people thinking Kyrie is better than Kyle. All Kyle does is win, kyrie is all flash no substance.


Seriously, Kyrie just played 2 seasons with the Celtics. With him In the lineup they played at a 48-win pace in the regular season and lost 4-1 to the Bucks in the second round. With him in street clothes, they played at a 58-win pace in the regular season and had a 4th quarter lead with 6:00 left in Game 7 of the Eastern conference finals. I guess winning’s just “for nerds” though.
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#16 2019-20 

Post#64 » by Yallbecrazy » Fri Aug 9, 2019 1:37 pm

iggymcfrack wrote:
Yallbecrazy wrote:smh @ people thinking Kyrie is better than Kyle. All Kyle does is win, kyrie is all flash no substance.


Seriously, Kyrie just played 2 seasons with the Celtics. With him In the lineup they played at a 48-win pace in the regular season and lost 4-1 to the Bucks in the second round. With him in street clothes, they played at a 58-win pace in the regular season and had a 4th quarter lead with 6:00 left in Game 7 of the Eastern conference finals. I guess winning’s just “for nerds” though.


Even the eye test shows how valuable Kyle is to an offense. Watch when he's not in the game and the offense stagnates, the team often goes on scoring droughts. He gets everyone to where they have to be and gets the ball to where it needs to go, every time. He's an elite coach on the floor, best floor general in the game.
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#16 2019-20 

Post#65 » by The Real Dalic » Fri Aug 9, 2019 1:50 pm

Voted Irving again.

Still crazy to me that Green is two spots higher than last year after his worst year since the Warriors have been a dynasty.
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#16 2019-20 

Post#66 » by sixerswillrule » Fri Aug 9, 2019 1:51 pm

SuperPawgHunter wrote:
sixerswillrule wrote:
SuperPawgHunter wrote:
Dude, Kyle Lowry is a career 14ppg game, on 42 percent shooting from the field.

I didn't even know that until I looked it up.

Dude, go take your damn medicine.


Travel agents, pay phones, and field goal percentage. All useful 30 years ago but now obsolete.


So the stat that tells you how accurate a player is shooting the ball is obsolete? Do you know what obsolete means???

Trust me, I know where you calculator, advanced metric, pocket-protector nerds are going with this argument - but I just want you to consider you said field goal percentage is obsolete. Obsolete. O-B-S-O-L-E-T-E.

The Pelicans should make Lonzo Ball their no. 1 scoring option, 'cause FG% is obsolete. Accuracy doesn't matter. Just keep chucking it up there. Who cares if there are only so many possessions in a game, and it's smartest to let your most accurate shooters shoot the ball, to give yourself a great chance of scoring on those possessions.

I need to leave this forum. The level of stupid I've encountered on this forum in the short while I've been here, by far surpasses anything I've witnesses anywhere else. That's actually kind of scary.


:noway:

Accuracy matters. Points per possession matters. FG% is worse than other stats at showing that so it's obsolete.
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#16 2019-20 

Post#67 » by ProcessDoctor » Fri Aug 9, 2019 2:04 pm

Please remove Durant.

Not that Klay has been added yet, but it’ll be hard to declare him a top 25 player next season if he only plays March-May. Not sure he’s a candidate for this poll.
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#16 2019-20 

Post#68 » by leolozon » Fri Aug 9, 2019 2:15 pm

Metallikid wrote:
leolozon wrote:
Metallikid wrote:
Chris Paul hasn't even been nominated yet and he was chosen in the top 10 last year. People on this forum have no consistency or criteria by which they make their judgements it's all who's the flavour of the month.


Or maybe Chris Paul just had The worst year of his career and is going to be 34... why are you acting as if things don’t change from year to year?

If people voted Chris Paul top 10 again, then people would really have no criteria.

We vote for the best players in 2019-2020. Not who had the best body of work in the past.


He was coming back from an injury. His ppg went down 3 and his fg% went down .040. That's not enough for him to suddenly not even be considered in the top 25, since 15 people have already been voted in plus 10 nominations? Chris Paul is still a damn good player.


Everyone should stop using FG% when a better option exists. But .040 and 3ppg is a lot. For PPG, it's the difference between being 35th in 2018 and 75th in 2019. It's a 40 position drop in PPG. What do you think is the difference between the 10th best guy and the 25th best guy?

While he was playing in 2018-2019 he must have been the 20-25 best player in the league. But he's going to be 1 year older, out of his prime and he's 6'0. He should be worst next year most of the times.

As for the injury, Chris Paul is injury prone and I doubt it gets better with age. He played 61-58-58 in the past 3 years. What's the over-under for 2020 when so far he has no incencitive to play for his team?
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#16 2019-20 

Post#69 » by Gooner » Fri Aug 9, 2019 2:19 pm

SuperPawgHunter wrote:
sixerswillrule wrote:
SuperPawgHunter wrote:
Dude, Kyle Lowry is a career 14ppg game, on 42 percent shooting from the field.

I didn't even know that until I looked it up.

Dude, go take your damn medicine.


Travel agents, pay phones, and field goal percentage. All useful 30 years ago but now obsolete.


So the stat that tells you how accurate a player is shooting the ball is obsolete? Do you know what obsolete means???

Trust me, I know where you calculator, advanced metric, pocket-protector nerds are going with this argument - but I just want you to consider you said field goal percentage is obsolete. Obsolete. O-B-S-O-L-E-T-E.

The Pelicans should make Lonzo Ball their no. 1 scoring option, 'cause FG% is obsolete. Accuracy doesn't matter. Just keep chucking it up there. Who cares if there are only so many possessions in a game, and it's smartest to let your most accurate shooters shoot the ball, to give yourself a great chance of scoring on those possessions.

I need to leave this forum. The level of stupid I've encountered on this forum in the short while I've been here, by far surpasses anything I've witnesses anywhere else. That's actually kind of scary.


Tell me about it. I couldn't believe some of the stuff I've discussed with people here. Most of these are not even basketball discussions, It's some fantasy s**t.
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#16 2019-20 

Post#70 » by iggymcfrack » Fri Aug 9, 2019 2:24 pm

leolozon wrote:
Metallikid wrote:
leolozon wrote:
Or maybe Chris Paul just had The worst year of his career and is going to be 34... why are you acting as if things don’t change from year to year?

If people voted Chris Paul top 10 again, then people would really have no criteria.

We vote for the best players in 2019-2020. Not who had the best body of work in the past.


He was coming back from an injury. His ppg went down 3 and his fg% went down .040. That's not enough for him to suddenly not even be considered in the top 25, since 15 people have already been voted in plus 10 nominations? Chris Paul is still a damn good player.


Everyone should stop using FG% when a better option exists. But .040 and 3ppg is a lot. For PPG, it's the difference between being 35th in 2018 and 75th in 2019. It's a 40 position drop in PPG. What do you think is the difference between the 10th best guy and the 25th best guy?

While he was playing in 2018-2019 he must have been the 20-25 best player in the league. But he's going to be 1 year older, out of his prime and he's 6'0. He should be worst next year most of the times.

As for the injury, Chris Paul is injury prone and I doubt it gets better with age. He played 61-58-58 in the past 3 years. What's the over-under for this year when so far he has no incencitive to play for his team?


He was still 12th in the league in RPM, and his box score stats only really dipped when playing next to Harden. He was still averaging 20+ per 36 when Harden was on the bench. I think he was still definitely a top 20 player when healthy last season, and I expect him to surprise people with how good he is in OKC this year with the keys to the offense again.
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#16 2019-20 

Post#71 » by Gooner » Fri Aug 9, 2019 2:31 pm

Yallbecrazy wrote:smh @ people thinking Kyrie is better than Kyle. All Kyle does is win, kyrie is all flash no substance.


Kyrie won before Kyle, and he averaged 27 in the finals, while Kyle was a third option. Not to mention he is much younger.
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#16 2019-20 

Post#72 » by leolozon » Fri Aug 9, 2019 2:36 pm

iggymcfrack wrote:
leolozon wrote:
Metallikid wrote:
He was coming back from an injury. His ppg went down 3 and his fg% went down .040. That's not enough for him to suddenly not even be considered in the top 25, since 15 people have already been voted in plus 10 nominations? Chris Paul is still a damn good player.


Everyone should stop using FG% when a better option exists. But .040 and 3ppg is a lot. For PPG, it's the difference between being 35th in 2018 and 75th in 2019. It's a 40 position drop in PPG. What do you think is the difference between the 10th best guy and the 25th best guy?

While he was playing in 2018-2019 he must have been the 20-25 best player in the league. But he's going to be 1 year older, out of his prime and he's 6'0. He should be worst next year most of the times.

As for the injury, Chris Paul is injury prone and I doubt it gets better with age. He played 61-58-58 in the past 3 years. What's the over-under for this year when so far he has no incencitive to play for his team?


He was still 12th in the league in RPM, and his box score stats only really dipped when playing next to Harden. He was still averaging 20+ per 36 when Harden was on the bench. I think he was still definitely a top 20 player when healthy last season, and I expect him to surprise people with how good he is in OKC this year with the keys to the offense again.


Maybe. I personally don't feel good about predicting a top 25 for a 6'0 injury prone 34 years old player. Even if said player is a top 5 PG of all-time.

AS for RPM, it's just one tool, Dany Green was 13th and I don't think he's showing any time soon. Vucevic was 8th and people are still not nominating him and he averaged 21/12/4 and was an all-star last year. So by any metric, Vucevic should go up before CP3.
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#16 2019-20 

Post#73 » by iggymcfrack » Fri Aug 9, 2019 3:05 pm

leolozon wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
leolozon wrote:
Everyone should stop using FG% when a better option exists. But .040 and 3ppg is a lot. For PPG, it's the difference between being 35th in 2018 and 75th in 2019. It's a 40 position drop in PPG. What do you think is the difference between the 10th best guy and the 25th best guy?

While he was playing in 2018-2019 he must have been the 20-25 best player in the league. But he's going to be 1 year older, out of his prime and he's 6'0. He should be worst next year most of the times.

As for the injury, Chris Paul is injury prone and I doubt it gets better with age. He played 61-58-58 in the past 3 years. What's the over-under for this year when so far he has no incencitive to play for his team?


He was still 12th in the league in RPM, and his box score stats only really dipped when playing next to Harden. He was still averaging 20+ per 36 when Harden was on the bench. I think he was still definitely a top 20 player when healthy last season, and I expect him to surprise people with how good he is in OKC this year with the keys to the offense again.


Maybe. I personally don't feel good about predicting a top 25 for a 6'0 injury prone 34 years old player. Even if said player is a top 5 PG of all-time.

AS for RPM, it's just one tool, Dany Green was 13th and I don't think he's showing any time soon. Vucevic was 8th and people are still not nominating him and he averaged 21/12/4 and was an all-star last year. So by any metric, Vucevic should go up before CP3.


Yeah, but there’s a difference between one fluke year in the top 10 when you’ve never been close to that before and dipping to #12 when you’ve been top 6 each of the previous 5 years. Also Vucevic has a career playoff PER of 9.9 on .432 TS% with an on/off of -17.4. If I only had Chris Paul as a Top 5 PG all-time I probably wouldn’t be as confident in him being top 20 this year. Personally I have him as the best point guard in the history of the game.
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#16 2019-20 

Post#74 » by iggymcfrack » Fri Aug 9, 2019 3:09 pm

Gooner wrote:
Yallbecrazy wrote:smh @ people thinking Kyrie is better than Kyle. All Kyle does is win, kyrie is all flash no substance.


Kyrie won before Kyle, and he averaged 27 in the finals, while Kyle was a third option. Not to mention he is much younger.


If you wanna judge everything in PPG, then Kyrie was a “second option” and Lowry was a “third option”. If you’re doing that, you might as well have Devin Booker as a Top 10 guy though. In terms of how crucial they were to their team’s overall postseason success, Lowry was more critical to the Raptors’ ring than Kyrie was to the Cavs ring though. The Cavs actually played better with Kyrie on the bench than they did with him on the floor in the ‘16 playoffs. The Raptors were 11 points better with Lowry on the floor than on the bench in the ‘19 playoffs.
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#16 2019-20 

Post#75 » by iggymcfrack » Fri Aug 9, 2019 3:30 pm

One actual good point against Lowry: he just played 24 playoff games at age 32 and now he’s going to lead the US men’s national team as their best player in the FIBA World Cup. That’s a lot of mileage. I could see him really wearing down over the course of the season if the Raptors don’t practice load management. Honestly, you could make a pretty good case for either Lowry or Simmons in this spot. Still not seeing Kyrie though. Would be a lot easier if we just had Siakam, CP3, or Jrue as options who all should have gone ahead of Westbrook and Gobert IMO.
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#16 2019-20 

Post#76 » by Gooner » Fri Aug 9, 2019 3:30 pm

iggymcfrack wrote:
Gooner wrote:
Yallbecrazy wrote:smh @ people thinking Kyrie is better than Kyle. All Kyle does is win, kyrie is all flash no substance.


Kyrie won before Kyle, and he averaged 27 in the finals, while Kyle was a third option. Not to mention he is much younger.


If you wanna judge everything in PPG, then Kyrie was a “second option” and Lowry was a “third option”. If you’re doing that, you might as well have Devin Booker as a Top 10 guy though. In terms of how crucial they were to their team’s overall postseason success, Lowry was more critical to the Raptors’ ring than Kyrie was to the Cavs ring though. The Cavs actually played better with Kyrie on the bench than they did with him on the floor in the ‘16 playoffs. The Raptors were 11 points better with Lowry on the floor than on the bench in the ‘19 playoffs.


Yeah yeah, and Spurs play better without both Aldirdge and DeRozan too. They should have built their team around Davis Bertans and Patty Mills. That's what stats say. Pop ahould ask you for basketball lessons..
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#16 2019-20 

Post#77 » by iggymcfrack » Fri Aug 9, 2019 3:32 pm

Gooner wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
Gooner wrote:
Kyrie won before Kyle, and he averaged 27 in the finals, while Kyle was a third option. Not to mention he is much younger.


If you wanna judge everything in PPG, then Kyrie was a “second option” and Lowry was a “third option”. If you’re doing that, you might as well have Devin Booker as a Top 10 guy though. In terms of how crucial they were to their team’s overall postseason success, Lowry was more critical to the Raptors’ ring than Kyrie was to the Cavs ring though. The Cavs actually played better with Kyrie on the bench than they did with him on the floor in the ‘16 playoffs. The Raptors were 11 points better with Lowry on the floor than on the bench in the ‘19 playoffs.


Yeah yeah, and Spurs play better without both Aldirdge and DeRozan too. They should have built their team around Davis Bertans and Patty Mills. That's what stats say. Pop ahould ask you for basketball lessons..


I mean I don’t actually think the Spurs were better without Aldridge. He just got hurt by playing a lot of minutes with Derozan. I’m just saying that if he’s not good enough to counter playing some minutes with Derozan any more, he’s no longer a top 30 player at this age. Derozan is a piece of trash and he shouldn’t start for any team in the NBA. I feel very confident in that assessment. In a Sweet Lou type bench scorer role, I think he might possibly be effective.
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#16 2019-20 

Post#78 » by Gooner » Fri Aug 9, 2019 3:43 pm

iggymcfrack wrote:
Gooner wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
If you wanna judge everything in PPG, then Kyrie was a “second option” and Lowry was a “third option”. If you’re doing that, you might as well have Devin Booker as a Top 10 guy though. In terms of how crucial they were to their team’s overall postseason success, Lowry was more critical to the Raptors’ ring than Kyrie was to the Cavs ring though. The Cavs actually played better with Kyrie on the bench than they did with him on the floor in the ‘16 playoffs. The Raptors were 11 points better with Lowry on the floor than on the bench in the ‘19 playoffs.


Yeah yeah, and Spurs play better without both Aldirdge and DeRozan too. They should have built their team around Davis Bertans and Patty Mills. That's what stats say. Pop ahould ask you for basketball lessons..


I mean I don’t actually think the Spurs were better without Aldridge. He just got hurt by playing a lot of minutes with Derozan. I’m just saying that if he’s not good enough to counter playing some minutes with Derozan any more, he’s no longer a top 30 player at this age. Derozan is a piece of trash and he shouldn’t start for any team in the NBA. I feel very confident in that assessment. In a Sweet Lou type bench scorer role, I think he might possibly be effective.


The excuse you've just made for Aldridge, you can make for anyone else, by just calling one of their teammates a "piece fo trash", even if that teammate is a 4 time all star, and a guy that they got for Kawhi Leonard. Pop must be a piece of trash as a coach and president of basketball operations. You should help him with team USA selection too.
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#16 2019-20 

Post#79 » by iggymcfrack » Fri Aug 9, 2019 3:51 pm

Gooner wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
Gooner wrote:
Yeah yeah, and Spurs play better without both Aldirdge and DeRozan too. They should have built their team around Davis Bertans and Patty Mills. That's what stats say. Pop ahould ask you for basketball lessons..


I mean I don’t actually think the Spurs were better without Aldridge. He just got hurt by playing a lot of minutes with Derozan. I’m just saying that if he’s not good enough to counter playing some minutes with Derozan any more, he’s no longer a top 30 player at this age. Derozan is a piece of trash and he shouldn’t start for any team in the NBA. I feel very confident in that assessment. In a Sweet Lou type bench scorer role, I think he might possibly be effective.


The excuse you've just made for Aldridge, you can make for anyone else, by just calling one of their teammates a "piece fo trash", even if that teammate is a 4 time all star, and a guy that they got for Kawhi Leonard. Pop must be a piece of trash as a coach and president of basketball operations. You should help him with team USA selection too.


He’s the best coach of all-time, but he made a really, really bad trade for Derozan. Call it hubris I guess thinking that he must be able to turn a player that talented into a productive basketball player. Sometimes you take a bad heat check shot and it misses. Happens to the best of us.
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Re: RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#16 2019-20 

Post#80 » by Gooner » Fri Aug 9, 2019 4:02 pm

iggymcfrack wrote:
Gooner wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
I mean I don’t actually think the Spurs were better without Aldridge. He just got hurt by playing a lot of minutes with Derozan. I’m just saying that if he’s not good enough to counter playing some minutes with Derozan any more, he’s no longer a top 30 player at this age. Derozan is a piece of trash and he shouldn’t start for any team in the NBA. I feel very confident in that assessment. In a Sweet Lou type bench scorer role, I think he might possibly be effective.


The excuse you've just made for Aldridge, you can make for anyone else, by just calling one of their teammates a "piece fo trash", even if that teammate is a 4 time all star, and a guy that they got for Kawhi Leonard. Pop must be a piece of trash as a coach and president of basketball operations. You should help him with team USA selection too.


He’s the best coach of all-time, but he made a really, really bad trade for Derozan. Call it hubris I guess thinking that he must be able to turn a player that talented into a productive basketball player. Sometimes you take a bad heat check shot and it misses. Happens to the best of us.


That was not a draft pick, it was not some heat check he took on a prospect who ultimately didn't pan out. Pop knew exactly who DeRozan was as a player, and whole league knows who he is and what he does. He decided to bring him in because of his characteristics as a player. Coach K decided to bring him into olympic and fiba world cup teams. Other coaches voted him as all star 4 times. You must know better than all of them. You should be a psychologist too, and explain to people like Pop that they are delusional beacuse of their hubris.

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