Where do you guys rank Kyle Lowry?

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Total votes: 231

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Re: Where do you guys rank Kyle Lowry? 

Post#141 » by GeorgeMarcus » Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:54 pm

Prokorov wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
Why would you drop kyrie from the list when he has been significantly better then lowry in the playoffs for their career?

playoff kyrie:

24/5/3 on 45/40/88 - 56 TS%, 21.5 PER

playoff lowry:

15/6/4 on 42/35/79 - 54 TS%, 15.5 PER

did kyrie lay an egg vs. the bucks? sure... but lowry has laid a bunch of eggs in playoff serires.


Your first problem is that you’re trying to measure Lowry in box stats. That’s like measuring Draymond in box stats. There’s a reason Lowry has been better than Kyrie in RPM/RAPM every year. He’s more complete/more seamless/and more conducive to a winning formula. I’d call that better.

The playoff Lowry narrative was always a hoax (contrived by ppgz people) but even if it wasn’t he put that to rest this year. Compared to Kyrie who stunk to high heaven.


Hoax? so lowry shooting under 40% from the field in playoff series losses didnt really happen? several times?


Lowry's playoff on/off in TOR:
2014: +10.4
2015: +15.4
2016: +24.8
2017: +8.9
2018: +2.4
2019: +11.9

He did that despite playing the bulk of his minutes with DD, who put up the following:
2014: -6.6
2015: -7.9
2016: -4.8
2017: -13.1
2018: -19.9
2019 (SAS): -25.8

The data is really straight forward if you know where to look. Lowry was never the problem.
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Re: Where do you guys rank Kyle Lowry? 

Post#142 » by RaptorPride » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:05 pm

GeorgeMarcus wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:
Your first problem is that you’re trying to measure Lowry in box stats. That’s like measuring Draymond in box stats. There’s a reason Lowry has been better than Kyrie in RPM/RAPM every year. He’s more complete/more seamless/and more conducive to a winning formula. I’d call that better.

The playoff Lowry narrative was always a hoax (contrived by ppgz people) but even if it wasn’t he put that to rest this year. Compared to Kyrie who stunk to high heaven.


Hoax? so lowry shooting under 40% from the field in playoff series losses didnt really happen? several times?


Lowry's playoff on/off in TOR:
2014: +10.4
2015: +15.4
2016: +24.8
2017: +8.9
2018: +2.4
2019: +11.9

He did that despite playing the bulk of his minutes with DD, who put up the following:
2014: -6.6
2015: -7.9
2016: -4.8
2017: -13.1
2018: -19.9
2019 (SAS): -25.8

The data is really straight forward if you know where to look. Lowry was never the problem.

Also, lead his team to a top 3 seed with 50+ wins for about 5 or 6 years straight.
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Re: Where do you guys rank Kyle Lowry? 

Post#143 » by Rockice_24 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:12 pm

The_Hater wrote:
Rockice_24 wrote:Lowery better not make the hall of fame. It would be a disgrace to the true NBA greats. Guy is a really solid player and scrappy as hell but HOF, na I'm good.

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What an absolutely terrible post.

Calvin Murphy, KC Jones and Bill Bradley are in the HOF among others, take 5 minutes and go look at the career stats and accolades for each of those players.



HAHAHAHA

Please stop comparing guys who played in 1932 to guys playing now. Equally terrible analogy.

Calvin Murphy was a fringe HOF player but was still an efficient scorer for the 80's and Bill Bradley should never have made the Hall equally as bad that he is in if Lowery should go in. Perfect comparison there.

Thanks for proving my point. Lowery is on the same level as undeserving HOF players.

14ppg on 42% shooting career averages in a scoring era. Hard pass.

Again scrappy player did the little things but you don't make the hall taking charges.
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Re: Where do you guys rank Kyle Lowry? 

Post#144 » by MoneyTalks41890 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:23 pm

He's a winner. And I'm glad he's shed the label he got from losing to LeBron so many times. And he's very solid on both sides of the ball. But I don't think he's a top 5 PG, more like fringe top 10, and he's pretty old now so I think we can expect a pretty steep decline going forward. He's probably a top 50 player overall.
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Re: Where do you guys rank Kyle Lowry? 

Post#145 » by GeorgeMarcus » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:24 pm

Rockice_24 wrote:
The_Hater wrote:
Rockice_24 wrote:Lowery better not make the hall of fame. It would be a disgrace to the true NBA greats. Guy is a really solid player and scrappy as hell but HOF, na I'm good.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using RealGM mobile app


What an absolutely terrible post.

Calvin Murphy, KC Jones and Bill Bradley are in the HOF among others, take 5 minutes and go look at the career stats and accolades for each of those players.



HAHAHAHA

Please stop comparing guys who played in 1932 to guys playing now. Equally terrible analogy.

Calvin Murphy was a fringe HOF player but was still an efficient scorer for the 80's and Bill Bradley should never have made the Hall equally as bad that he is in if Lowery should go in. Perfect comparison there.

Thanks for proving my point. Lowery is on the same level as undeserving HOF players.

14ppg on 42% shooting career averages in a scoring era. Hard pass.

Again scrappy player did the little things but you don't make the hall taking charges.


You're citing raw FG% for a guy that takes half his FG's from 3. You don't see the problem with that? FG% has no place in basketball discussion... TS% or at least eFG% does the trick.
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Re: Where do you guys rank Kyle Lowry? 

Post#146 » by Prokorov » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:00 pm

GeorgeMarcus wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:
Your first problem is that you’re trying to measure Lowry in box stats. That’s like measuring Draymond in box stats. There’s a reason Lowry has been better than Kyrie in RPM/RAPM every year. He’s more complete/more seamless/and more conducive to a winning formula. I’d call that better.

The playoff Lowry narrative was always a hoax (contrived by ppgz people) but even if it wasn’t he put that to rest this year. Compared to Kyrie who stunk to high heaven.


Hoax? so lowry shooting under 40% from the field in playoff series losses didnt really happen? several times?


Lowry's playoff on/off in TOR:
2014: +10.4
2015: +15.4
2016: +24.8
2017: +8.9
2018: +2.4
2019: +11.9

He did that despite playing the bulk of his minutes with DD, who put up the following:
2014: -6.6
2015: -7.9
2016: -4.8
2017: -13.1
2018: -19.9
2019 (SAS): -25.8

The data is really straight forward if you know where to look. Lowry was never the problem.


we have already gone over time and time gain why context-less on/off is completely useless
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Re: Where do you guys rank Kyle Lowry? 

Post#147 » by The_Hater » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:04 pm

Rockice_24 wrote:
The_Hater wrote:
Rockice_24 wrote:Lowery better not make the hall of fame. It would be a disgrace to the true NBA greats. Guy is a really solid player and scrappy as hell but HOF, na I'm good.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using RealGM mobile app


What an absolutely terrible post.

Calvin Murphy, KC Jones and Bill Bradley are in the HOF among others, take 5 minutes and go look at the career stats and accolades for each of those players.



HAHAHAHA

Please stop comparing guys who played in 1932 to guys playing now. Equally terrible analogy.

Calvin Murphy was a fringe HOF player but was still an efficient scorer for the 80's and Bill Bradley should never have made the Hall equally as bad that he is in if Lowery should go in. Perfect comparison there.

Thanks for proving my point. Lowery is on the same level as undeserving HOF players.

14ppg on 42% shooting career averages in a scoring era. Hard pass.

Again scrappy player did the little things but you don't make the hall taking charges.


You completely missed the point. Well done.

Not to mention that a minimal research would have told you that the 1960’s and 1970’s were a much higher scoring era that than the 2010’s. So spewing incorrect facts to form a poor opinion doesn’t make you the winner of this debate.
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Re: Where do you guys rank Kyle Lowry? 

Post#148 » by The_Hater » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:09 pm

Prokorov wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
Hoax? so lowry shooting under 40% from the field in playoff series losses didnt really happen? several times?


Lowry's playoff on/off in TOR:
2014: +10.4
2015: +15.4
2016: +24.8
2017: +8.9
2018: +2.4
2019: +11.9

He did that despite playing the bulk of his minutes with DD, who put up the following:
2014: -6.6
2015: -7.9
2016: -4.8
2017: -13.1
2018: -19.9
2019 (SAS): -25.8

The data is really straight forward if you know where to look. Lowry was never the problem.


we have already gone over time and time gain why context-less on/off is completely useless


“Time and time again”. Priceless. What times are these that you tried to educate everyone else?

The worst poster on realgm is going to tell everyone now which stats are the ones we should be ignoring! Not because they’re wrong, but because says they lack context. I would ask you to explain your logic here, but I’m afraid it would be yet another head-shaking exercise where you just talk in circles. Meanwhile this information couldn’t be more clear to the rest of us. You’re the one that lacking in the understanding here.
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Re: Where do you guys rank Kyle Lowry? 

Post#149 » by GeorgeMarcus » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:10 pm

Prokorov wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
Hoax? so lowry shooting under 40% from the field in playoff series losses didnt really happen? several times?


Lowry's playoff on/off in TOR:
2014: +10.4
2015: +15.4
2016: +24.8
2017: +8.9
2018: +2.4
2019: +11.9

He did that despite playing the bulk of his minutes with DD, who put up the following:
2014: -6.6
2015: -7.9
2016: -4.8
2017: -13.1
2018: -19.9
2019 (SAS): -25.8

The data is really straight forward if you know where to look. Lowry was never the problem.


we have already gone over time and time gain why context-less on/off is completely useless


It's not useless at all, and to suggest that it is implies you don't have a solid grasp of the stat. The "context" comes from a basic understanding of the roster, which I assume all of us posting on an NBA message board have.
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Re: Where do you guys rank Kyle Lowry? 

Post#150 » by Buzzard » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:22 pm

I like him for where he is now in his career. I would give him a top ten but top five all time from the active point guards is really close. I don't think he is outside the top 6 or 7. Secondly, I would not trade any of the young upcoming point guards for him now. Example, I will keep Trae Young for the next ten years vs Lowry for the next two to four easily.
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Re: Where do you guys rank Kyle Lowry? 

Post#151 » by mademan » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:22 pm

Prokorov wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
Hoax? so lowry shooting under 40% from the field in playoff series losses didnt really happen? several times?


Lowry's playoff on/off in TOR:
2014: +10.4
2015: +15.4
2016: +24.8
2017: +8.9
2018: +2.4
2019: +11.9

He did that despite playing the bulk of his minutes with DD, who put up the following:
2014: -6.6
2015: -7.9
2016: -4.8
2017: -13.1
2018: -19.9
2019 (SAS): -25.8

The data is really straight forward if you know where to look. Lowry was never the problem.


we have already gone over time and time gain why context-less on/off is completely useless


Year over year +/- is extremely useful. Even moreso when the makeup of the team has changed so much over the years.
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Re: Where do you guys rank Kyle Lowry? 

Post#152 » by iggymcfrack » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:30 pm

GeorgeMarcus wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:
Lowry's playoff on/off in TOR:
2014: +10.4
2015: +15.4
2016: +24.8
2017: +8.9
2018: +2.4
2019: +11.9

He did that despite playing the bulk of his minutes with DD, who put up the following:
2014: -6.6
2015: -7.9
2016: -4.8
2017: -13.1
2018: -19.9
2019 (SAS): -25.8

The data is really straight forward if you know where to look. Lowry was never the problem.


we have already gone over time and time gain why context-less on/off is completely useless


It's not useless at all, and to suggest that it is implies you don't have a solid grasp of the stat. The "context" comes from a basic understanding of the roster, which I assume all of us posting on an NBA message board have.


Yeah, the context is that those two guys are the primary engines of the offense who played a lot of minutes together on the same team. And in a 6 year span, one was very positive and one was very negative every year. The context is certainly not lacking.
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Re: Where do you guys rank Kyle Lowry? 

Post#153 » by GeorgeMarcus » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:35 pm

iggymcfrack wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
we have already gone over time and time gain why context-less on/off is completely useless


It's not useless at all, and to suggest that it is implies you don't have a solid grasp of the stat. The "context" comes from a basic understanding of the roster, which I assume all of us posting on an NBA message board have.


Yeah, the context is that those two guys are the primary engines of the offense who played a lot of minutes together on the same team. And in a 6 year span, one was very positive and one was very negative every year. The context is certainly not lacking.


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Re: Where do you guys rank Kyle Lowry? 

Post#154 » by XxIronChainzxX » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:41 pm

Prokorov wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
Hoax? so lowry shooting under 40% from the field in playoff series losses didnt really happen? several times?


Lowry's playoff on/off in TOR:
2014: +10.4
2015: +15.4
2016: +24.8
2017: +8.9
2018: +2.4
2019: +11.9

He did that despite playing the bulk of his minutes with DD, who put up the following:
2014: -6.6
2015: -7.9
2016: -4.8
2017: -13.1
2018: -19.9
2019 (SAS): -25.8

The data is really straight forward if you know where to look. Lowry was never the problem.


we have already gone over time and time gain why context-less on/off is completely useless


That's not context free. We're talking about a backcourt that plays a huge chunk of their minutes together and are backed up by the same set of players. The astronomical difference in their on-off is pretty shocking.
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Re: Where do you guys rank Kyle Lowry? 

Post#155 » by XxIronChainzxX » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:43 pm

Buzzard wrote:I like him for where he is now in his career. I would give him a top ten but top five all time from the active point guards is really close. I don't think he is outside the top 6 or 7. Secondly, I would not trade any of the young upcoming point guards for him now. Example, I will keep Trae Young for the next ten years vs Lowry for the next two to four easily.


Yeah, but that's because you'd have to be insane to take Lowry for the future. He's 33 turning 34. He'll be lucky to be a rotation player in 4 years, and I think he'd be an HOF guard if DeRozan didn't steal all his deserved credit.
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Re: Where do you guys rank Kyle Lowry? 

Post#156 » by Buzzard » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:48 pm

XxIronChainzxX wrote:
Buzzard wrote:I like him for where he is now in his career. I would give him a top ten but top five all time from the active point guards is really close. I don't think he is outside the top 6 or 7. Secondly, I would not trade any of the young upcoming point guards for him now. Example, I will keep Trae Young for the next ten years vs Lowry for the next two to four easily.


Yeah, but that's because you'd have to be insane to take Lowry for the future. He's 33 turning 34. He'll be lucky to be a rotation player in 4 years, and I think he'd be an HOF guard if DeRozan didn't steal all his deserved credit.

That was my point concerning Trae or any of the up and coming point guards. Raptors could always do LeBron a good turn and ship him to Laker Land for Kuzma and filler :lol:
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Re: Where do you guys rank Kyle Lowry? 

Post#157 » by NirvanaFC » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:51 pm

Lowry is the NBA litmus test. If you think he's outside of top 10 for the upcoming season, you need to watch more basketball and/or learn advanced stats.
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Re: Where do you guys rank Kyle Lowry? 

Post#158 » by Marty_Budda » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:59 pm

lakerz12 wrote:
RaptorPride wrote:
Cal And Jay wrote:I'm not a big fan of guards that can't create off the dribble and aren't dynamite from 3. Plus he doesn't have the quickest release. Top 30 for me, probably in the 22-23 range

Please watch this


He can create off the dribble and is also a very good three-point shooter.
Image

He's been taking 7 three-pointers per game for the past couple season at hitting at or close to 40% so I don't know who that's not dynamite from three. Majority of his points comes from threes. And don't forget this was with DeMar beside him with no floor spacing.
Image


34.7% is “close to 40%”?

He’s 36.7% for his career. That is average.

Even if you eliminate his first 6 seasons where he was worse, he’s at 37.8% for his past 9 seasons.

That is good. Not great.


You need to lay off 2k my guy. Much more to basketball than having a quick release. Also this year aside, Lowry has been great creating off the dribble. And 38% from 3 on high volume over the past 9 years is very good shooting. Not goat level like curry and klay...but very good
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Re: Where do you guys rank Kyle Lowry? 

Post#159 » by The_Hater » Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:02 pm

XxIronChainzxX wrote:
Buzzard wrote:I like him for where he is now in his career. I would give him a top ten but top five all time from the active point guards is really close. I don't think he is outside the top 6 or 7. Secondly, I would not trade any of the young upcoming point guards for him now. Example, I will keep Trae Young for the next ten years vs Lowry for the next two to four easily.


Yeah, but that's because you'd have to be insane to take Lowry for the future. He's 33 turning 34. He'll be lucky to be a rotation player in 4 years, and I think he'd be an HOF guard if DeRozan didn't steal all his deserved credit.


Lowry will likely be retired in 4 years.

I’m not sure Derozan stole that much credit from Lowry, I think the biggest factor working against him is that he was in the league 7-8 years before becoming a true starter and all-star. For years he looked like nothing more than a role player. There are very few NBA careers if any with a similar career arc.
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Re: Where do you guys rank Kyle Lowry? 

Post#160 » by The_Hater » Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:05 pm

NirvanaFC wrote:Lowry is the NBA litmus test. If you think he's outside of top 10 for the upcoming season, you need to watch more basketball and/or learn advanced stats.


Al Horford and Draymond Green are also litmus tests. Some people just can’t look beyond scoring and see everything else involved in winning basketball games. Some players/fans get it, others don’t.
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