The Celtics losing Al Horford was a disaster for them

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Re: The Celtics losing Al Horford was a disaster for them 

Post#121 » by stormi » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:36 pm

bran muffin wrote:
stormi wrote:
"Waive" lmaoooooooooooo.

It's $82.5M/3 with it going to $97M/4 if the Sixers pull a Celtics or $109/4 if they pull a Raptors.

Horford's 4th year of his deal is only partially guaranteed.




If the Sixers keep Horford for 4 years, they pay him $109M. If they keep him for 3 years, they pay him $97M.

There is no scenario where the Sixers pay Horford $97M for 3 years of service. So stop pretending like this is a $97M 4-year contract, because it isn't.


. *sigh* . and the spiral continues

stormi wrote:
bran muffin wrote:
    Year 1: 28.0M guaranteed
    Year 2: 27.5M guaranteed
    Year 3: 27.0M guaranteed
    Year 4: 14.5M guaranteed + 12.0M non-guaranteed


bran muffin wrote:There is no scenario where they pay him $97M for 4 years of service.


It's such an easy contract to comprehend, idk where you're spiraling.

Add the guarantee's up and you get $97M/4.

The non guarantee'd portion of the money is tied to a championship bonus.

If the Sixers do not win a championship during the tenure of his contact, he will have been paid $97 million over four years.
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Re: The Celtics losing Al Horford was a disaster for them 

Post#122 » by Patsfan1081 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:37 pm

stormi wrote:
Panic610 wrote:
stormi wrote:

If it's 4/110 the fans will love every single penny Elton payed out


I doubt fans care that much. After enduring The Process years and really the past 10 years before that, Philly fans just want to win. This is the closest they've been to a championship in my lifetime, outside of the 2001 finals run. But lets be real, they didn't have a real chance at beating that Lakers team 4 times.


The Horford contract is 4/97 with a $12 million bonus if Philadelphia wins a championship once during those years, so it's totally fair. Also Al is the perfect mentor for Embiid and they'll both be able to allow the other to rest in the era of load management, since either can play significant minutes at the 5.

Embiid's been beating up on Noel, Okafor, Amir Johnson, Monroe types since he came into the NBA. Horford is gonna groom him into an untamable monster.


I thought Brand was supposed to be that? Horford never seemed like the mentoring type, he's more of a quiet come to work, keep your head down, and get the job done. He really didn't show any leadership last year when the Celtics were desperate for it.
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Re: The Celtics losing Al Horford was a disaster for them 

Post#123 » by bran muffin » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:42 pm

stormi wrote:It's such an easy contract to comprehend, idk where you're spiraling.

Add the guarantee's up and you get $97M/4.

The non guarantee'd portion of the money is tied to a championship bonus.

If the Sixers do not win a championship during the tenure of his contact, he will have been paid $97 million over four years.



If you understood the CBA at all, you would've realized Woj mispoke when he called the $12M a "bonus" tied to championships.

It is literally impossible for a player to have a $14.5M salary in the 4th year of a contract, if the 3rd year salary was $27.0M. The CBA does not permit for salaries to decrease by such huge amounts. What Woj meant to say is that there is a partial guarantee on the $12M that is tied to championships.

Horford's 4th year salary is $26.5M with $14.5M partially guaranteed. If the Sixers make the finals before then, the guarantee will increase from $14.5M to $19.5M. His salary either way remains at $26.5M.
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Re: The Celtics losing Al Horford was a disaster for them 

Post#124 » by stormi » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:43 pm

Patsfan1081 wrote:
stormi wrote:
Panic610 wrote:
I doubt fans care that much. After enduring The Process years and really the past 10 years before that, Philly fans just want to win. This is the closest they've been to a championship in my lifetime, outside of the 2001 finals run. But lets be real, they didn't have a real chance at beating that Lakers team 4 times.


The Horford contract is 4/97 with a $12 million bonus if Philadelphia wins a championship once during those years, so it's totally fair. Also Al is the perfect mentor for Embiid and they'll both be able to allow the other to rest in the era of load management, since either can play significant minutes at the 5.

Embiid's been beating up on Noel, Okafor, Amir Johnson, Monroe types since he came into the NBA. Horford is gonna groom him into an untamable monster.


I thought Brand was supposed to be that? Horford never seemed like the mentoring type, he's more of a quiet come to work, keep your head down, and get the job done. He really didn't show any leadership last year when the Celtics were desperate for it.


He doesn't have to be the vocal leader, we already have Joel Embiid for that.

I'm talking about getting to practice against him every day. Horford has been touted as the Embiid stopper and now Embiid will get to learn from the only man who can slow him down. Training with and against him every day and learning his savvy vet secrets will push him to levels we haven't seen from Embiid.
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Re: The Celtics losing Al Horford was a disaster for them 

Post#125 » by Patsfan1081 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:43 pm

With or without Al Boston was going to need one of their young big men to take a step forward. They're going to need one of the Williams's or Theis to develope and play decent minutes then they can prob make a move for a big man at the deadline also.
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Re: The Celtics losing Al Horford was a disaster for them 

Post#126 » by Patsfan1081 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:43 pm

With or without Al Boston was going to need one of their young big men to take a step forward. They're going to need one of the Williams's or Theis to develope and play decent minutes then they can prob make a move for a big man at the deadline also.
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Re: The Celtics losing Al Horford was a disaster for them 

Post#127 » by stormi » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:45 pm

bran muffin wrote:
stormi wrote:It's such an easy contract to comprehend, idk where you're spiraling.

Add the guarantee's up and you get $97M/4.

The non guarantee'd portion of the money is tied to a championship bonus.

If the Sixers do not win a championship during the tenure of his contact, he will have been paid $97 million over four years.



If you understood the CBA at all, you would've realized Woj mispoke when he called the $12M a "bonus" tied to championships.

It is literally impossible for a player to have a $14.5M salary in the 4th year of a contract, if the 3rd year salary was $27.0M. The CBA does not permit for salaries to decrease by such huge amounts. What Woj meant to say is that there is a partial guarantee on the $12M that is tied to championships.

Horford's 4th year salary is $26.5M with $14.5M partially guaranteed. If the Sixers make the finals before then, the guarantee will increase from $14.5M to $19.5M. His salary either way remains at $26.5M.


spiral spiral spiral.
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Re: The Celtics losing Al Horford was a disaster for them 

Post#128 » by giberish » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:55 pm

stormi wrote:
bran muffin wrote:
stormi wrote:It's such an easy contract to comprehend, idk where you're spiraling.

Add the guarantee's up and you get $97M/4.

The non guarantee'd portion of the money is tied to a championship bonus.

If the Sixers do not win a championship during the tenure of his contact, he will have been paid $97 million over four years.



If you understood the CBA at all, you would've realized Woj mispoke when he called the $12M a "bonus" tied to championships.

It is literally impossible for a player to have a $14.5M salary in the 4th year of a contract, if the 3rd year salary was $27.0M. The CBA does not permit for salaries to decrease by such huge amounts. What Woj meant to say is that there is a partial guarantee on the $12M that is tied to championships.

Horford's 4th year salary is $26.5M with $14.5M partially guaranteed. If the Sixers make the finals before then, the guarantee will increase from $14.5M to $19.5M. His salary either way remains at $26.5M.


spiral spiral spiral.


This looks like explaining something simply and clearly to someone who is deliberately choosing not to understand.

Put this another way. 4 years from now, with Embiid, Harris and Simmons on 25% or 30% max deals, and JRich perhaps resigned to more then his current bargain deal as well, a 36 year old Horford will either be paid $26.5M to play for Philly, or else be paid $14.5M not to play for Philly (the not playing option might be taken away from Philly based on winning).

Either way is a bad luxury tax issue for Philly. Might be worth it for the short-term winning but the last two years (as Simmons and Richardson get paid) will be a problem.
Either option is a bad luxury tax problem.
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Re: The Celtics losing Al Horford was a disaster for them 

Post#129 » by bran muffin » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:01 am

giberish wrote:
stormi wrote:
bran muffin wrote:

If you understood the CBA at all, you would've realized Woj mispoke when he called the $12M a "bonus" tied to championships.

It is literally impossible for a player to have a $14.5M salary in the 4th year of a contract, if the 3rd year salary was $27.0M. The CBA does not permit for salaries to decrease by such huge amounts. What Woj meant to say is that there is a partial guarantee on the $12M that is tied to championships.

Horford's 4th year salary is $26.5M with $14.5M partially guaranteed. If the Sixers make the finals before then, the guarantee will increase from $14.5M to $19.5M. His salary either way remains at $26.5M.


spiral spiral spiral.


This looks like explaining something simply and clearly to someone who is deliberately choosing not to understand.


Thanks for your help. But don't waste your time trying to explain Horford's contract to him like I did.

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Re: The Celtics losing Al Horford was a disaster for them 

Post#130 » by stormi » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:08 am

giberish wrote:
stormi wrote:
bran muffin wrote:

If you understood the CBA at all, you would've realized Woj mispoke when he called the $12M a "bonus" tied to championships.

It is literally impossible for a player to have a $14.5M salary in the 4th year of a contract, if the 3rd year salary was $27.0M. The CBA does not permit for salaries to decrease by such huge amounts. What Woj meant to say is that there is a partial guarantee on the $12M that is tied to championships.

Horford's 4th year salary is $26.5M with $14.5M partially guaranteed. If the Sixers make the finals before then, the guarantee will increase from $14.5M to $19.5M. His salary either way remains at $26.5M.


spiral spiral spiral.


This looks like explaining something simply and clearly to someone who is deliberately choosing not to understand.

Put this another way. 4 years from now, with Embiid, Harris and Simmons on 25% or 30% max deals, and JRich perhaps resigned to more then his current bargain deal as well, a 36 year old Horford will either be paid $26.5M to play for Philly, or else be paid $14.5M not to play for Philly (the not playing option might be taken away from Philly based on winning).

Either way is a bad luxury tax issue for Philly. Might be worth it for the short-term winning but the last two years (as Simmons and Richardson get paid) will be a problem.
Either option is a bad luxury tax problem.


He doesn't know what he's talking about. I should have clued in when he was talking about Horford getting "waived" after 3 years.
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Re: The Celtics losing Al Horford was a disaster for them 

Post#131 » by SlowPaced » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:59 am

They need to develop Robert Williams. Really high on that guy, great defensive potential.
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Re: The Celtics losing Al Horford was a disaster for them 

Post#132 » by John Murdoch » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:13 am

SlowPaced wrote:They need to develop Robert Williams. Really high on that guy, great defensive potential.


U def are , dude cant even show up on time
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Re: The Celtics losing Al Horford was a disaster for them 

Post#133 » by patman52 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:50 am

picc wrote:Kept forgetting, but i've been watching some of the '18 and '19 playoff games and MAN he was a beast, on both ends.

They basically swapped Kyrie for Kemba, which is a lateral move imo. But it wasnt Kyrie who was the Celtics most important player last year, it was Horford. He was the defensive anchor, the 2nd offensive anchor, locker room and floor leader, and swiss army forward who could guard anyone from Embiid to D'angelo Russell on switches.

I think the C's are kind of screwed without him. He wont help Philly as much as he helped Boston, imo, but on that team he was indispensable. Dont see anyone being able to make up half of what he did for them.


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Re: The Celtics losing Al Horford was a disaster for them 

Post#134 » by jason bourne » Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:05 am

itrsteve wrote:
jason bourne wrote:I just checked projected wins and the Celtics are down from 49 in 2019 to 45 in 2020. Pacers, Nets, Raptors, Sixers, etc. ahead of them. No wonder GM Danny Ainge was beotchin, beotchin, beotchin about tampering, but Silver didn't do squat.


Honestly, I don’t even know why anybody bothers to play the game now. Just make signings and trades then let the deadly accurate computer models play the season out. It would certainly save us a ton of time.


I go by team projections and some past history, but usually for the players. There is a lot of stuff in the analytics, and that makes evaluations of players and NBA fantasy interesting. Still, we do not know what will happen during the playoffs since it's different. We don't know what the health of the teams will be. We don't know if there will be a big trade. We don't know if a rookie will storm the league. The regular season should follow the analytics, but there is still the great unknown.
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Re: The Celtics losing Al Horford was a disaster for them 

Post#135 » by Soulyss » Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:17 am

I don't see how Boston doesn't try to pry Steven Adams away from OKC somehow... He would be the perfect salve for the loss of Horford
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Re: The Celtics losing Al Horford was a disaster for them 

Post#136 » by Metallikid » Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:38 am

GeorgeMarcus wrote:
Metallikid wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:
Not a chance imo. Last year he was held to unrealistic expectations because they outperformed expectations by so much the previous year.


Idk man he's had six seasons (will be seven) and he's just been lucky enough to get the non-LeBron side of the bracket the two years they got to the Eastern Conference Finals. I think overall he's underperformed for how much he's touted as one of the best coaches in the league. Remember, Dwane Casey got seven seasons to get over the hump and we all know how that went.


He won close to 50 games with IT, Avery Bradley, Jae Crowder and Kelly Olynyk lol Then they made the ECF with Rozier/JB/rookie Tatum/Morris/Horford. I hear what you’re saying but I don’t think one season should outweigh every other season that the Celtics have overachieved.

Regarding Casey, I think he would have won with the same roster Nurse had this year. Poor guy...


Wow I'm really surprised to hear that coming from you. We wouldn't have even beaten you guys with Dwane 'Pound the Rock' Casey.

Put some respect on Nick Nurse's name. Box-And-1 Baby!
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Re: The Celtics losing Al Horford was a disaster for them 

Post#137 » by Bad-Thoma » Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:39 am

bran muffin wrote:
stormi wrote:
"Waive" lmaoooooooooooo.

It's $82.5M/3 with it going to $97M/4 if the Sixers pull a Celtics or $109/4 if they pull a Raptors.

Horford's 4th year of his deal is only partially guaranteed.




If the Sixers keep Horford for 4 years, they pay him $109M. If they keep him for 3 years, they pay him $97M.

There is no scenario where the Sixers pay Horford $97M for 4 years of service. So stop pretending like this is a $97M 4-year contract, because it isn't.


The 4th year is partially guaranteed, it's low 4/97, high 4/109.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/philadelphia-76ers/al-horford-2199/
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Re: The Celtics losing Al Horford was a disaster for them 

Post#138 » by GeorgeMarcus » Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:45 am

Metallikid wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:
Metallikid wrote:
Idk man he's had six seasons (will be seven) and he's just been lucky enough to get the non-LeBron side of the bracket the two years they got to the Eastern Conference Finals. I think overall he's underperformed for how much he's touted as one of the best coaches in the league. Remember, Dwane Casey got seven seasons to get over the hump and we all know how that went.


He won close to 50 games with IT, Avery Bradley, Jae Crowder and Kelly Olynyk lol Then they made the ECF with Rozier/JB/rookie Tatum/Morris/Horford. I hear what you’re saying but I don’t think one season should outweigh every other season that the Celtics have overachieved.

Regarding Casey, I think he would have won with the same roster Nurse had this year. Poor guy...


Wow I'm really surprised to hear that coming from you. We wouldn't have even beaten you guys with Dwane 'Pound the Rock' Casey.

Put some respect on Nick Nurse's name. Box-And-1 Baby!


:lol: That wasn't intended to be a slight on Nurse, I just think your roster was that good. But given how close the Sixers series was you might have a point. It's hard to reconcile the win totals Casey put up with those DeRozan teams with the duds he put up in the playoffs.
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Re: The Celtics losing Al Horford was a disaster for them 

Post#139 » by giberish » Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:52 am

Bad-Thoma wrote:
bran muffin wrote:
stormi wrote:
"Waive" lmaoooooooooooo.

It's $82.5M/3 with it going to $97M/4 if the Sixers pull a Celtics or $109/4 if they pull a Raptors.

Horford's 4th year of his deal is only partially guaranteed.




If the Sixers keep Horford for 4 years, they pay him $109M. If they keep him for 3 years, they pay him $97M.

There is no scenario where the Sixers pay Horford $97M for 4 years of service. So stop pretending like this is a $97M 4-year contract, because it isn't.


The 4th year is partially guaranteed, it's low 4/97, high 4/109.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/philadelphia-76ers/al-horford-2199/


It's $97M over 4 years only if Horford is waived before the 4th year. The money is still spread out over 4 years, with the 4th year being a $14.5M dead weight contract hit without Horford on the roster. That's what a partial guarantee means. If Horford is playing under the contract during the 4th year he gets paid $26.5M.

This is just not complicated. It's how partially guaranteed deals work. It's not new or unusual.
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Re: The Celtics losing Al Horford was a disaster for them 

Post#140 » by giberish » Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:57 am

stormi wrote:
giberish wrote:
stormi wrote:
spiral spiral spiral.


This looks like explaining something simply and clearly to someone who is deliberately choosing not to understand.

Put this another way. 4 years from now, with Embiid, Harris and Simmons on 25% or 30% max deals, and JRich perhaps resigned to more then his current bargain deal as well, a 36 year old Horford will either be paid $26.5M to play for Philly, or else be paid $14.5M not to play for Philly (the not playing option might be taken away from Philly based on winning).

Either way is a bad luxury tax issue for Philly. Might be worth it for the short-term winning but the last two years (as Simmons and Richardson get paid) will be a problem.
Either option is a bad luxury tax problem.


He doesn't know what he's talking about. I should have clued in when he was talking about Horford getting "waived" after 3 years.


How is that possibly confusing?

If Horford isn't waived after the 3rd year and plays all 4 years of the deal then the deal is a 4yr/$109M contract. Very simple.

Philly (or some other team that trades for him), can't choose to only pay him $14.5M for the last year of the deal and still have him on their roster.

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