Kobe on Advanced Analytics: "The Game is about Momentum and Pace"

Moderators: ken6199, Dirk, Yuri Vaultin, Domejandro, zimpy27, bwgood77, BombsquadSammy, PockyCandy, Prez

User avatar
ccameron
Pro Prospect
Posts: 966
And1: 766
Joined: Jan 25, 2013

Kobe on Advanced Analytics: "The Game is about Momentum and Pace" 

Post#1 » by ccameron » Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:52 pm

Not sure if there was ever a topic on this, the interview is not new, but Kobe was asked about advanced analytics and the modern game about 8:45 of this interview:



The quote about advanced analytics is:

I think it has a place in the game. I don't think it gives the full answer of why things happen, and how to create momentum. The game really is about momentum, and who can control momentum, more so than numbers. There's the emotion of the game. Who can dictate tempo and pace. Those things are the most important, because those things actually win games.

Numbers look good, and can kind of tell you a story. But the true story lies in the tempo and pacing of the game.


Of course it's not possible to quantify what he is talking about (and that's the point he is making), but intuitively I feel like what he is saying makes sense. Numbers tell part of the story, but they will never tell the full story. It's why you can't say one player is greater than another purely by looking at the numbers (whether simple box score numbers or advanced analytics). I like his point that the numbers can tell a story, but not the whole story. I think some people lose track of this sometimes.

Thoughts?
User avatar
Dominater
RealGM
Posts: 13,329
And1: 18,578
Joined: Jan 16, 2005
Location: NBA Hell

Re: Kobe on Advanced Analytics: "The Game is about Momentum and Pace" 

Post#2 » by Dominater » Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:53 pm

Timing is everything too. Dont tell me what you did, tell me WHEN you did it
Didn't like the Coby White pick. Preferred Rui. Now go out and make me look stupid Coby!
User avatar
clyde21
RealGM
Posts: 35,394
And1: 39,993
Joined: Aug 20, 2014
   

Re: Kobe on Advanced Analytics: "The Game is about Momentum and Pace" 

Post#3 » by clyde21 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:54 pm

momentum is definitely a huge factor that rarely gets discussed/measured in these conversations

Kobe's a smart dude, I can listen to him talk ball for hours
User avatar
MrDollarBills
RealGM
Posts: 29,372
And1: 10,564
Joined: Feb 15, 2008
     

Re: Kobe on Advanced Analytics: "The Game is about Momentum and Pace" 

Post#4 » by MrDollarBills » Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:57 pm

clyde21 wrote:momentum is definitely a huge factor that rarely gets discussed/measured in these conversations

Kobe's a smart dude, I can listen to him talk ball for hours


Same, I love when he's breaking down stuff about the game.
Wear your insides...on the outside,
Show your enemy...what you look like
User avatar
MrDollarBills
RealGM
Posts: 29,372
And1: 10,564
Joined: Feb 15, 2008
     

Re: Kobe on Advanced Analytics: "The Game is about Momentum and Pace" 

Post#5 » by MrDollarBills » Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:59 pm

ccameron wrote:Not sure if there was ever a topic on this, the interview is not new, but Kobe was asked about advanced analytics and the modern game about 8:45 of this interview:



The quote about advanced analytics is:

I think it has a place in the game. I don't think it gives the full answer of why things happen, and how to create momentum. The game really is about momentum, and who can control momentum, more so than numbers. There's the emotion of the game. Who can dictate tempo and pace. Those things are the most important, because those things actually win games.

Numbers look good, and can kind of tell you a story. But the true story lies in the tempo and pacing of the game.


Of course it's not possible to quantify what he is talking about (and that's the point he is making), but intuitively I feel like what he is saying makes sense. Numbers tell part of the story, but they will never tell the full story. It's why you can't say one player is greater than another purely by looking at the numbers (whether simple box score numbers or advanced analytics). I like his point that the numbers can tell a story, but not the whole story. I think some people lose track of this sometimes.

Thoughts?


This is why you cannot use the numbers without proper context. Like on/off, for example.
Wear your insides...on the outside,
Show your enemy...what you look like
User avatar
KyRo23
Senior
Posts: 541
And1: 1,731
Joined: May 07, 2017
 

Re: Kobe on Advanced Analytics: "The Game is about Momentum and Pace" 

Post#6 » by KyRo23 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:02 pm

Kind of rich coming from Kobe, a guy who went for numbers instead of winning for awhile.
User avatar
kobewade11
Veteran
Posts: 2,635
And1: 6,146
Joined: Oct 15, 2017

Re: Kobe on Advanced Analytics: "The Game is about Momentum and Pace" 

Post#7 » by kobewade11 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:06 pm

nobody:


realgm:
KyRo23 wrote:Kind of rich coming from Kobe, a guy who went for numbers instead of winning for awhile.
leolozon
Veteran
Posts: 2,623
And1: 2,465
Joined: Nov 08, 2009

Re: Kobe on Advanced Analytics: "The Game is about Momentum and Pace" 

Post#8 » by leolozon » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:06 pm

I'm not quite sure this has anything to do with analytics. If you've dictated pace to advantage yourself and create momentum... then your team's going to end up having better numbers/analytics. Those two things aren't mutually exclusive.

There's a lot that analytics can't read, but it's not a reason to stop using it. Not knowing everything doesn't mean you shouldn't use any knowledge.

Also, discussion would be boring without analytics :
"I think X is better."
- No Y is better!
-You're wrong! I watched him play and he isn't!
- I watched him play and he is!"
TheGOATWill
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,257
And1: 1,166
Joined: May 16, 2018
       

Re: Kobe on Advanced Analytics: "The Game is about Momentum and Pace" 

Post#9 » by TheGOATWill » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:13 pm

That's what the finals taught us. Injuries aside, Tor did a great job dictating pace. They applied "get best shot you can while making GS defend for 20 seconds without getting suckered into a shooting contest" better than anyone over the past 5 seasons..
User avatar
KyRo23
Senior
Posts: 541
And1: 1,731
Joined: May 07, 2017
 

Re: Kobe on Advanced Analytics: "The Game is about Momentum and Pace" 

Post#10 » by KyRo23 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:15 pm

kobewade11 wrote:nobody:


realgm:
KyRo23 wrote:Kind of rich coming from Kobe, a guy who went for numbers instead of winning for awhile.


I don't think you really know what the "nobody" thing means lol. It was a response to a direct Kobe quote... not out of nowhere.
User avatar
ccameron
Pro Prospect
Posts: 966
And1: 766
Joined: Jan 25, 2013

Re: Kobe on Advanced Analytics: "The Game is about Momentum and Pace" 

Post#11 » by ccameron » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:16 pm

leolozon wrote:I'm not quite sure this has anything to do with analytics. If you've created pace to advantage yourself and create momentum... then your team's going to end up having better numbers/analytics. Those two things aren't mutually exclusive.

There's a lot that analytics can't read, but it's not a reason to stop using it. Not knowing everything doesn't mean you shouldn't use any knowledge.

Also, discussion would be boring without analytics :
"I think X is better."
- No Y is better!
-You're wrong! I watched him play and he isn't!
- I watched him play and he is!"


Perhaps some of the effects of the pace and momentum will appear somewhere in the advanced data, but not all of it. The numbers may not be able to tell if you made a run in garbage time or if you made that run when you were down and your back was against the wall and the other team was playing at 110% intensity, and that obviously matters.
donnieme
Rookie
Posts: 1,089
And1: 1,432
Joined: Feb 27, 2012

Re: Kobe on Advanced Analytics: "The Game is about Momentum and Pace" 

Post#12 » by donnieme » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:18 pm

I wish there was more research into the streakiness of shots to see if it's a thing. By time the law of averages evens out you might be 20 down in a game
User avatar
KyRo23
Senior
Posts: 541
And1: 1,731
Joined: May 07, 2017
 

Re: Kobe on Advanced Analytics: "The Game is about Momentum and Pace" 

Post#13 » by KyRo23 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:19 pm

Nothing says building the momentum like an airball fadeaway 3 over 4 defenders!
User avatar
clyde21
RealGM
Posts: 35,394
And1: 39,993
Joined: Aug 20, 2014
   

Re: Kobe on Advanced Analytics: "The Game is about Momentum and Pace" 

Post#14 » by clyde21 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:23 pm

KyRo23 wrote:Kind of rich coming from Kobe, a guy who went for numbers instead of winning for awhile.


Image
thebigbird
Starter
Posts: 2,242
And1: 4,985
Joined: Jul 11, 2018
 

Re: Kobe on Advanced Analytics: "The Game is about Momentum and Pace" 

Post#15 » by thebigbird » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:24 pm

KyRo23 wrote:Nothing says building the momentum like an airball fadeaway 3 over 4 defenders!

But he did it with that look in his eye!
lakerz12
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,959
And1: 5,009
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Contact:
     

Re: Kobe on Advanced Analytics: "The Game is about Momentum and Pace" 

Post#16 » by lakerz12 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:24 pm

KyRo23 wrote:Nothing says building the momentum like an airball fadeaway 3 over 4 defenders!


Image
User avatar
KyRo23
Senior
Posts: 541
And1: 1,731
Joined: May 07, 2017
 

Re: Kobe on Advanced Analytics: "The Game is about Momentum and Pace" 

Post#17 » by KyRo23 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:25 pm

thebigbird wrote:
KyRo23 wrote:Nothing says building the momentum like an airball fadeaway 3 over 4 defenders!

But he did it with that look in his eye!

He's a killer man! The paint on the rim didn't stand a chance.
Buzzard
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,256
And1: 787
Joined: May 16, 2018
     

Re: Kobe on Advanced Analytics: "The Game is about Momentum and Pace" 

Post#18 » by Buzzard » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:25 pm

He has a point that analytics and advanced stats are not the end all be all. But check this list of MVP players. The common theme I listed is they are all around .550 TS% or better except Iverson. TS% listed is for the year they won it. I don't think it is a accident that the year Kobe won his, was also his 2nd most efficient season.

The ones who won multiple MVP's were all above the .550 thresh hold. Another thing that stood out is how many of these MVPs have never won a Championship. Quite a few of course are still playing.

TS% .644 2018-19 Giannis Antetokounmpo
TS% .619 2017-18 James Harden
TS% .554 2016-17 Russell Westbrook
TS% .669 2015-16 Stephen Curry
TS% .638 2014-15 Stephen Curry
TS% .635 2013-14 Kevin Durant
TS% .640 2012-13 LeBron James
TS% .605 2011-12 LeBron James
TS% .550 2010-11 Derrick Rose
TS% .604 2009-10 LeBron James
TS% .591 2008-09 LeBron James
TS% .576 2007-08 Kobe Bryant
TS% .589 2006-07 Dirk Nowitzki
TS% .606 2005-06 Steve Nash
TS% .632 2004-05 Steve Nash
TS% .547 2003-04 Kevin Garnett
TS% .564 2002-03 Tim Duncan
TS% .576 2001-02 Tim Duncan
TS% .518 2000-01 Allen Iverson
TS% .578 1999-00 Shaquille O'Neal
lakerz12
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,959
And1: 5,009
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Contact:
     

Re: Kobe on Advanced Analytics: "The Game is about Momentum and Pace" 

Post#19 » by lakerz12 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:30 pm

thebigbird wrote:
KyRo23 wrote:Nothing says building the momentum like an airball fadeaway 3 over 4 defenders!

But he did it with that look in his eye!


Is this the look?

Image
Fencer reregistered
RealGM
Posts: 18,925
And1: 6,700
Joined: Oct 25, 2006

Re: Kobe on Advanced Analytics: "The Game is about Momentum and Pace" 

Post#20 » by Fencer reregistered » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:33 pm

The last few years Bob Cousy would occasionally show up to do color commentary on Celtics broadcasts, it was clear that he didn't really keep up with specific players, schemes and so on around the league. Even so, he had uncanny accuracy in, before the end of the first quarter, judging which team was in the frame of mind to win that night's game.

Return to The General Board