Would 76ers swap Simmons for Doncic if they could?

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Would 76ers swap Simmons for Doncic if they could?

Yes
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84%
No
75
16%
 
Total votes: 483

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Re: Would 76ers swap Simmons for Doncic if they could? 

Post#201 » by 76ersForLife » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:13 am

Euro fans always way overrate their own guys. I forget the guys name but the Pacers had a Euro pg that won over there and euro fans swore he was another Jason Kidd. Flamed out in a couple of seasons.

Doncic is a terrific prospect he is right on par with Ben but you would think he is the next larry bird the way he is being hyped.
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Re: Would 76ers swap Simmons for Doncic if they could? 

Post#202 » by Pg81 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:15 am

GeorgeMarcus wrote:
Pg81 wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:
I'm glad you edited your post to double down on your emotions. As you can see, clearly not a lie.


Um yes it is, keep cherry picking a singular meaningless stat instead of actually watching the games.


Haha, crazy how wins and losses are solely based on this "meaningless" stat.


Any stat in a vacuum is meaningless. If you believe that Doncic was the worst player on the team based on this cherry picking then well we have nothing to talk about. I mean never mind that he led the team in other stats like VORP, BPM and OBPM or that the team was on pace of winning about 20 more games, or that teams were constantly doubling him almost exclusively, but who cares, all that matters is +/-. :crazy:
But I am sure that bench players like Dwight Powell having the best season of their life is complete coincidence, hell I bet you will come up with the nonsense that Doncic held him back. :lol:
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Re: Would 76ers swap Simmons for Doncic if they could? 

Post#203 » by bargnanimvp » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:20 am

It kind of bothers me that some Australian media is trying to make out like Australian's don't like Simmons for racism reasons when they ignore the fact that Americans don't like Simmons either.

The guy is just a bit on the arrogant **** side regardless of his skin tone and accent...

That being said it shouldn't influence how you rate him as a player on the court. He is kind of on his way to being under rated like Dwight got due to how he acts and his off court character vs how he plays.
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Re: Would 76ers swap Simmons for Doncic if they could? 

Post#204 » by GeorgeMarcus » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:21 am

Pg81 wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:
Pg81 wrote:
Um yes it is, keep cherry picking a singular meaningless stat instead of actually watching the games.


Haha, crazy how wins and losses are solely based on this "meaningless" stat.


Any stat in a vacuum is meaningless. If you believe that Doncic was the worst player on the team based on this cherry picking then well we have nothing to talk about. I mean never mind that he led the team in other stats like VORP or OBPM or that the team was on pace of winning about 20 more games, but who cares, all that matters is +/-. :crazy:


I mean, I never said anything remotely close to that.

You blamed the Mavs lack of success on Luka's teammates. I debunked that claim by showing they performed better with him off the court. I don't like having words put in my mouth.
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Re: Would 76ers swap Simmons for Doncic if they could? 

Post#205 » by Pg81 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:28 am

GeorgeMarcus wrote:
Pg81 wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:
Haha, crazy how wins and losses are solely based on this "meaningless" stat.


Any stat in a vacuum is meaningless. If you believe that Doncic was the worst player on the team based on this cherry picking then well we have nothing to talk about. I mean never mind that he led the team in other stats like VORP or OBPM or that the team was on pace of winning about 20 more games, but who cares, all that matters is +/-. :crazy:


I mean, I never said anything even remotely close to that.

You blamed the Mavs lack of success on Luka's teammates. I debunked that claim by showing they performed better with him off the court. I don't like having words put in my mouth.


I put no words in my mouth I brought your "argument" to its logical conclusion, if the team is better without a certain player that should imply that he is the worst player and puts up only empty stats. The reason why some of his team mates could perform above what they usually put up is clearly a result of the opponents trying to stop Luca first and foremost, Powell having profited the most from it, if you had actually watched any Mavs game you would know this. As I have pointed out Luka led the team in many categories, apart from raw stats, like VORP, BPM and OBPM yet you conveniently leave that out alongside the fact that the team won quite a few more games with overall less talent and Dirk being literally on his last legs.
Also I blamed primarily the Mavs FO deciding to tank for the lack of success. Amazing how you continue to ignore everything that counters your "argument", tells me a lot about you. I would not even be surprised if you think that Powell was the best player because he sported the highest PER. :lol:
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Re: Would 76ers swap Simmons for Doncic if they could? 

Post#206 » by GeorgeMarcus » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:44 am

Pg81 wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:
Pg81 wrote:
Any stat in a vacuum is meaningless. If you believe that Doncic was the worst player on the team based on this cherry picking then well we have nothing to talk about. I mean never mind that he led the team in other stats like VORP or OBPM or that the team was on pace of winning about 20 more games, but who cares, all that matters is +/-. :crazy:


I mean, I never said anything even remotely close to that.

You blamed the Mavs lack of success on Luka's teammates. I debunked that claim by showing they performed better with him off the court. I don't like having words put in my mouth.


I put no words in my mouth I brought your "argument" to its logical conclusion, if the team is better without a certain player that should imply that he is the worst player and puts up only empty stats. The reason why some of his team mates could perform above what they usually put up is clearly a result of the opponents trying to stop Luca first and foremost, Powell having profited the most from it, if you had actually watched any Mavs game you would know this. As I have pointed out Luka led the team in many categories, apart from raw stats, like VORP, BPM and OBPM yet you conveniently leave that out alongside the fact that the team won quite a few more games with overall less talent and Dirk being literally on his last legs.
Also I blamed primarily the Mavs FO deciding to tank for the lack of success. Amazing how you continue to ignore everything that counters your "argument", tells me a lot about you. I would not even be surprised if you think that Powell was the best player because he sported the highest PER. :lol:


That's a fundamentally illogical conclusion, and one I won't spend time arguing. If you believe that's the logical conclusion then those are YOUR words, not mine. PER is a joke of a stat, and has nothing to do with impact (which is where I derive all of my arguments). This conversation has run its course...
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Re: Would 76ers swap Simmons for Doncic if they could? 

Post#207 » by Texas Chuck » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:56 am

GeorgeMarcus wrote:
You blamed the Mavs lack of success on Luka's teammates. I debunked that claim by showing they performed better with him off the court. I don't like having words put in my mouth.



Until he got hurt, the Mavs generally played Barea every minute Luka was off the court because they were the only two guys on the roster who could consistently create offense.

Seems logical that a veteran like Barea playing with guys he's played with for years in Powell, Harris, and Finney-Smith would be more effective than Luka first playing with the veteran starters then playing with a grab bag of largely junk after the KP trade.

Not sure that proves what you think it does. Mavs didn't win a lot of games because the Mavs didn't have a lot of talent--I mean after the trades who else who was playing for Dallas would you even call a starting caliber player? Probably nobody. So they weren't going to win a lot games. And it's not like Barnes, DSJ, DAJ, or Wes were some great shakes either last year.

Luka was clearly the most talented player, but in limited minutes Barea could run a better offense particularly since his unit was mostly going against other 2nd units.



Also as an aside I really like Ben Simmons and think way too much is made of what he doesn't do(shoot jumpers) and not enough credit is given for what he does well. I'm not here for a Luka vs another young player argument. Just saying it's probably fair to acknowledge other than the head coach, Luka wasn't put in a great situation to succeed as a rookie. Bad team.
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Re: Would 76ers swap Simmons for Doncic if they could? 

Post#208 » by Prokorov » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:16 am

stoo wrote:Yer or No or both


No Simmons is better with a higher ceiling
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Re: Would 76ers swap Simmons for Doncic if they could? 

Post#209 » by durden_tyler » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:30 am

Simmons was exposed in the playoffs. He'll eventually be exposed in the regular season too.

Not a scrub by any means but will never be a superstar. Doncic meanwhile is already the Star A in his team.
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Re: Would 76ers swap Simmons for Doncic if they could? 

Post#210 » by GeorgeMarcus » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:43 am

Texas Chuck wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:
You blamed the Mavs lack of success on Luka's teammates. I debunked that claim by showing they performed better with him off the court. I don't like having words put in my mouth.



Until he got hurt, the Mavs generally played Barea every minute Luka was off the court because they were the only two guys on the roster who could consistently create offense.

Seems logical that a veteran like Barea playing with guys he's played with for years in Powell, Harris, and Finney-Smith would be more effective than Luka first playing with the veteran starters then playing with a grab bag of largely junk after the KP trade.

Not sure that proves what you think it does. Mavs didn't win a lot of games because the Mavs didn't have a lot of talent--I mean after the trades who else who was playing for Dallas would you even call a starting caliber player? Probably nobody. So they weren't going to win a lot games. And it's not like Barnes, DSJ, DAJ, or Wes were some great shakes either last year.

Luka was clearly the most talented player, but in limited minutes Barea could run a better offense particularly since his unit was mostly going against other 2nd units.

Also as an aside I really like Ben Simmons and think way too much is made of what he doesn't do(shoot jumpers) and not enough credit is given for what he does well. I'm not here for a Luka vs another young player argument. Just saying it's probably fair to acknowledge other than the head coach, Luka wasn't put in a great situation to succeed as a rookie. Bad team.


Yeah so to validate your claim, 232 of Luka's 2,318 min were played with Barea. 520 of Luka's 1,618 min off the court were played with Barea. This is noteworthy and the kind of relevant context that adds value to on/off data. I don't believe it undermines my overarching point though which is, while Luka does have superstar potential, he hasn't demonstrated star impact just yet. No biggie considering he was a 19 y/o rookie. It's to be expected. There's no denying that he was the best player in Dallas, but I fundamentally reject the idea that he can be absolved from the Mavs record while also being regarded as an established star. That is the argument I'm making, and stand by.

FWIW I'm really not at a Luka hater. I'm sure I come off as one in these Doncic/Simmons comparisons but I've already stated that Luka may easily end up with the better career (wouldn't surprise me either way). What I think is ridiculous is that anyone would view him as being "clearly better" than Simmons as is. People can't seem to separate their Luka love/Simmons hate from objective analysis, which I know you've eluded to.

Also, let's not ignore the elephant in the room. We both know your post was thinly veiled praise for your Golden Boy Barea :wink:
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Re: Would 76ers swap Simmons for Doncic if they could? 

Post#211 » by GeorgeMarcus » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:49 am

durden_tyler wrote:Simmons was exposed in the playoffs. He'll eventually be exposed in the regular season too.

Not a scrub by any means but will never be a superstar. Doncic meanwhile is already the Star A in his team.


I'll quote myself from earlier:

GeorgeMarcus wrote:Ben was great in the playoffs. 5.5 BPM, +5.1 on/off, and was our best defender on Kawhi and DLo. 13.9 (62.5 TS%), 7.1 and 6.0 on only 16.6 usg%. I’ve seen this narrative swirling but I don’t get it. Maybe it stems from his series in Boston last year, but I’ll give him a pass for being a rookie.


I don't know what people are talking about when they say he was "exposed" or a "liability". He wasn't. I guess people are looking at the fact that his raw stats decreased from the RS, but that was for 2 reasons:
1) He only played 10 games in the RS with Butler/Tobias/Embiid. There is only 1 basketball.
2) He was given primary defensive responsibilities against the opposing teams' best players. It makes sense to reduce his role offensively, which is reflected in his usage rate.
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Re: Would 76ers swap Simmons for Doncic if they could? 

Post#212 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:51 am

durden_tyler wrote:Simmons was exposed in the playoffs. He'll eventually be exposed in the regular season too.

Not a scrub by any means but will never be a superstar. Doncic meanwhile is already the Star A in his team.



You can't use a guy struggling in the playoffs as a negative when the other guy you're comparing him to didn't make the playoffs.
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Re: Would 76ers swap Simmons for Doncic if they could? 

Post#213 » by cool93 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:45 am

TheNG wrote:Not only they would swap Simmons for Doncic, they would probably also swap Embiid for Doncic.
Lol

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Re: Would 76ers swap Simmons for Doncic if they could? 

Post#214 » by Texas Chuck » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:22 am

GeorgeMarcus wrote: but I fundamentally reject the idea that he can be absolved from the Mavs record while also being regarded as an established star.

Also, let's not ignore the elephant in the room. We both know your post was thinly veiled praise for your Golden Boy Barea :wink:


yeah he's clearly not an established star. He had a very promising rookie year, but he has a long way to go.

And yeah you caught me lol :lol:
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Re: Would 76ers swap Simmons for Doncic if they could? 

Post#215 » by Texas Chuck » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:26 am

cool93 wrote:
TheNG wrote:Not only they would swap Simmons for Doncic, they would probably also swap Embiid for Doncic.
Lol

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I don't believe they would either. And of course if they were willing then Dallas should run far away because it would be a pretty clear sign that the Sixers believe there is still a major medical risk.

Remember trade value can be vastly different from on court ability. Luka is probably the 25-40th best player right now, something like that? But he almost certainly has top 5 trade value when all factors are weighed in. It's really not objectively that laughable a proposition--again speaking in terms of strictly value. I wouldn't expect Philly to want to take a short-term step back in a conference that has Giannis and nothing else between Philly and the Finals. But Luka for Embiid is not an insulting offer by any means.
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Re: Would 76ers swap Simmons for Doncic if they could? 

Post#216 » by NO-KG-AI » Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:14 am

stormi wrote:
NO-KG-AI wrote:
stormi wrote:
How Tatum "sink" all those 3's and still average less points than Ben?


I dunno what that has to do with me, the topic at hand, or Ben's piss poor, god awful shooting that made him look like a scrub come post season time...

And for what it's worth, Tatum is a pretty low bar, but he actually scored more in the playoffs than Simmons so far, not surprisingly.


Tatum is a pretty low bar considering he peaked as a rookie. Enjoy your warchest leading to Martell Webster and Corey Brewer with a flat top.


I'm born and raised in New Orleans, and a Pelicans fan? :lol: :lol:
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Re: Would 76ers swap Simmons for Doncic if they could? 

Post#217 » by NO-KG-AI » Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:15 am

GeorgeMarcus wrote:
durden_tyler wrote:Simmons was exposed in the playoffs. He'll eventually be exposed in the regular season too.

Not a scrub by any means but will never be a superstar. Doncic meanwhile is already the Star A in his team.


I'll quote myself from earlier:

GeorgeMarcus wrote:Ben was great in the playoffs. 5.5 BPM, +5.1 on/off, and was our best defender on Kawhi and DLo. 13.9 (62.5 TS%), 7.1 and 6.0 on only 16.6 usg%. I’ve seen this narrative swirling but I don’t get it. Maybe it stems from his series in Boston last year, but I’ll give him a pass for being a rookie.


I don't know what people are talking about when they say he was "exposed" or a "liability". He wasn't. I guess people are looking at the fact that his raw stats decreased from the RS, but that was for 2 reasons:
1) He only played 10 games in the RS with Butler/Tobias/Embiid. There is only 1 basketball.
2) He was given primary defensive responsibilities against the opposing teams' best players. It makes sense to reduce his role offensively, which is reflected in his usage rate.


His first season ended in utter disaster in the post season.

His second season he played well in the first round and the second round he dropped a whole 11points and 5 assists.
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Re: Would 76ers swap Simmons for Doncic if they could? 

Post#218 » by downtownpie » Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:47 am

NO-KG-AI wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:
durden_tyler wrote:Simmons was exposed in the playoffs. He'll eventually be exposed in the regular season too.

Not a scrub by any means but will never be a superstar. Doncic meanwhile is already the Star A in his team.


I'll quote myself from earlier:

GeorgeMarcus wrote:Ben was great in the playoffs. 5.5 BPM, +5.1 on/off, and was our best defender on Kawhi and DLo. 13.9 (62.5 TS%), 7.1 and 6.0 on only 16.6 usg%. I’ve seen this narrative swirling but I don’t get it. Maybe it stems from his series in Boston last year, but I’ll give him a pass for being a rookie.


I don't know what people are talking about when they say he was "exposed" or a "liability". He wasn't. I guess people are looking at the fact that his raw stats decreased from the RS, but that was for 2 reasons:
1) He only played 10 games in the RS with Butler/Tobias/Embiid. There is only 1 basketball.
2) He was given primary defensive responsibilities against the opposing teams' best players. It makes sense to reduce his role offensively, which is reflected in his usage rate.


His first season ended in utter disaster in the post season.

His second season he played well in the first round and the second round he dropped a whole 11points and 5 assists.


First rounf against Miami he almost ave a triple double. You're a hash marker.

He had 1 bad game vs Boston.

This playoff narrative is lazy.
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Re: Would 76ers swap Simmons for Doncic if they could? 

Post#219 » by NO-KG-AI » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:01 am

Ben averaged 14.4/6.4 with 4.8 turnovers on 47.5% shooting, 0% from 3, just under 70% from the foul line against Boston.

That's a horrible series from an offensive standpoint. The fact that people keep trying to defend the ends to his two post seasons so much is probably part of the reason he doesn't feel like his game needs to change or evolve. Plenty of yes men around telling him he's the next LeBron based on his performances right now.
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Re: Would 76ers swap Simmons for Doncic if they could? 

Post#220 » by LloydFree » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:39 am

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
durden_tyler wrote:Simmons was exposed in the playoffs. He'll eventually be exposed in the regular season too.

Not a scrub by any means but will never be a superstar. Doncic meanwhile is already the Star A in his team.



You can't use a guy struggling in the playoffs as a negative when the other guy you're comparing him to didn't make the playoffs.

Especially when the guy won't make the playoffs again this year.
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